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Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2014 22:14:43 +0000
Reply-To: British & Irish poets <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: British & Irish poets <[log in to unmask]>
From: Peter Riley <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Ralph Maud
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Ralph Maud has died at the age of 86. Dylan Thomas scholar, Charles
Olson scholar, familiar and friend of many British and American
poets. Last time I saw him he was moving round Britain with an
enormous print-out in his luggage trying to create a second replica of
Olson's library.
PR
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<html><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">Ralph Maud has died at the age of 86. Dylan Thomas scholar, Charles Olson scholar, familiar and friend of many British and American poets. Last time I saw him he was moving round Britain with an enormous print-out in his luggage trying to create a <i>second </i>replica of Olson's library. <div><br></div><div>PR</div>
</body></html>
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=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2014 17:29:26 -0500
Reply-To: British & Irish poets <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: British & Irish poets <[log in to unmask]>
From: Mark Weiss <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Ralph Maud
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<head><style>body{font-family: Geneva,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:9pt;background-color: #ffffff;color: black;}</style></head><body id="compText">Sorry to hear it.<br><br><blockquote style="padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 0px; border-left: #0000ff 2px solid; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-size: 10pt; font-family: arial,sans-serif; color: black;">-----Original Message-----
<br>From: Peter Riley <[log in to unmask]>
<br>Sent: Dec 11, 2014 5:14 PM
<br>To: [log in to unmask]
<br>Subject: Ralph Maud
<br><br><zzzhtml><zzzbody style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">Ralph Maud has died at the age of 86. Dylan Thomas scholar, Charles Olson scholar, familiar and friend of many British and American poets. Last time I saw him he was moving round Britain with an enormous print-out in his luggage trying to create a <i>second </i>replica of Olson's library. <div><br></div><div>PR</div>
</zzzbody></zzzhtml><[log in to unmask]></blockquote></body>
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2014 00:54:02 -0500
Reply-To: British & Irish poets <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: British & Irish poets <[log in to unmask]>
From: Robert Kelly <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: BRITISH-IRISH-POETS Digest - 10 Dec 2014 to 11 Dec 2014
(#2014-33)
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=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2014 08:06:06 +0000
Reply-To: British & Irish poets <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: British & Irish poets <[log in to unmask]>
From: GOODBY JOHN <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Ralph Maud
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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Terribly sorry to hear about Ralph's death. I know nothing of his work on
Olson, but his first career, as it were, was as a pioneering Dylan Thomas
scholar and that's how I knew and will remember him.
Our only meeting was at a Thomas symposium I helped organise in Swansea in
1998. Ralph turned up, and was enthusiastically supportive, made a virtuoso
contribution in a paper on 'A saint about to fall', and gave me a copy of
his seminal study, Entrances to Dylan Thomas' Poetry (1963). He didn't
agree with the application of modern critical theory to Thomas in a New
Casebook I co-edited with Chris Wigginton in 2001, and a friendship didn't
develop; but his work (along with that of Walford Davies) was the bedrock
on which all subsequent scholarship on Thomas has been built, and I
retained a huge respect for him - my study The Poetry of Dylan Thomas:
Under the Spelling Wall (2013) and new Collected Poems (2014) are greatly
in his debt. He edited the Broadcasts in 1991, and co-edited what was for
twenty-six years the standard UK edition of the Collected Poems (with
Walford Davies in 1988); he also co-edited, again with Walford Davies, a
definitive edition of Under Milk Wood. In 2003 he brought out poem-by-poem
guide titled Where Have The Old Words Got Me? - a book that, despite its
occasional lapses, is still the sanest and most useful of its kind.
His most remarkable contribution to Thomas scholarship, Entrances aside,
was his edition of the four Dylan Thomas notebooks. These had been bought
by the Special Poetry Collection at SUNY Buffalo in 1941, but previously
only seen by scholars. Ralph's edition appeared in 1967 in the US and in
1968 in the UK (as Poet in the Making) and was a model of painstaking and
enlightening scholarship; for the first time it revealed exactly how Thomas
had gone about forging the 'process' style of 18 Poems. (Ralph's
acknowledgements include one, of particular interest to members of this
list otherwise uninterested in Thomas, to 'Jeremy Prynne, whose eyes I have
used on the manuscript at various times.') He would have been enthralled by
the newly-discovered fifth notebook, a direct chronological continuation of
the four he edited, which was bought at Sotheby's earlier this week by
Swansea University.
I thought his work on Thomas (and Olson, when I read it, as I now will)
would be all I'd know about Ralph; but last year I was at a get-together at
Leeds University of former editors of Poetry & Audience, the UK's
longest-running student poetry magazine, to mark its 60th anniversary. It
transpired that P&A was founded by Ralph when he was postgraduate student
at Leeds - tales survive in the folk memory of the School of English of him
hand-printing the first issues and managing to sell them on the street to
passers-by, as well as to fellow-students. It must have been among the very
first stirrings of the poetic ferment at Leeds that later included Geoffrey
Hill, Tony Harrison, Jon Silkin and the rest. 1953 was also the year of
Thomas's death, which may or may not be a coincidence: whatever, I'd like
to think of Ralph's founding of P&A as an example of 'the force' that
'blasts the roots of trees' simultaneously being the one that 'through the
green fuse drives the flower'.
On 11 December 2014 at 22:14, Peter Riley <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> Ralph Maud has died at the age of 86. Dylan Thomas scholar, Charles Olson
> scholar, familiar and friend of many British and American poets. Last time
> I saw him he was moving round Britain with an enormous print-out in his
> luggage trying to create a *second *replica of Olson's library.
>
> PR
>
--089e01634d3461cb0c050a005dd5
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<div dir=3D"ltr">Terribly sorry to hear about Ralph's death. I know not=
hing of his work on Olson, but his first career, as it were, was as a pione=
ering Dylan Thomas scholar and that's how I knew and will remember him.=
=C2=A0<div><br></div><div>Our only meeting was at a Thomas symposium I help=
ed organise in Swansea in 1998. Ralph turned up, and was enthusiastically s=
upportive, made a virtuoso contribution in a paper on 'A saint about to=
fall', and gave me a copy of his seminal study, Entrances to Dylan Tho=
mas' Poetry (1963). He didn't agree with the application of modern =
critical theory to Thomas in a New Casebook I co-edited with Chris Wigginto=
n in 2001, and a friendship didn't develop; but his work (along with th=
at of Walford Davies) was the bedrock on which all subsequent scholarship o=
n Thomas has been built, and I retained a huge respect for him - my study T=
he Poetry of Dylan Thomas: Under the Spelling Wall (2013) and new Collected=
Poems (2014) are greatly in his debt. He edited the Broadcasts in 1991, an=
d co-edited what was for twenty-six years the standard UK edition of the Co=
llected Poems (with Walford Davies in 1988); he also co-edited, again with =
Walford Davies, a definitive edition of Under Milk Wood. In 2003 he brought=
out poem-by-poem guide titled Where Have The Old Words Got Me? - a book th=
at, despite its occasional lapses, is still the sanest and most useful of i=
ts kind.</div><div><br></div><div>His most remarkable contribution to Thoma=
s scholarship, Entrances aside, was his edition of the four Dylan Thomas no=
tebooks. These had been bought by the Special Poetry Collection at SUNY Buf=
falo in 1941, but previously only seen by scholars. Ralph's edition app=
eared in 1967 in the US and in 1968 in the UK (as Poet in the Making) and w=
as a model of painstaking and enlightening scholarship; for the first time =
it revealed exactly how Thomas had gone about forging the 'process'=
style of 18 Poems. (Ralph's acknowledgements include one, of particula=
r interest to members of this list otherwise uninterested in Thomas, to =
9;Jeremy Prynne, whose eyes I have used on the manuscript at various times.=
') He would have been enthralled by the newly-discovered fifth notebook=
, a direct chronological continuation of the four he edited, which was boug=
ht at Sotheby's earlier this week by Swansea University.</div><div><br>=
</div><div>I thought his work on Thomas (and Olson, when I read it, as I no=
w will) would be all I'd know about Ralph; but last year I was at a get=
-together at Leeds University of former editors of Poetry & Audience, t=
he UK's longest-running student poetry magazine, to mark its 60th anniv=
ersary. It transpired that P&A was founded by Ralph when he was postgra=
duate student at Leeds - tales survive in the folk memory of the School of =
English of him hand-printing the first issues and managing to sell them on =
the street to passers-by, as well as to fellow-students. It must have been =
among the very first stirrings of the poetic ferment at Leeds that later in=
cluded Geoffrey Hill, Tony Harrison, Jon Silkin and the rest. 1953 was also=
the year of Thomas's death, which may or may not be a coincidence: wha=
tever, I'd like to think of Ralph's founding of P&A as an examp=
le of 'the force' that 'blasts the roots of trees' simultan=
eously being the one that 'through the green fuse drives the flower'=
;. =C2=A0</div><div><div>=C2=A0<br></div></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_ex=
tra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 11 December 2014 at 22:14, Peter Ril=
ey <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" target=3D"_=
blank">[log in to unmask]</a>></span> wrote:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_=
quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1=
ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word">Ralph Maud has died at the age of 8=
6.=C2=A0 Dylan Thomas scholar, Charles Olson scholar, familiar and friend o=
f many British and American poets.=C2=A0 Last time I saw him he was moving =
round Britain with an enormous print-out in his luggage trying to create a =
<i>second </i>replica of Olson's library.=C2=A0<span class=3D"HOEnZb"><=
font color=3D"#888888"><div><br></div><div>PR</div>
</font></span></div></blockquote></div></div>
--089e01634d3461cb0c050a005dd5--
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2014 04:38:09 -0500
Reply-To: British & Irish poets <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: British & Irish poets <[log in to unmask]>
From: Sean Carey <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Ralph Maud
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="----=_Part_1402_2093233834.1418377089728"
Message-ID: <[log in to unmask]>
------=_Part_1402_2093233834.1418377089728
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
A fine mind and huge energy and commitment. We need men and women like Ralp=
h in the more electronic era. The Norman Mailer quip on Planet Internet "mo=
re information less wisdom" never applied to Ralph or his generation of sch=
olars.
