This is a vast oversimplification of history, Sean. Like, that Mexico was hardly our first imperialist adventure. And the special relationship has varied in its impact--it was British money that funded the settlement of the west and built the railroads, and that dominated the US economy until 1890, and it was the decision of the London banks not to back the confederacy that won the war for the north. But I'll restrict my comments to the immediate situation in Scotland preceding the referendum. The area around the Clyde estuary west of Glasgow voted no, and tipped the scale. There were two factors in this that are at odds with your interpretation, neither of them very pretty. One is that the area is a stronghold of the Orangemen. The other is that the major industry in the area is the trident base. I was in Helensburgh a couple of days before the referendum. The talk was all about the economic impact if there were a yes vote and the base was closed. And the area's Orange lodges made their opinion eminently clear with marches and political organizing. Economic insecurity motivated the vote in that area, and sectarian prejudice. I don't think US interests had much to do with it.
-----Original Message-----
From: Sean Carey
Sent: Dec 17, 2014 4:39 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Nationalism Will Always Exist
But when nationalist hate and violence create death and injuries and end up destroying jobs then we must simply say No. Within Socialist thought since the sixties or earlier Internationalism was sidelined. Many genuine radicals thought entering nationalist parties would change them via entryism. Sadly many died or suffered serious injuries as a result. The internal nationalist party structures do not tolerate debate while their paramilitary wings are rooted in a tiny cabal calling the shots.
In my own time running literary groups I kept an open door policy which upheld the right to free speech for all. To exclude any political view I could never allow and if people found listening to poets or bands or singers who supported violence they had the option to leave. Many poets indeed are nationalists with indeed many famous writers fascists. That term in a 2014 context sounds corny but a lot of people in the world detest democracy. They would prefer a strong man or woman in power with no elections. Modern fascists do not wear brown shirts or indeed W.B. Yeats' blue hue. There is no Mosley holding mass meetings or street battles between left and right. Ireland has no Eoin O' Duffy but far smoother operators in designer kit.
The benefits of "The Special Relationship" with America only works in America's interest. To keep Europe divided has always been an American ploy and the dollars that helped kill and maim in Birmingham indeed crossed the Atlantic. America started its imperial adventures in Mexico where its role is still dubious. Rather than pull clear of Europe Britain should pull closer to the E.U. which contains nations who view America with deep mistrust. Under Obama America has tried to retreat but the real action East of Suez keeps getting in the way. I am sure the State Dept. look with favour on UKIP and their European role models in Golden Dawn and the French National Front. These groups help America's interest.
Poets can help by opposing the drift to fascist rule on these islands by pointing out that we live in times of huge danger. Poems in themselves can inspire young and old to join those who oppose 2014 right wing thinking. In the past poems helped to expose false promises and lynch mob tactics.
Sent from AOL Mobile Mail
-----Original Message-----
From: Tim Allen <
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To: BRITISH-IRISH-POETS <
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Sent: Tue, Dec 16, 2014 12:01 PM
Subject: Re: The wily Alex
I agree with you Mark. I know the line that Sean takes on it, and David too to an extent, is the view of a portion of what we might call the intelligencia (there Dave - your one of the inteligencia) but it is not a generally held view by people in general and certainly not the media. Nationalist parties are always a strange mix and I don't think they can be categorised all together but need to be looked at in their own contexts. I don't fully trust Salmond but I don't fully trust anybody else either. In contradiction to Sean I think there are genuine socialist strands within the SNP and cynic though I am I really don't think this is false front - Nicola Sturgeon seems genuine to me. There are, I admit, non-socialist and even anti strands within it but the bulk of Scotland is not behind them. I personally don't want Scotland to go independent because I would much rather be a citizen of a country that included it, for a whole raft of reasons.
The UKIP thing is something else. I loathe them, but at the same time they do reflect the views of many. They have given a stronger voice to a nasty strand of thinking that has always existed in this fair land and made it OK to express thinly veiled racist and thuggy rightist opinions under a dangerously populist banner. Most of all I don't like the way the other parties are pandering to this, particularly Labour. I know that this is a matter of political strategy etc but I still don't like it and don't think it will do any good in the long run. I believe that when faced with vile opinions, especially ones based on scapegoating, you should counter them directly and stop worrying about the tabloids and opinion poles. The media, especially TV, has much to blame for the rise of UKIP - they early on saw Farage as good viewing material and, being the media, that's all they were concerned with. They never miss an opportunity to have him on the screen.
As for your own fair land - well, it's really pleasing when your democracy actually works for once, as with the recent Senate committee report on the CIA - such openness would never happen here. The torture revelations are no surprise of course - we have known for years about this stuff. And as it has always done, everything points to the Brits being complicit - Blair, Straw, DAVID Miliband at the top and countless others down the line all look as guilty as hell but I very much doubt if anything ever comes of it. I doubt too that Rifkind would be so eager to uncover secrets if it had been a Conservative government in power at the time. But there you go. It's never publicly said but we all know that David Miliband would probably be the current leader of the Labour Party if he was not so closely associated with rendition.
Bloody politics. Let's get back to something full of warmth and peaceful thoughts like poetry.
Cheers and Happy Christmas to all my readers.
Tim
On 15 Dec 2014, at 21:37, Mark Weiss wrote:
I spent the month before the referendum and the two weeks after in Glasgow. This is decidedly not what I heard or saw.
-----Original Message-----
From: Sean Carey
Sent: Dec 15, 2014 10:22 AM
To:
[log in to unmask]
Subject: The wily Alex
Salmond assumes a lot and in his timing on the Yes or No vote miscalulated. The SNP is rooted in conservative thinking with their core support among well paid workers who would be happy to lose Labour or socialist thinking. It is their view that poverty is just a scam that they pay for with their taxes. They like the SNP because it rids them of Labour and English liberalism in a split from London. UKIP and the Celtic Nationalists are not and never were socialists. Their roots are in Italian 19th century nationalism. I see no trace of John MacLean in the SNP brand but a lot of Garibaldi.