Peter, I can't answer your questions, but have found your crunching down the matters rather provocative.  I'm decidedly on the wrong list -- am USAmerican born (tho now living in the UK), am a playwright who writes poetic stretches in plays, and regard most poetry (yes, most poetry) as sometimes engaging, playful blow-ups of an element or two of that which makes up poetry.  And, thoroughly non-BritPo, I guess, my poet faves are Mary Sidney ('Shakespeare', as her works are known) in the poetic bits of her plays but not her sonnets, as well as some parts of the musical DT's 'Fern Hill'.  Others' poetry, from time to time, I 'like very much' but not so completely and utterly as Mary Sidney's. 

And I explode with boredom when folks try to categorise and list-ise poetry and poets (tho I happily and seriously do it m'sel').  I do read all these threads and contemplate what's behind and around them, usually wonder what in the world you lot are going on about.  ;-)

Best, Judy 

On 3 December 2014 at 23:42, Peter Riley <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

Re Tim:
"whenever you talk of the avant-garde you limit them to one particular section with which you have had profound disagreements" 

I don't think this is right. (I don't think "Cambridge" was avant-garde at all. Avant-garde or experimental in  those days was stuff like Finlay, Cobbing, Rot, Dada, ... than which not much could be further away.) I'm well aware of the varieties, and endless proliferation. 

Why I'm here is I would like to see a statement from someone willing to be called avant-gardiste, about why she finds it necessary or important, now, to write in this way, and to say this without reference to the dreaded philosophical book-list which John mentioned, or any other authorities on the human condition or on language, and without dragging in politics, and not a purely negative claim based on disdain for "mainstream". Just a straightforward why it is, about being read by people and how they should benefit. Or, why a writing which cannot, and is not allowed to, say. What is wrong with saying? Surely everyone must have thought about this. I'm waiting. 

Pr