Sleep softly Ralph.
Sent from AOL Mobile Mail
-----Original Message-----
From: GOODBY JOHN <[log in to unmask]>
To: BRITISH-IRISH-POETS <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Fri, Dec 12, 2014 08:06 AM
Subject: Re: Ralph Maud
<div id=3D"AOLMsgPart_2_f3f4cf6b-20d3-4c3b-8b20-8cdfe533ff59">
<div dir=3D"ltr">
Terribly sorry to hear about Ralph's death. I know nothing of his work on O=
lson, but his first career, as it were, was as a pioneering Dylan Thomas sc=
holar and that's how I knew and will remember him.=20
<div>
=20
=20
=20
Our only meeting was at a Thomas symposium I helped organise in Swansea in =
1998. Ralph turned up, and was enthusiastically supportive, made a virtuoso=
contribution in a paper on 'A saint about to fall', and gave me a copy of =
his seminal study, Entrances to Dylan Thomas' Poetry (1963). He didn't agre=
e with the application of modern critical theory to Thomas in a New Caseboo=
k I co-edited with Chris Wigginton in 2001, and a friendship didn't develop=
; but his work (along with that of Walford Davies) was the bedrock on which=
all subsequent scholarship on Thomas has been built, and I retained a huge=
respect for him - my study The Poetry of Dylan Thomas: Under the Spelling =
Wall (2013) and new Collected Poems (2014) are greatly in his debt. He edit=
ed the Broadcasts in 1991, and co-edited what was for twenty-six years the =
standard UK edition of the Collected Poems (with Walford Davies in 1988); h=
e also co-edited, again with Walford Davies, a definitive edition of Under =
Milk Wood. In 2003 he brought out poem-by-poem guide titled Where Have The =
Old Words Got Me? - a book that, despite its occasional lapses, is still th=
e sanest and most useful of its kind.
=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
His most remarkable contribution to Thomas scholarship, Entrances aside, wa=
s his edition of the four Dylan Thomas notebooks. These had been bought by =
the Special Poetry Collection at SUNY Buffalo in 1941, but previously only =
seen by scholars. Ralph's edition appeared in 1967 in the US and in 1968 in=
the UK (as Poet in the Making) and was a model of painstaking and enlighte=
ning scholarship; for the first time it revealed exactly how Thomas had gon=
e about forging the 'process' style of 18 Poems. (Ralph's acknowledgements =
include one, of particular interest to members of this list otherwise unint=
erested in Thomas, to 'Jeremy Prynne, whose eyes I have used on the manuscr=
ipt at various times.') He would have been enthralled by the newly-discover=
ed fifth notebook, a direct chronological continuation of the four he edite=
d, which was bought at Sotheby's earlier this week by Swansea University.
=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
I thought his work on Thomas (and Olson, when I read it, as I now will) wou=
ld be all I'd know about Ralph; but last year I was at a get-together at Le=
eds University of former editors of Poetry & Audience, the UK's longest-run=
ning student poetry magazine, to mark its 60th anniversary. It transpired t=
hat P&A was founded by Ralph when he was postgraduate student at Leeds - ta=
les survive in the folk memory of the School of English of him hand-printin=
g the first issues and managing to sell them on the street to passers-by, a=
s well as to fellow-students. It must have been among the very first stirri=
ngs of the poetic ferment at Leeds that later included Geoffrey Hill, Tony =
Harrison, Jon Silkin and the rest. 1953 was also the year of Thomas's death=
, which may or may not be a coincidence: whatever, I'd like to think of Ral=
ph's founding of P&A as an example of 'the force' that 'blasts the roots of=
trees' simultaneously being the one that 'through the green fuse drives th=
e flower'. =20
=20
=20
<div>
=20
=20
=20
</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"aolmail_gmail_extra">
=20
<div class=3D"aolmail_gmail_quote">
On 11 December 2014 at 22:14, Peter Riley=20
<span dir=3D"ltr"><<a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]
om">[log in to unmask]</a>></span> wrote:
<blockquote class=3D"aolmail_gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;bor=
der-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word">
Ralph Maud has died at the age of 86. Dylan Thomas scholar, Charles Olson =
scholar, familiar and friend of many British and American poets. Last time=
I saw him he was moving round Britain with an enormous print-out in his lu=
ggage trying to create a=20
<i>second </i>replica of Olson's library.=20
<span class=3D"aolmail_HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888">
=20
=20
=20
=20
PR
</font></span>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>=20
</div>
</div>
------=_Part_1402_2093233834.1418377089728
Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
A fine mind and huge energy and commitment. We need men and women like Ralp=
h in the more electronic era. The Norman Mailer quip on Planet Internet "mo=
re information less wisdom" never applied to Ralph or his generation of sch=
olars.<div><br></div><div>Sleep softly Ralph.<br><br>Sent from AOL Mobile M=
ail<br><br><br>-----Original Message-----<br>From: GOODBY JOHN <goby-goo=
[log in to unmask]><br>To: BRITISH-IRISH-POETS <BRITISH-IRISH-POETS@JIS=
CMAIL.AC.UK><br>Sent: Fri, Dec 12, 2014 08:06 AM<br>Subject: Re: Ralph M=
aud<br><br><br>
<div id=3D"AOLMsgPart_2_f3f4cf6b-20d3-4c3b-8b20-8cdfe533ff59">
<div dir=3D"ltr">
Terribly sorry to hear about Ralph's death. I know nothing of his work on O=
lson, but his first career, as it were, was as a pioneering Dylan Thomas sc=
holar and that's how I knew and will remember him.
<div>
<br>
</div>
<div>
Our only meeting was at a Thomas symposium I helped organise in Swansea in =
1998. Ralph turned up, and was enthusiastically supportive, made a virtuoso=
contribution in a paper on 'A saint about to fall', and gave me a copy of =
his seminal study, Entrances to Dylan Thomas' Poetry (1963). He didn't agre=
e with the application of modern critical theory to Thomas in a New Caseboo=
k I co-edited with Chris Wigginton in 2001, and a friendship didn't develop=
; but his work (along with that of Walford Davies) was the bedrock on which=
all subsequent scholarship on Thomas has been built, and I retained a huge=
respect for him - my study The Poetry of Dylan Thomas: Under the Spelling =
Wall (2013) and new Collected Poems (2014) are greatly in his debt. He edit=
ed the Broadcasts in 1991, and co-edited what was for twenty-six years the =
standard UK edition of the Collected Poems (with Walford Davies in 1988); h=
e also co-edited, again with Walford Davies, a definitive edition of Under =
Milk Wood. In 2003 he brought out poem-by-poem guide titled Where Have The =
Old Words Got Me? - a book that, despite its occasional lapses, is still th=
e sanest and most useful of its kind.
</div>
<div>
<br>
</div>
<div>
His most remarkable contribution to Thomas scholarship, Entrances aside, wa=
s his edition of the four Dylan Thomas notebooks. These had been bought by =
the Special Poetry Collection at SUNY Buffalo in 1941, but previously only =
seen by scholars. Ralph's edition appeared in 1967 in the US and in 1968 in=
the UK (as Poet in the Making) and was a model of painstaking and enlighte=
ning scholarship; for the first time it revealed exactly how Thomas had gon=
e about forging the 'process' style of 18 Poems. (Ralph's acknowledgements =
include one, of particular interest to members of this list otherwise unint=
erested in Thomas, to 'Jeremy Prynne, whose eyes I have used on the manuscr=
ipt at various times.') He would have been enthralled by the newly-discover=
ed fifth notebook, a direct chronological continuation of the four he edite=
d, which was bought at Sotheby's earlier this week by Swansea University.
</div>
<div>
<br>
</div>
<div>
I thought his work on Thomas (and Olson, when I read it, as I now will) wou=
ld be all I'd know about Ralph; but last year I was at a get-together at Le=
eds University of former editors of Poetry & Audience, the UK's longest=
-running student poetry magazine, to mark its 60th anniversary. It transpir=
ed that P&A was founded by Ralph when he was postgraduate student at Le=
eds - tales survive in the folk memory of the School of English of him hand=
-printing the first issues and managing to sell them on the street to passe=
rs-by, as well as to fellow-students. It must have been among the very firs=
t stirrings of the poetic ferment at Leeds that later included Geoffrey Hil=
l, Tony Harrison, Jon Silkin and the rest. 1953 was also the year of Thomas=
's death, which may or may not be a coincidence: whatever, I'd like to thin=
k of Ralph's founding of P&A as an example of 'the force' that 'blasts =
the roots of trees' simultaneously being the one that 'through the green fu=
se drives the flower'.
