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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture The evidence for married Welsh clergy is largely in genealogical records: whether the institutional church accepted these marriages or not, they were clearly accepted by secular society. There's a famous case (I haven't got the reference to hand) of the archdeacon of Anglesey who petitioned Edward II to set aside restrictions in Welsh law so that his daughter could inherit his land because he had no sons. Married abbots crop up in the C16, the best known being the sons of Robert ap Rhys of Foelas (who was himself a priest and Wolsey's chaplain and cross-bearer - someone Mantel missed!) In a wider European context, there's someting in the Montaillou depositions about the diocese in the Pyrenees which accepted clerical marriage - Pierre Clergue and Beatrice de Planissoles were going to go there - and I've come across references to clerical marriage in upstate Saxony (I'd have to look for those as well I'm afraid) Maddy Madeleine Gray PhD, FRHistS, FSA Professor of Ecclesiastical History/Athro Hanes Eglwysig School of Humanities and Social Sciences /Ysgol Ddyniaethau a Gwyddoniaethau Cymdeithasol University of South Wales/Prifysgol De Cymru Caerleon Campus/Campws Caerllion, Newport/Casnewydd NP18 3QT Tel: +44 (0)1633.432675 http://www.southwales.ac.uk http://twitter.com/penrhyspilgrim http://twitter.com/HeritageUSW http://twitter.com/USWHistory 'Let the victors, when they come, When the forts of folly fall, Find thy body by the wall!' ________________________________________ From: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious culture [[log in to unmask]] on behalf of Pat Cullum [[log in to unmask]] Sent: Friday, January 30, 2015 9:17 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [M-R] MEDIEVAL-RELIGION Digest - 28 Jan 2015 to 29 Jan 2015 (#2015-30) medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture My sense of the situation in England (and I'd like to hear from Maddy about her marrying Welsh clerics) in the C14 and C15 that it was clear that deacons and priests could not marry, but that there was more uncertainty about sub-deacons.Technically they could not marry, but I suspect that in practice not all of them saw themselves as committed to a clerical career.We also ought to remember that these were mostly young men- in their teens and early 20s, and so like their lay peers some of them courted, more or less seriously. Dr Pat Cullum BA (Hons) DPhil FRHistS, FHEA School Co-ordinator for Student Experience School of Music, Humanities and Media University of Huddersfield HUDDERSFIELD HD1 3DH West Yorkshire UK Tel: + 44 (0)1484 472315 Fax: + 44 (0) 1484 472655 Email: [log in to unmask] www.hud.ac.uk/mhm/history/ ________________________________________ From: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious culture [[log in to unmask]] on behalf of MEDIEVAL-RELIGION automatic digest system [[log in to unmask]] Sent: 30 January 2015 00:10 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: MEDIEVAL-RELIGION Digest - 28 Jan 2015 to 29 Jan 2015 (#2015-30) There are 2 messages totaling 423 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. deacons - marriage and functions (2) ********************************************************************** To join the list, send the message: subscribe medieval-religion YOUR NAME to: [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, address it to: [log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the message: unsubscribe medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: [log in to unmask] For further information, visit our web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/medieval-religion ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2015 16:12:12 -0000 From: Ms B M Cook <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: deacons - marriage and functions medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture Just to clarify, the prohibition on marriage only applies to the Orders in the Roman Catholic Church. In the Church of England, all three Orders, Bishop, Priest and Deacon may marry – and indeed can now be woman. Brenda M. Cook Independent Scholar From: Jaye Procure Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2015 2:16 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [M-R] deacons - marriage and functions medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture Meg Just to clarify your question. Deacons cannot marry, even now, however married men may become deacons. Jaye On 27 January 2015 at 18:20, Jane Stemp Wickenden <[log in to unmask]> wrote: medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture Margaret, You may have found this page here, but I send it just in case not. Best wishes, Jane On 27/01/2015 21:24, Cormack, Margaret Jean wrote: medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture Greetings all, Does anyone know or can you suggest good material (not Wikipedia, which I can access on my own) on the question of when and where in the Catholic tradition deacons were allowed to marry? I have Icelandic references to the (attempted?) introduction of deaconal celibacy. I'd also be interested in any good studies of the deaconate in the early church, and of the changes introduced in Vatican 2, whereby they are allowed to baptize and marry people (as well as being married, but apparently not re=marry if their wife dies.) Thanks to all, Meg ********************************************************************** To join the list, send the message: subscribe medieval-religion YOUR NAME to: [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, address it to: [log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the message: unsubscribe medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: [log in to unmask] For further information, visit our web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/medieval-religion ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2015 14:17:39 -0500 From: Jaye Procure <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: deacons - marriage and functions medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture True enough, but the OP did refer to the Catholic tradition. Jaye On 29 January 2015 at 11:12, Ms B M Cook <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture > Just to clarify, the prohibition on marriage only applies to the Orders > in the Roman Catholic Church. In the Church of England, all three Orders, > Bishop, Priest and Deacon may marry – and indeed can now be woman. > > Brenda M. Cook > Independent Scholar > > *From:* Jaye Procure <[log in to unmask]> > *Sent:* Wednesday, January 28, 2015 2:16 AM > *To:* [log in to unmask] > *Subject:* Re: [M-R] deacons - marriage and functions > > medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture > Meg > > Just to clarify your question. Deacons cannot marry, even now, however > married men may become deacons. > > Jaye > > On 27 January 2015 at 18:20, Jane Stemp Wickenden < > [log in to unmask]> wrote: > >> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture >> Margaret, >> >> You may have found this page here >> <http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cclergy/documents/rc_con_cclergy_doc_01011993_chisto_en.html>, >> but I send it just in case not. >> >> Best wishes, >> >> Jane >> >> >> >> On 27/01/2015 21:24, Cormack, Margaret Jean wrote: >> >> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture >> >> Greetings all, >> Does anyone know or can you suggest good material (not Wikipedia, which I can access on my own) >> on the question of when and where in the Catholic tradition deacons were allowed to marry? I have Icelandic references to the (attempted?) introduction of deaconal celibacy. I'd also be interested in any good studies of the deaconate in the early church, and of the changes introduced in Vatican 2, whereby they are allowed to baptize and marry people (as well as being married, but apparently not re=marry if their wife dies.) >> Thanks to all, >> Meg >> >> ********************************************************************** To > join the list, send the message: subscribe medieval-religion YOUR NAME to: > [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, address it to: > [log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the message: > unsubscribe medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In order to > report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: > [log in to unmask] For further information, visit > our web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/medieval-religion > -- Selfishness is not living as one wishes to live, it is asking others to live as one wishes to live. - Oscar Wilde <http://www.quotationspage.com/quote/29590.html> Please check out my blog: http://catholicanuck.blogspot.com And www.saintgabriels.ca ********************************************************************** To join the list, send the message: subscribe medieval-religion YOUR NAME to: [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, address it to: [log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the message: unsubscribe medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: [log in to unmask] For further information, visit our web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/medieval-religion ------------------------------ End of MEDIEVAL-RELIGION Digest - 28 Jan 2015 to 29 Jan 2015 (#2015-30) *********************************************************************** University of Huddersfield inspiring tomorrow's professionals. 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