</div>
<div>
<div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"aolmail_gmail_extra">
<br>
<div class=3D"aolmail_gmail_quote">
On 11 December 2014 at 22:14, Peter Riley=20
<span dir=3D"ltr"><<a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:priley@waitros=
e.com">[log in to unmask]</a>></span> wrote:
<blockquote class=3D"aolmail_gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;bor=
der-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word">
Ralph Maud has died at the age of 86. Dylan Thomas scholar, Charles O=
lson scholar, familiar and friend of many British and American poets. =
Last time I saw him he was moving round Britain with an enormous print-out=
in his luggage trying to create a=20
<i>second </i>replica of Olson's library.
<span class=3D"aolmail_HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888">
<div>
<br>
</div>
<div>
PR
</div> </font></span>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>=20
</div>
</div>
------=_Part_1402_2093233834.1418377089728--
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2014 14:43:49 +0000
Reply-To: British & Irish poets <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: British & Irish poets <[log in to unmask]>
From: Tim Allen <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Re Quality Work
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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OO I'd love that book. I want it.=20
Cheers
Tim=20
On 10 Dec 2014, at 17:27, Mark Weiss wrote:
> Selected Talk Poems of David Antin , ed. Stephen Fredman (University =
of New Mexico Press), just came out. It's almost 400 pages. Not =
cheap--$40 soft cover, and probably a king's ransom in the UK.
--Apple-Mail-1--145917808
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<html><head></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">OO =
I'd love that book. I want =
it. <div><br></div><div>Cheers</div><div><br></div><div>Tim </di=
v><div><br><div><div>On 10 Dec 2014, at 17:27, Mark Weiss =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: =
separate; font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: =
normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: =
auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><span =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: Geneva, Arial, =
Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; ">Selected Talk Poems of David =
Antin , ed. Stephen Fredman (University of New Mexico Press), just came =
out. It's almost 400 pages. Not cheap--$40 soft cover, and probably a =
king's ransom in the =
UK.</span></span></blockquote></div><br></div></body></html>=
--Apple-Mail-1--145917808--
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2014 14:51:33 +0000
Reply-To: British & Irish poets <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: British & Irish poets <[log in to unmask]>
From: Tim Allen <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: A Good Point
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1085)
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?????????????? What?
Are calling really calling Arrondissements and the absolutely brilliant =
Whisper Louise a decline Sean?=20
Cheers
Tim - Perplexed in Preston.
=20
On 10 Dec 2014, at 23:48, Sean Carey wrote:
> In Doug Oliver's case I feel his work declined in his last marriage as =
Notley was the influence on his last works.
--Apple-Mail-2--145454361
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<html><head></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; =
">?????????????? What?<div><br></div><div>Are calling really calling =
Arrondissements and the absolutely brilliant Whisper Louise a decline =
Sean? </div><div><br></div><div>Cheers</div><div>Tim - Perplexed in =
Preston.</div><div> <br><div><div>On 10 Dec 2014, at 23:48, =
Sean Carey wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote=
type=3D"cite"><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: =
separate; font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: =
normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: =
auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; ">In Doug =
Oliver's case I feel his work declined in his last marriage as Notley =
was the influence on his last =
works.</span></blockquote></div><br></div></body></html>=
--Apple-Mail-2--145454361--
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2014 16:56:32 +0000
Reply-To: British & Irish poets <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: British & Irish poets <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Hall, John" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Ralph Maud
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
Mime-version: 1.0
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> This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.
--B_3501248196_83635
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charset="US-ASCII"
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I only met him on one occasion, when he was visiting Cambridge in the mid
60s. He, Andrew Crozier and I went to see The 300 Spartans in a cinema on
the market square. As I recall there were so many arrows in the air at one
time that they 'blotted out the sun', a phrase used by one of the
characters. We were humbled by the eloquence and shuffled off for a drink.
John
From: Peter Riley <[log in to unmask]>
Reply-To: British & Irish Poets <[log in to unmask]>
Date: Thursday, 11 December 2014 22:14
To: British & Irish Poets <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Ralph Maud
Ralph Maud has died at the age of 86. Dylan Thomas scholar, Charles Olson
scholar, familiar and friend of many British and American poets. Last time
I saw him he was moving round Britain with an enormous print-out in his
luggage trying to create a second replica of Olson's library.
PR
--B_3501248196_83635
Content-type: text/html;
charset="US-ASCII"
Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable
<html><head></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: s=
pace; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size:=
14px; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><div>I only met him on one occasio=
n, when he was visiting Cambridge in the mid 60s. He, Andrew Crozier and I w=
ent to see The 300 Spartans in a cinema on the market square. As I recall th=
ere were so many arrows in the air at one time that they 'blotted out the su=
n', a phrase used by one of the characters. We were humbled by the eloquence=
and shuffled off for a drink.</div><div><br></div><div>John</div><div><br><=
/div><span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION"><div style=3D"font-family:Calibri; font-s=
ize:11pt; text-align:left; color:black; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-L=
EFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in=
; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt=
"><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">From: </span> Peter Riley <<a href=3D"mail=
to:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>><br><span style=3D"font-wei=
ght:bold">Reply-To: </span> British & Irish Poets <<a href=3D"mailto:br=
[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>>=
<br><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Date: </span> Thursday, 11 December 2014 =
22:14<br><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">To: </span> British & Irish Poet=
s <<a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">british-irish-poet=
[log in to unmask]</a>><br><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Subject: </span> =
Ralph Maud<br></div><div><br></div><div><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -=
webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">Ralph Maud=
has died at the age of 86. Dylan Thomas scholar, Charles Olson schola=
r, familiar and friend of many British and American poets. Last time I=
saw him he was moving round Britain with an enormous print-out in his lugga=
ge trying to create a <i>second </i>replica of Olson's library. <div><b=
r></div><div>PR</div></div></div></span></body></html>
--B_3501248196_83635--
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2014 17:01:23 +0000
Reply-To: British & Irish poets <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: British & Irish poets <[log in to unmask]>
From: Walsh Mills <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Alec Finlay review
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Hi all
Apologies if you get this more than once. My review of Alec Finlay's
bee-inspired Global Oracle is online now:
https://ellipticalmovements.wordpress.com/2014/12/12/global-oracle-by-alec-finlay-a-review/
Best
Billy
--001a11c29762b45dba050a07d73b
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div><div>Hi all<br><br></div>Apologies if you get th=
is more than once. My review of Alec Finlay's bee-inspired Global Oracl=
e is online now:<br><br><a href=3D"https://ellipticalmovements.wordpress.co=
m/2014/12/12/global-oracle-by-alec-finlay-a-review/">https://ellipticalmove=
ments.wordpress.com/2014/12/12/global-oracle-by-alec-finlay-a-review/</a><b=
r><br></div>Best<br><br></div>Billy<br></div>
--001a11c29762b45dba050a07d73b--
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2014 17:35:24 -0500
Reply-To: British & Irish poets <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: British & Irish poets <[log in to unmask]>
From: Sean Carey <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Douglas Oliver
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
----------MB_8D1E4730E069071_1820_D177C_webmail-va136.sysops.aol.com
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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Overall=20I=20rate=20his=20English=20work=20very=20highly=20where=20he=20hit=20a=
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Paris=20more=20or=20less=20ended=20that=20phase=20leaving=20a=20sense=20of=20unf=
inished=20business.=20His=20depth=20of=20insight=20into=20Dorset=20was=20amazing=
=20then=20"The=20Infant=20and=20The=20Pearl"=20evoked=20a=20decade=20in=20Englis=
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Harmless=20Building"=20included=20in=20his=20fine=20Paladin=20edition.=20It=20is=
=20the=20readership=20who=20let=20these=20Paladin=20publications=20down=20by=20n=
ot=20buying=20them.=20That=20area=20of=20England=20covered=20in=20his=20novel=20=
I=20find=20very=20interesting=20=20though=20my=20trips=20there=20have=20been=20f=
ew.=20These=20book=20were=20all=20classics=20but=20failed=20to=20ignite=20the=20=
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childhood=20but=20the=20roots=20are=20there.=20=0A=0AMy=20case=20rests=20on=20Do=
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expressing=20regret=20Douglas=20did=20not=20continue=20to=20stick=20with=20his=20=
original=20project.=20My=20view=20to=20close=20this=20section=20is=20that=20I=20=
rate=20him=20very=20highly=20indeed=20as=20a=20great=20English=20poet.=20Often=20=
us=20Celts=20blow=20our=20trumpets=20louder=20but=20we=20also=20must=20realise=20=
these=20islands=20are=20linked=20by=20geology=20and=20mutual=20histories.=20I=20=
am=20going=20to=20move=20on=20to=20my=20view=20on=20the=20later=20works=20Tim=20=
in=20a=20fresh=20message.=0A=0ACheers=0A=0AS=0A=0A=0A=0A-----Original=20Message-=
----=0AFrom:[log in to unmask]:=20BRITISH-IRI=
SH-POETS=20<[log in to unmask]>=0ASent:=20Fri,=2012=20Dec=202014=
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rriage=20as=20Notley=20was=20the=20influence=20on=20his=20last=20works.=0A=0A
----------MB_8D1E4730E069071_1820_D177C_webmail-va136.sysops.aol.com
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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Overall=20I=20rate=20his=20English=20work=20very=20highly=20where=20he=20hit=20a=
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nglish=20politics=20but=20Oliver=20mastered=20it.=20<br><br>Any=20long=20poem=20=
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=20the=20readership=20who=20let=20these=20Paladin=20publications=20down=20by=20n=
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public=20interest.=20<br><br><br>Oliver=20covers=20in=20"The=20Harmless=20Buildi=
ng"=20the=20absurb=20worlds=20of=20childhood=20into=20adulthood=20with=20rare=20=
honesty.=20Rather=20than=20the=20usual=20perceptions=20of=20childhood=20being=20=
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in=20childhood=20but=20the=20roots=20are=20there.=20<br><br>My=20case=20rests=20=
on=20Douglas=20Oliver=20will=20explore=20his=20other=20works=20prior=20to=20Pari=
s=20and=20America=20in=20due=20course.=20In=20no=20way=20am=20I=20knocking=20Ali=
ce=20Notley=20or=20indeed=20his=20journalistic=20work=20with=20AFP.=20Merely=20I=
=20am=20expressing=20regret=20Douglas=20did=20not=20continue=20to=20stick=20with=
=20his=20original=20project.=20My=20view=20to=20close=20this=20section=20is=20th=
at=20I=20rate=20him=20very=20highly=20indeed=20as=20a=20great=20English=20poet.=20=
Often=20us=20Celts=20blow=20our=20trumpets=20louder=20but=20we=20also=20must=20r=
ealise=20these=20islands=20are=20linked=20by=20geology=20and=20mutual=20historie=
s.=20I=20am=20going=20to=20move=20on=20to=20my=20view=20on=20the=20later=20works=
=20Tim=20in=20a=20fresh=20message.<br><br>Cheers<br><br>S<br><br><br><br>-----Or=
iginal=20Message-----<br>From:[log in to unmask]<b=
r>To:=20BRITISH-IRISH-POETS=20<[log in to unmask]><br>Sent:=20Fr=
i,=2012=20Dec=202014=209:51<br>Subject:=20Re:=20A=20Good=20Point<br><br>=0D=0A<d=
iv=20id=3D"AOLMsgPart_1_631af241-cf1e-4021-a7d7-c6e338628907">=0D=0A<div=20class=
=3D"aolReplacedBody"=20=20style=3D"word-wrap:=20break-word;=20-webkit-nbsp-mode:=
=20space;=20-webkit-line-break:=20after-white-space;=20">??????????????=20What?<=
div><br></div><div>Are=20calling=20really=20calling=20Arrondissements=20and=20th=
e=20absolutely=20brilliant=20Whisper=20Louise=20a=20decline=20Sean? </div><=
div><br></div><div>Cheers</div><div>Tim=20-=20Perplexed=20in=20Preston.</div><di=
v> <br><div><div>On=2010=20Dec=202014,=20at=2023:48,=20Sean=20Carey=20=
wrote:</div><br=20class=3D"aolmail_Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote=20type=
=3D"cite"><span=20class=3D"aolmail_Apple-style-span"=20style=3D"border-collapse:=
=20separate;=20font-family:=20Helvetica;=20font-style:=20normal;=20font-variant:=
=20normal;=20font-weight:=20normal;=20letter-spacing:=20normal;=20line-height:=20=
normal;=20orphans:=202;=20text-align:=20-webkit-auto;=20text-indent:=200px;=20te=
xt-transform:=20none;=20white-space:=20normal;=20widows:=202;=20word-spacing:=20=
0px;=20-webkit-border-horizontal-spacing:=200px;=20-webkit-border-vertical-spaci=
ng:=200px;=20-webkit-text-decorations-in-effect:=20none;=20-webkit-text-size-adj=
ust:=20auto;=20-webkit-text-stroke-width:=200px;=20font-size:=20medium;=20">In=20=
Doug=20Oliver's=20case=20I=20feel=20his=20work=20declined=20in=20his=20last=20=
marriage=20as=20Notley=20was=20 the=20influence=20on=20his=20last=20works.<=
/span></blockquote></div><br></div></div>=0D=0A</div>=0D=0A
----------MB_8D1E4730E069071_1820_D177C_webmail-va136.sysops.aol.com--
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2014 23:53:05 +0100
Reply-To: British & Irish poets <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: British & Irish poets <[log in to unmask]>
From: Pierre Joris <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Douglas Oliver
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
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I agree with Tim: for me Arrondissements and the Whisper Louise are =
certainly splendid works & among the best he did. Are you getting a bit =
nationalistic there, Sean? Looks like you like the work he did before he =
left the UK and nothing after?
Pierre
> On Dec 12, 2014, at 11:35 PM, Sean Carey <[log in to unmask]> =
wrote:
>=20
> Overall I rate his English work very highly where he hit a rich vein =
that I feel could have continued. The move to Paris more or less ended =
that phase leaving a sense of unfinished business. His depth of insight =
into Dorset was amazing then "The Infant and The Pearl" evoked a decade =
in English history. That era is now remote but a lot of it still is apt =
with some real poetic intuition shown. Others have tried Place poems =
while many attempt political poems involving English politics but Oliver =
mastered it.=20
>=20
> Any long poem involves huge risks to sustain the theme and subject =
matter. "The Infant and The Pearl" has had its critics as well as its =
admirers. The other English works of Oliver include "The Harmless =
Building" included in his fine Paladin edition. It is the readership who =
let these Paladin publications down by not buying them. That area of =
England covered in his novel I find very interesting though my trips =
there have been few. These book were all classics but failed to ignite =
the public interest.=20
>=20
>=20
> Oliver covers in "The Harmless Building" the absurb worlds of =
childhood into adulthood with rare honesty. Rather than the usual =
perceptions of childhood being close to bliss he sees it as a nightmare. =
In my own humble view in childhood we discover many horrors that most =
never recover from in adulthood. Oliver does not base it solely in =
childhood but the roots are there.=20
>=20
> My case rests on Douglas Oliver will explore his other works prior to =
Paris and America in due course. In no way am I knocking Alice Notley or =
indeed his journalistic work with AFP. Merely I am expressing regret =
Douglas did not continue to stick with his original project. My view to =
close this section is that I rate him very highly indeed as a great =
English poet. Often us Celts blow our trumpets louder but we also must =
realise these islands are linked by geology and mutual histories. I am =
going to move on to my view on the later works Tim in a fresh message.
>=20
> Cheers
>=20
> S
>=20
>=20
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [log in to unmask]
> To: BRITISH-IRISH-POETS=20
> Sent: Fri, 12 Dec 2014 9:51
> Subject: Re: A Good Point
>=20
> ?????????????? What?
>=20
> Are calling really calling Arrondissements and the absolutely =
brilliant Whisper Louise a decline Sean?=20
>=20
> Cheers
> Tim - Perplexed in Preston.
> =20
> On 10 Dec 2014, at 23:48, Sean Carey wrote:
>=20
>> In Doug Oliver's case I feel his work declined in his last marriage =
as Notley was the influence on his last works.
>=20
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
"It may well be the case that one has
to wait a long time to find out whether the
title of avant-garde is deserved." =20
=E2=80=94 Jean-Fran=C3=A7ois Lyotard
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Pierre Joris =20
cell phone: 518 225 7123 =
=20
email: [log in to unmask]
http://pierrejoris.com
Nomadics blog: http://pierrejoris.com/blog/
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
_____________________________________________________
Coming in September, October & December:
=20
=20
=
=09
Barzakh (Poems 2000-2012) A Voice Full of Cities: =
Paul Celan: Breathturn into Timestead =09=
by Pierre Joris The Collected =
Essays of Robert Kelly The Collected Later Poetry
Edited =
by Pierre Joris & Peter Cockelbergh Translated & with commentary by =
Pierre Joris
Black Widow Press Contra Mundum =
Press Farrar Straus & Giroux
http://www.blackwidowpress.com/ <http://www.blackwidowpress.com/> / =
http://contramundum.net/ <http://contramundum.net/> =
http://us.macmillan.com/books/9780374125981 =
<http://us.macmillan.com/books/9780374125981>
_____________________________________________________
Pierre Joris=20
cell: 518 225 7123=20
email: [log in to unmask]
http://pierrejoris.com=20
Nomadics blog: http://pierrejoris.com/blog/=20
______________________________________________________
I don=E2=80=99t know if we can get rid of our =E2=80=9Csoul waste=E2=80=9D=
more easily=20
than of our =E2=80=9Catomic waste=E2=80=9D =E2=80=94 Paul Celan
______________________________________________________
--Apple-Mail=_400AC400-0A27-4E29-AEFF-953CECF26D86
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charset=utf-8
<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">I agree with Tim: for me Arrondissements and the Whisper =
Louise are certainly splendid works & among the best he did. Are you =
getting a bit nationalistic there, Sean? Looks like you like the work he =
did before he left the UK and nothing after?<div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Pierre<br class=3D""><div><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Dec 12, 2014, at 11:35 PM, =
Sean Carey <<a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" =
class=3D"">[log in to unmask]</a>> wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D"">Overall I rate his =
English work very highly where he hit a rich vein that I feel could have =
continued. The move to Paris more or less ended that phase leaving a =
sense of unfinished business. His depth of insight into Dorset was =
amazing then "The Infant and The Pearl" evoked a decade in English =
history. That era is now remote but a lot of it still is apt with some =
real poetic intuition shown. Others have tried Place poems while many =
attempt political poems involving English politics but Oliver mastered =
it. <br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Any long poem involves huge risks to =
sustain the theme and subject matter. "The Infant and The Pearl" has had =
its critics as well as its admirers. The other English works of Oliver =
include "The Harmless Building" included in his fine Paladin edition. It =
is the readership who let these Paladin publications down by not buying =
them. That area of England covered in his novel I find very interesting =
though my trips there have been few. These book were all classics but =
failed to ignite the public interest. <br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Oliver covers in "The Harmless Building" the absurb worlds of =
childhood into adulthood with rare honesty. Rather than the usual =
perceptions of childhood being close to bliss he sees it as a nightmare. =
In my own humble view in childhood we discover many horrors that most =
never recover from in adulthood. Oliver does not base it solely in =
childhood but the roots are there. <br class=3D""><br class=3D"">My case =
rests on Douglas Oliver will explore his other works prior to Paris and =
America in due course. In no way am I knocking Alice Notley or indeed =
his journalistic work with AFP. Merely I am expressing regret Douglas =
did not continue to stick with his original project. My view to close =
this section is that I rate him very highly indeed as a great English =
poet. Often us Celts blow our trumpets louder but we also must realise =
these islands are linked by geology and mutual histories. I am going to =
move on to my view on the later works Tim in a fresh message.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">Cheers<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">S<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">-----Original =
Message-----<br class=3D"">From: <a =
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" =
class=3D"">[log in to unmask]</a><br =
class=3D"">To: BRITISH-IRISH-POETS <[log in to unmask] =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">Sent: Fri, 12 Dec 2014 9:51<br =
class=3D"">Subject: Re: A Good Point<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">
<div id=3D"AOLMsgPart_1_631af241-cf1e-4021-a7d7-c6e338628907" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"aolReplacedBody" style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; =
">?????????????? What?<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Are calling really calling Arrondissements and the absolutely =
brilliant Whisper Louise a decline Sean? </div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Cheers</div><div class=3D"">Tim - =
Perplexed in Preston.</div><div class=3D""> <br class=3D""><div=
class=3D""><div class=3D"">On 10 Dec 2014, at 23:48, Sean Carey =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"aolmail_Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><span class=3D"aolmail_Apple-style-span" =
style=3D"border-collapse: separate; font-family: Helvetica; font-style: =
normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; =
word-spacing: 0px; border-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: =
0px; font-size: inherit;">In Doug Oliver's case I feel his work declined =
in his last marriage as Notley was the influence on his last =
works.</span></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></div></div>
</div>
<[log in to unmask]></div></blockquote></div><br =
class=3D""><div apple-content-edited=3D"true" class=3D"">
<span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: separate; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman'; border-spacing: 0px;"><div =
style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: separate; color: =
rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: =
normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; border-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: =
0px;"><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: separate; color: =
rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: =
normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; border-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: =
0px;"><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: separate; color: =
rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: =
normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; border-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: =
0px;"><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: separate; color: =
rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; =
border-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" =
class=3D"">=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D</div><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, =
0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""> =
"It may well be the case that one has</div><div =
style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" =
class=3D"">to wait a long time to find out whether the</div><div =
style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" =
class=3D"">title of avant-garde is deserved." =
</div><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" =
class=3D""> =
=
=E2=80=94 Jean-Fran=C3=A7ois Lyotard</div><div style=3D"color: =
rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" =
class=3D"">=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D</div><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, =
0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0px;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0px;" class=3D""><font face=3D"Helvetica"=
size=3D"4" style=3D"font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; =
font-weight: normal; font-size: 14px; line-height: normal; font-family: =
Helvetica;" class=3D"">Pierre Joris =
</font></div><div style=3D"margin: 0px;" class=3D""><font =
face=3D"Helvetica" size=3D"4" style=3D"font-style: normal; font-variant: =
normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 14px; line-height: normal; =
font-family: Helvetica;" class=3D"">cell phone: 518 225 7123<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-tab"> =
=
=
</span></font></div><div style=3D"margin: 0px;" =
class=3D""><font face=3D"Helvetica" size=3D"4" style=3D"font-style: =
normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 14px; =
line-height: normal; font-family: Helvetica;" class=3D"">email: <a =
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" =
class=3D"">[log in to unmask]</a></font></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0px;" class=3D""><font face=3D"Helvetica" size=3D"4" style=3D"font-style: =
normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 14px; =
line-height: normal; font-family: Helvetica;" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"http://pierrejoris.com" =
class=3D"">http://pierrejoris.com</a></font></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0px;" class=3D"">Nomadics blog: <a =
href=3D"http://pierrejoris.com/blog/" =
class=3D"">http://pierrejoris.com/blog/</a></div></div></div><div =
style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" =
class=3D"">=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><span><img height=3D"71" width=3D"376"=
apple-inline=3D"yes" id=3D"7CC34134-4C8E-455F-BCFF-4161DD3CFFD7" =
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</div>
</span></div></span></div></span></div></span></div></span></div><br =
class=3D""><div apple-content-edited=3D"true" class=3D"">
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-variant: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
style=3D"border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-variant: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; =
word-spacing: 0px; border-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: =
0px;"><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 24px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-family: Times; =
word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 15px;" =
class=3D"">_____________________________________________________</span></d=
iv><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 24px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-family: Times; =
word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 15px;" =
class=3D"">Coming in September, October & =
December:</span></div><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Garamond; font-size: 24px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; =
orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: =
0px;"><span><span><span><span><span><span><span><span><span><span><span><s=
pan style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-variant: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: =
0px;"><span><span><span><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
font-variant: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; =
orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><span><span style=3D"font-family: =
Times;"><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Times; =
font-size: 24px; font-variant: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><span><span><span style=3D"color: =
rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Times; font-size: 24px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><span style=3D"font-style: normal; =
font-weight: normal;"><span><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><span><img height=3D"163" =
width=3D"108" apple-inline=3D"yes" =
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!important;" class=3D""> =
</span><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, =
0); font-family: Times; font-size: 24px; font-style: normal; =
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Times; font-size: 24px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; =
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orphans: 2; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; =
white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
font-family: Garamond; font-variant: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: =
separate; border-spacing: 0px;"><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
font-variant: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; =
orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: =
0px;"><span><span><span><span><span><span><span><span><span><span><span><s=
pan style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-variant: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><span><div =
style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-variant: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
style=3D"border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-variant: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; =
word-spacing: 0px; border-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: =
0px;"><div style=3D"font-style: normal; font-family: Times; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 15px;" =
class=3D""><b class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"font-weight: normal; white-space: pre;"> =
=
</span><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"></b></span><b style=3D"font-size: =
15px; text-align: -webkit-auto;" class=3D"">Barzakh<span =
style=3D"font-weight: normal;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span>(Poems 2000-2012) =
<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>A Voice Full of =
Cities:<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"font-weight: normal; =
white-space: pre;"> </span>Paul =
Celan: Breathturn into Timestead<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"font-weight: normal; white-space: pre;"> =
</span></b></div><div style=3D"font-family: Times; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 15px;" =
class=3D"">by Pierre Joris =
=
<i style=3D"font-style: normal;" =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">The Collected Essays of Robert =
Kelly</b></i><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"font-weight: =
normal; font-style: italic; white-space: pre;"> </span><b =
class=3D"">The Collected Later Poetry</b></span></div><div =
style=3D"font-style: normal; font-weight: normal; font-family: Times; =
word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 15px;" =
class=3D""> =
=
=
Edited by Pierre Joris & Peter =
Cockelbergh </span><span style=3D"text-align: -webkit-auto; =
font-size: 15px;" class=3D"">Translated & with commentary by Pierre =
Joris</span></div><div style=3D"font-style: normal; font-weight: normal; =
font-family: Times; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 15px;" class=3D""><br class=3D""></span></div><div =
style=3D"font-style: normal; font-weight: normal; font-family: Times; =
word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 15px;" =
class=3D"">Black Widow Press<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space: pre;"> </span> =
Contra Mundum Press <span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space: pre;"> =
</span> Farrar Straus & Giroux</span></div><div =
style=3D"font-style: normal; font-weight: normal; font-family: Times; =
word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 15px;" =
class=3D""> </span><a href=3D"http://www.blackwidowpress.com/" =
style=3D"text-align: -webkit-auto; font-family: Garamond;" =
class=3D"">http://www.blackwidowpress.com/</a> / <a =
href=3D"http://contramundum.net/" style=3D"text-align: -webkit-auto; =
font-family: Garamond;" class=3D"">http://contramundum.net/</a> =
=
<a href=3D"http://us.macmillan.com/books/9780374125981" =
style=3D"text-align: -webkit-auto; font-family: Garamond;" =
class=3D"">http://us.macmillan.com/books/9780374125981</a></div><div =
style=3D"font-style: normal; font-weight: normal; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Times; font-size: 15px; =
font-weight: normal; font-style: normal;" =
class=3D"">_____________________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">Pierre Joris <br class=3D"">cell: 518 225 7123 <br =
class=3D"">email: <a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" =
class=3D"">[log in to unmask]</a> <br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"http://pierrejoris.com" =
class=3D"">http://pierrejoris.com</a> <br class=3D"">Nomadics =
blog: <a href=3D"http://pierrejoris.com/blog/" =
class=3D"">http://pierrejoris.com/blog/</a> </span></div><div =
style=3D"font-style: normal; font-weight: normal; font-family: Times; =
word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 15px;" =
class=3D"">______________________________________________________</span></=
div></span></div><span style=3D"font-style: normal; font-weight: normal; =
font-family: Garamond; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-variant: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: =
-webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D""><font size=3D"1" =
class=3D"">I don=E2=80=99t know if we can get rid of our =E2=80=9Csoul =
waste=E2=80=9D more =
easily </font></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span=
></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></div><div =
style=3D"font-style: normal; font-weight: normal; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
font-family: Garamond; font-variant: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: =
separate; border-spacing: 0px;"><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
font-variant: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; =
orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: =
0px;"><span><span><span><span><span><span><span><span><span><span><span><s=
pan style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-variant: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><span><span =
style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-variant: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: =
inline !important;" class=3D""><font size=3D"1" class=3D"">than of our =
=E2=80=9Catomic waste=E2=80=9D =E2=80=94 Paul =
Celan</font></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span=
></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></div><div =
style=3D"font-style: normal; font-weight: normal; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
font-variant: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; =
orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-family: Times; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
style=3D"border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Times; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; =
white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; border-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: =
0px;"><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Times; =
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: =
-webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: =
0px;"><span><span><span><span><span><span><span><span><span><span><span><s=
pan style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Times; font-style: =
normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><span><span =
style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Times; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline =
!important;" class=3D""><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: =
separate; border-spacing: 0px;"><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
font-family: Times; font-size: 24px; font-style: normal; font-variant: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: =
normal; orphans: 2; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 15px;" =
class=3D"">______________________________________________________</span></=
div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline" style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, =
0); font-family: Times; font-size: 24px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
font-family: Times; font-size: 24px; font-style: normal; font-variant: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: =
normal; orphans: 2; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: =
0px;"><span><span><span><span><span><span><span><img height=3D"71" =
width=3D"376" apple-inline=3D"yes" =
id=3D"4F733DAF-8AFF-427A-BA5D-EE3834EBCBAA" apple-width=3D"yes" =
apple-height=3D"yes" src=3D"cid:image001.jpg@01CF2F13.99284130" =
class=3D""></span>
</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></div>
=
</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></sp=
an></span></span></span></span></span></div></span></span></span></span></=
span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span=
></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></s=
pan></span></span></div></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><=
/span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></spa=
n></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></=
span></div></div><br class=3D""></div></body></html>=
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--Apple-Mail=_07B9D306-2336-4E70-B23E-680A1646ECCE--
--Apple-Mail=_400AC400-0A27-4E29-AEFF-953CECF26D86--
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2014 18:34:56 -0500
Reply-To: British & Irish poets <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: British & Irish poets <[log in to unmask]>
From: Sean Carey <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Douglas Oliver Continued
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
Message-ID: <[log in to unmask]>
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often=20feel=20a=20=0D=0Ashadow=20if=20either=20is=20more=20acclaimed.=20It=20is=
=20a=20common=20problem=20all=20through=20=0D=0Aliterary=20history=20as=20are=20=
relationships=20within=20poetic=20groups=20or=20circles=20=0D=0Aliterary.=20Ofte=
n=20political=20parties=20are=20lonely=20hearts=20clubs=20and=20=0D=0Ajournalist=
s=20never=20stop=20being=20journalists.=20Oliver=20was=20a=20working=20=0D=0Ajou=
rnalist=20for=20a=20lot=20of=20his=20life.=0D=0A=0D=0AThe=20later=20works=20I=20=
feel=20while=20impressive=20never=20reached=20the=20heights=20of=20=0D=0Ahis=20o=
utput=20in=20the=20Paladin=20and=20in=20"Kind".=20I=20see=20the=20shadow=20of=20=
Notley=20in=20=0D=0Athe=20two=20final=20books.=20A=20harsh=20judgement=20but=20o=
ne=20based=20on=20Oliver's=20own=20=0D=0Astrengths.=0D=0A=0D=0AOn=20a=20final=20=
note=20I=20regret=20Douglas=20did=20not=20value=20the=20Paul=20Buck=20driven=20=0D=
=0Awriting=20that=20was=20published=20in=20Curtains.=20Given=20that=20his=20own=20=
work=20covered=20=0D=0Amany=20sexual=20areas=20I=20never=20saw=20the=20logic=20o=
f=20not=20recognising=20the=20advances=20=0D=0Amade=20by=20Paul=20Buck.=0D=0A
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2014 18:39:28 -0500
Reply-To: British & Irish poets <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: British & Irish poets <[log in to unmask]>
From: Sean Carey <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Douglas Oliver
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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True=20to=20a=20degree=20but=20I=20feel=20he=20lost=20something=20when=20he=20le=
ft=20England.=20What=20he=20left=20us=20is=20wonderful=20work=20on=20English=20s=
ubject=20matter=20Pierre.=0A=0AThen=20on=20the=20view=20he=20held=20on=20Paul=20=
Buck=20and=20others=20he=20missed=20their=20love=20of=20qualiy=20French=20advanc=
es?=0A=0A=0A=0A-----Original=20Message-----=0AFrom:[log in to unmask]:=20=
BRITISH-IRISH-POETS=20<[log in to unmask]>=0ASent:=20Fri,=2012=20=
Dec=202014=2017:56=0ASubject:=20Re:=20Douglas=20Oliver=0A=0A=0A=0AI=20agree=20wi=
th=20Tim:=20for=20me=20Arrondissements=20and=20the=20Whisper=20Louise=20are=20ce=
rtainly=20splendid=20works=20&=20among=20the=20best=20he=20did.=20Are=20you=20ge=
tting=20a=20bit=20nationalistic=20there,=20Sean?=20Looks=20like=20you=20like=20t=
he=20work=20he=20did=20before=20he=20left=20the=20UK=20and=20nothing=20after?=0A=
Pierre=0AOn=20Dec=2012,=202014,=20at=2011:35=20PM,=20Sean=20Carey=20<sean.carey1=
@AOL.CO.UK>=20wrote:=0AOverall=20I=20rate=20his=20English=20work=20very=20highly=
=20where=20he=20hit=20a=20rich=20vein=20that=20I=20feel=20could=20have=20continu=
ed.=20The=20move=20to=20Paris=20more=20or=20less=20ended=20that=20phase=20leavin=
g=20a=20sense=20of=20unfinished=20business.=20His=20depth=20of=20insight=20into=20=
Dorset=20was=20amazing=20then=20"The=20Infant=20and=20The=20Pearl"=20evoked=20a=20=
decade=20in=20English=20history.=20That=20era=20is=20now=20remote=20but=20a=20lo=
t=20of=20it=20still=20is=20apt=20with=20some=20real=20poetic=20intuition=20shown=
.=20Others=20have=20tried=20Place=20poems=20while=20many=20attempt=20political=20=
poems=20involving=20English=20politics=20but=20Oliver=20mastered=20it.=20=0A=0AA=
ny=20long=20poem=20involves=20huge=20risks=20to=20sustain=20the=20theme=20and=20=
subject=20matter.=20"The=20Infant=20and=20The=20Pearl"=20has=20had=20its=20criti=
cs=20as=20well=20as=20its=20admirers.=20The=20other=20English=20works=20of=20Oli=
ver=20include=20"The=20Harmless=20Building"=20included=20in=20his=20fine=20Palad=
in=20edition.=20It=20is=20the=20readership=20who=20let=20these=20Paladin=20publi=
cations=20down=20by=20not=20buying=20them.=20That=20area=20of=20England=20covere=
d=20in=20his=20novel=20I=20find=20very=20interesting=20=20though=20my=20trips=20=
there=20have=20been=20few.=20These=20book=20were=20all=20classics=20but=20failed=
=20to=20ignite=20the=20public=20interest.=20=0A=0AOliver=20covers=20in=20"The=20=
Harmless=20Building"=20the=20absurb=20worlds=20of=20childhood=20into=20adulthood=
=20with=20rare=20honesty.=20Rather=20than=20the=20usual=20perceptions=20of=20chi=
ldhood=20being=20close=20to=20bliss=20he=20sees=20it=20as=20a=20nightmare.=20In=20=
my=20own=20humble=20view=20in=20childhood=20we=20discover=20many=20horrors=20tha=
t=20most=20never=20recover=20from=20in=20adulthood.=20Oliver=20does=20not=20base=
=20it=20solely=20in=20childhood=20but=20the=20roots=20are=20there.=20=0A=0AMy=20=
case=20rests=20on=20Douglas=20Oliver=20will=20explore=20his=20other=20works=20pr=
ior=20to=20Paris=20and=20America=20in=20due=20course.=20In=20no=20way=20am=20I=20=
knocking=20Alice=20Notley=20or=20indeed=20his=20journalistic=20work=20with=20AFP=
.=20Merely=20I=20am=20expressing=20regret=20Douglas=20did=20not=20continue=20to=20=
stick=20with=20his=20original=20project.=20My=20view=20to=20close=20this=20secti=
on=20is=20that=20I=20rate=20him=20very=20highly=20indeed=20as=20a=20great=20Engl=
ish=20poet.=20Often=20us=20Celts=20blow=20our=20trumpets=20louder=20but=20we=20a=
lso=20must=20realise=20these=20islands=20are=20linked=20by=20geology=20and=20mut=
ual=20histories.=20I=20am=20going=20to=20move=20on=20to=20my=20view=20on=20the=20=
later=20works=20Tim=20in=20a=20fresh=20message.=0A=0ACheers=0A=0AS=0A=0A-----Ori=
ginal=20Message-----=0AFrom:[log in to unmask]
o:=20BRITISH-IRISH-POETS=20=0ASent:=20Fri,=2012=20Dec=202014=209:51=0ASubject:=20=
Re:=20A=20Good=20Point=0A=0A??????????????=20What?=0AAre=20calling=20really=20ca=
lling=20Arrondissements=20and=20the=20absolutely=20brilliant=20Whisper=20Louise=20=
a=20decline=20Sean?=0ACheersTim=20-=20Perplexed=20in=20Preston.=0AOn=2010=20Dec=20=
2014,=20at=2023:48,=20Sean=20Carey=20wrote:=0AIn=20Doug=20Oliver's=20case=20I=20=
feel=20his=20work=20declined=20in=20his=20last=20marriage=20as=20Notley=20was=20=
the=20influence=20on=20his=20last=20works.=0A=0A=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=20=20"It=20ma=
y=20well=20be=20the=20case=20that=20one=20hasto=20wait=20a=20long=20time=20to=20=
find=20out=20whether=20thetitle=20of=20avant-garde=20is=20deserved."=20=20=20=20=
=20=20=20=20=20?Jean-Fran?ois=20Lyotard=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DPierre=20Joris=20=20cel=
l=20phone:=20518=20225=207123=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=
=20=20=20=20=20email:[log in to unmask]://pierrejoris.comNomadics=20blog=
:http://pierrejoris.com/blog/=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0A=0A__________________________=
___________________________Coming=20in=20September,=20October=20&=20December:=0A=
=0ABarzakh(Poems=202000-2012)=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20A=20Voice=20Full=20of=20Cit=
ies:=09=09=09=09=09Paul=20Celan:Breathturn=20into=20Timestead=09=09=09by=20Pierr=
e=20Joris=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20The=20Colle=
cted=20Essays=20of=20Robert=20Kelly=09=09The=20Collected=20Later=20Poetry=20=20=20=
=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=
=20=20Edited=20by=20Pierre=20Joris=20&=20Peter=20Cockelbergh=20Translated=20&=20=
with=20commentary=20by=20Pierre=20Joris=0ABlack=20Widow=20Press=09=09=09=20=20=20=
=20=20=20=20=20Contra=20Mundum=20Press=09=09=09=09=09Farrar=20Straus=20&=20Girou=
xhttp://www.blackwidowpress.com/=20/=20http://contramundum.net/=20=20=20=20=20=20=
=20=20=20=20=20http://us.macmillan.com/books/9780374125981______________________=
_______________________________=0APierre=20Joris=0Acell:=20518=20225=207123=0Aem=
ail:[log in to unmask]://pierrejoris.com=0ANomadics=20blog:http://pierre=
joris.com/blog/______________________________________________________I=20don?t=20=
know=20if=20we=20can=20get=20rid=20of=20our=20?soul=20waste?more=20easilythan=20=
of=20our=20?atomic=20waste?=20?=20Paul=20Celan__________________________________=
____________________=0A=0A
----------MB_8D1E47C00F00391_1820_D24C8_webmail-va136.sysops.aol.com
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
True=20to=20a=20degree=20but=20I=20feel=20he=20lost=20something=20when=20he=20le=
ft=20England.=20What=20he=20left=20us=20is=20wonderful=20work=20on=20English=20s=
ubject=20matter=20Pierre.<br><br>Then=20on=20the=20view=20he=20held=20on=20Paul=20=
Buck=20and=20others=20he=20missed=20their=20love=20of=20qualiy=20French=20advanc=
es?<br><br><br><br>-----Original=20Message-----<br>From:[log in to unmask]<b=
r>To:=20BRITISH-IRISH-POETS=20<[log in to unmask]><br>Sent:=20Fr=
i,=2012=20Dec=202014=2017:56<br>Subject:=20Re:=20Douglas=20Oliver<br><br>=0D=0A<=
div=20id=3D"AOLMsgPart_2_7f11ed06-e8b8-4dc1-9471-47628584b195">=0D=0A<div=20styl=
e=3D"word-wrap:=20break-word;=20-webkit-nbsp-mode:=20space;=20-webkit-line-break=
:=20after-white-space;"=20class=3D"=20aolReplacedBody">I=20agree=20with=20Tim:=20=
for=20me=20Arrondissements=20and=20the=20Whisper=20Louise=20are=20certainly=20sp=
lendid=20works=20&=20among=20the=20best=20he=20did.=20Are=20you=20getting=20=
a=20bit=20nationalistic=20there,=20Sean?=20Looks=20like=20you=20like=20the=20wor=
k=20he=20did=20before=20he=20left=20the=20UK=20and=20nothing=20after?<div=20clas=
s=3D"aolmail_"><br=20class=3D"aolmail_"></div><div=20class=3D"aolmail_">Pierre<b=
r=20class=3D"aolmail_"><div><blockquote=20type=3D"cite"=20class=3D"aolmail_"><di=
v=20class=3D"aolmail_">On=20Dec=2012,=202014,=20at=2011:35=20PM,=20Sean=20Carey=20=
<<a=20href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]"=20class=3D"aolmail_">sean.carey1@=
AOL.CO.UK</a>>=20wrote:</div><br=20class=3D"aolmail_Apple-interchange-newline=
"><div=20class=3D"aolmail_">Overall=20I=20rate=20his=20English=20work=20very=20h=
ighly=20where=20he=20hit=20a=20rich=20vein=20that=20I=20feel=20could=20have=20co=
ntinued.=20The=20move=20to=20Paris=20more=20or=20less=20ended=20that=20phase=20l=
eaving=20a=20sense=20of=20unfinished=20business.=20His=20depth=20of=20insight=20=
into=20Dorset=20was=20amazing=20then=20"The=20Infant=20and=20The=20Pearl&qu=
ot;=20evoked=20a=20decade=20in=20English=20history.=20That=20era=20is=20now=20re=
mote=20but=20a=20lot=20of=20it=20still=20is=20apt=20with=20some=20real=20poetic=20=
intuition=20shown.=20Others=20have=20tried=20Place=20poems=20while=20many=20atte=
mpt=20political=20poems=20involving=20English=20politics=20but=20Oliver=20master=
ed=20it.=20<br=20class=3D"aolmail_"><br=20class=3D"aolmail_">Any=20long=20poem=20=
involves=20huge=20risks=20to=20sustain=20the=20theme=20and=20subject=20matter.=20=
"The=20Infant=20and=20The=20Pearl"=20has=20had=20its=20critics=20as=20=
well=20as=20its=20admirers.=20The=20other=20English=20works=20of=20Oliver=20incl=
ude=20"The=20Harmless=20Building"=20included=20in=20his=20fine=20Palad=
in=20edition.=20It=20is=20the=20readership=20who=20let=20these=20Paladin=20publi=
cations=20down=20by=20not=20buying=20them.=20That=20area=20of=20England=20covere=
d=20in=20his=20novel=20I=20find=20very=20interesting=20=20though=20my=20trips=20=
there=20have=20been=20few.=20These=20book=20were=20all=20classics=20but=20failed=
=20to=20ignite=20the=20public=20interest.=20<br=20class=3D"aolmail_"><br=20class=
=3D"aolmail_"><br=20class=3D"aolmail_">Oliver=20covers=20in=20"The=20Harmle=
ss=20Building"=20the=20absurb=20worlds=20of=20childhood=20into=20adulthood=20=
with=20rare=20honesty.=20Rather=20than=20the=20usual=20perceptions=20of=20childh=
ood=20being=20close=20to=20bliss=20he=20sees=20it=20as=20a=20nightmare.=20In=20m=
y=20own=20humble=20view=20in=20childhood=20we=20discover=20many=20horrors=20that=
=20most=20never=20recover=20from=20in=20adulthood.=20Oliver=20does=20not=20base=20=
it=20solely=20in=20childhood=20but=20the=20roots=20are=20there.=20<br=20class=3D=
"aolmail_"><br=20class=3D"aolmail_">My=20case=20rests=20on=20Douglas=20Oliver=20=
will=20explore=20his=20other=20works=20prior=20to=20Paris=20and=20America=20in=20=
due=20course.=20In=20no=20way=20am=20I=20knocking=20Alice=20Notley=20or=20indeed=
=20his=20journalistic=20work=20with=20AFP.=20Merely=20I=20am=20expressing=20regr=
et=20Douglas=20did=20not=20continue=20to=20stick=20with=20his=20original=20proje=
ct.=20My=20view=20to=20close=20this=20section=20is=20that=20I=20rate=20him=20ver=
y=20highly=20indeed=20as=20a=20great=20English=20poet.=20Often=20us=20Celts=20bl=
ow=20our=20trumpets=20louder=20but=20we=20also=20must=20realise=20these=20island=
s=20are=20linked=20by=20geology=20and=20mutual=20histories.=20I=20am=20going=20t=
o=20move=20on=20to=20my=20view=20on=20the=20later=20works=20Tim=20in=20a=20fresh=
=20message.<br=20class=3D"aolmail_"><br=20class=3D"aolmail_">Cheers<br=20class=3D=
"aolmail_"><br=20class=3D"aolmail_">S<br=20class=3D"aolmail_"><br=20class=3D"aol=
mail_"><br=20class=3D"aolmail_"><br=20class=3D"aolmail_">-----Original=20Message=
-----<br=20class=3D"aolmail_">From:=20<a=20href=3D"mailto:0000002899e7d020-dmarc=
[log in to unmask]"=20class=3D"aolmail_">0000002899e7d020-dmarc-request@JIS=
CMAIL.AC.UK</a><br=20class=3D"aolmail_">To:=20BRITISH-IRISH-POETS=20<br=20class=3D=
"aolmail_">Sent:=20Fri,=2012=20Dec=202014=209:51<br=20class=3D"aolmail_">Subject=
:=20Re:=20A=20Good=20Point<br=20class=3D"aolmail_"><br=20class=3D"aolmail_">=0A<=
div=20id=3D"aolmail_AOLMsgPart_1_631af241-cf1e-4021-a7d7-c6e338628907"=20class=3D=
"aolmail_">=0A<div=20class=3D"aolmail_aolReplacedBody"=20style=3D"word-wrap:=20b=
reak-word;=20-webkit-nbsp-mode:=20space;=20-webkit-line-break:=20after-white-spa=
ce;=20">??????????????=20What?<div=20class=3D"aolmail_"><br=20class=3D"aolmail_"=
></div><div=20class=3D"aolmail_">Are=20calling=20really=20calling=20Arrondisseme=
nts=20and=20the=20absolutely=20brilliant=20Whisper=20Louise=20a=20decline=20Sean=
? </div><div=20class=3D"aolmail_"><br=20class=3D"aolmail_"></div><div=20cla=
ss=3D"aolmail_">Cheers</div><div=20class=3D"aolmail_">Tim=20-=20Perplexed=20in=20=
Preston.</div><div=20class=3D"aolmail_"> <br=20class=3D"aolmail_"><di=
v=20class=3D"aolmail_"><div=20class=3D"aolmail_">On=2010=20Dec=202014,=20at=2023=
:48,=20Sean=20Carey=20wrote:</div><br=20class=3D"aolmail_aolmail_Apple-interchan=
ge-newline"><blockquote=20type=3D"cite"=20class=3D"aolmail_"><span=20class=3D"ao=
lmail_aolmail_Apple-style-span"=20style=3D"border-collapse:=20separate;=20font-f=
amily:=20Helvetica;=20font-style:=20normal;=20font-variant:=20normal;=20font-wei=
ght:=20normal;=20letter-spacing:=20normal;=20line-height:=20normal;=20orphans:=20=
2;=20text-align:=20-webkit-auto;=20text-indent:=200px;=20text-transform:=20none;=
=20white-space:=20normal;=20widows:=202;=20word-spacing:=200px;=20border-spacing=
:=200px;=20-webkit-text-decorations-in-effect:=20none;=20-webkit-text-stroke-wid=
th:=200px;=20font-size:=20inherit;">In=20Doug=20Oliver's=20case=20I=20feel=20=
his=20work=20declined=20in=20his=20last=20marriage=20as=20Notley=20was=20 t=
he=20influence=20on=20his=20last=20works.</span></blockquote></div><br=20class=3D=
"aolmail_"></div></div>=0A</div>=0A</div></blockquote></div><br=20class=3D"aolma=
il_"><div=20class=3D"aolmail_">=0A<span=20class=3D"aolmail_Apple-style-span"=20s=
tyle=3D"border-collapse:=20separate;=20font-family:=20'Times=20New=20Roman';=20b=
order-spacing:=200px;"><div=20style=3D"word-wrap:=20break-word;=20-webkit-nbsp-m=
ode:=20space;=20-webkit-line-break:=20after-white-space;"=20class=3D"aolmail_"><=
span=20class=3D"aolmail_Apple-style-span"=20style=3D"border-collapse:=20separate=
;=20color:=20rgb(0,=200,=200);=20font-family:=20Helvetica;=20font-style:=20norma=
l;=20font-variant:=20normal;=20font-weight:=20normal;=20letter-spacing:=20normal=
;=20line-height:=20normal;=20orphans:=202;=20text-indent:=200px;=20text-transfor=
m:=20none;=20white-space:=20normal;=20widows:=202;=20word-spacing:=200px;=20bord=
er-spacing:=200px;=20-webkit-text-decorations-in-effect:=20none;=20-webkit-text-=
stroke-width:=200px;"><div=20style=3D"word-wrap:=20break-word;=20-webkit-nbsp-mo=
de:=20space;=20-webkit-line-break:=20after-white-space;"=20class=3D"aolmail_"><s=
pan=20class=3D"aolmail_Apple-style-span"=20style=3D"border-collapse:=20separate;=
=20color:=20rgb(0,=200,=200);=20font-family:=20Helvetica;=20font-style:=20normal=
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an=20style=3D"font-size:=2015px;"=20class=3D"aolmail_">_________________________=
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mal;=20white-space:=20pre;">=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09<=
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span=20style=3D"font-weight:=20normal;"=20class=3D"aolmail_"><span=20class=3D"ao=
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style=3D"font-weight:=20normal;=20font-style:=20italic;=20white-space:=20pre;">=09=
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<a=20target=3D_blank=20href=3D"http://www.blackwidowpress.com/"=20style=3D"text-=
align:=20-webkit-auto;=20font-family:=20Garamond;"=20class=3D"aolmail_">http://w=
ww.blackwidowpress.com/</a> =20 /=20 <a=20target=3D_blank=20href=3D=
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<a=20target=3D_blank=20href=3D"http://us.macmillan.com/books/9780374125981=
"=20style=3D"text-align:=20-webkit-auto;=20font-family:=20Garamond;"=20class=3D"=
aolmail_">http://us.macmillan.com/books/9780374125981</a></div><div=20style=3D"f=
ont-style:=20normal;=20font-weight:=20normal;=20word-wrap:=20break-word;=20-webk=
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lmail_"><span=20style=3D"font-family:=20Times;=20font-size:=2015px;=20font-weigh=
t:=20normal;=20font-style:=20normal;"=20class=3D"aolmail_">_____________________=
________________________________<br=20class=3D"aolmail_">Pierre=20Joris <br=
=20class=3D"aolmail_">cell:=20518=20225=207123 <br=20class=3D"aolmail_">ema=
il: <a=20href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]"=20class=3D"aolmail_">jorpierre=
@gmail.com</a> <br=20class=3D"aolmail_"><a=20target=3D_blank=20href=3D"http=
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lass=3D"aolmail_">Nomadics=20blog: <a=20target=3D_blank=20href=3D"http://pi=
errejoris.com/blog/"=20class=3D"aolmail_">http://pierrejoris.com/blog/</a> =
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=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2014 10:56:04 +0000
Reply-To: British & Irish poets <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: British & Irish poets <[log in to unmask]>
From: Tim Allen <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Douglas Oliver Continued
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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The first time I read Oliver was Pearl and my reading of him went on =
from there. Of course I agree about the quality of the early stuff but I =
would make a strong case for the later as well - it was the later stuff =
that I read more thoroughly because I was reviewing it in Terrible Work =
- what about Salvo for Africa - an extraordinary work and one that =
should have got so much more notice and comment. I never enjoyed =
Penniless Politics much but don't really know why - certainly not =
because of the 'politics' - I think I found it a bit flat and too vague =
or something, I must go back to it.
I don't really know what to say about your contention that Alice had a =
negative writing influence on him. Their work still seemed to be very =
much their own to me. I am a huge fan of Alice Notley's poetry and =
consider her to be one of the very best so maybe that colours my view =
but could you to give a bit of detail about that 'influence' - do you =
mean subject, style, both, or what? The only thing I would say is that I =
think the general American influence helped to free his work up a bit.
Cheers
Tim
On 12 Dec 2014, at 23:34, Sean Carey wrote:
> I would take the view now that "Penniless Politics" was not a total =
failure yet I see it as a project that is a good example of an idea best =
left as an idea. At that stage Douglas was living in America. "Poetry =
and Narrative In Performance" proceeded it and his Paladin masterpiece =
emerged in 1990. For me this is a classic as is "Kind" which takes in =
his work from 1969 onwards. Wendy Mulford published "In the Cave of =
Suicession" in 1974. This work in its own way is built on Oliver heading =
into an actual cave with a manual typewriter. What emerged was a =
stunning poem I am amazed that is not seen as an epic in a multi media =
sense. Lyrical and surreal and totally buzzing with rhythm. He captures =
so much in this work to a degree rarely seen in poetry. It puts what he =
achieved in "The Harmless Building" on to a new level.
>=20
> My point in a nutshell is that Oliver should have continued to explore =
rather than perhaps listen too much to Alice Notley? His work and =
Notley's on reflection prior to "Penniless Politics" were poles apart. =
She is a big hitter in her own field Couples who write can often feel a =
shadow if either is more acclaimed. It is a common problem all through =
literary history as are relationships within poetic groups or circles =
literary. Often political parties are lonely hearts clubs and =
journalists never stop being journalists. Oliver was a working =
journalist for a lot of his life.
>=20
> The later works I feel while impressive never reached the heights of =
his output in the Paladin and in "Kind". I see the shadow of Notley in =
the two final books. A harsh judgement but one based on Oliver's own =
strengths.
>=20
> On a final note I regret Douglas did not value the Paul Buck driven =
writing that was published in Curtains. Given that his own work covered =
many sexual areas I never saw the logic of not recognising the advances =
made by Paul Buck.
>=20
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2014 12:07:49 +0000
Reply-To: British & Irish poets <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: British & Irish poets <[log in to unmask]>
From: Tim Allen <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Douglas Oliver Continued
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1085)
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I meant of course The Infant and the Pearl. Pearl was Barry's - rather a =
different kettle of fish.
On 13 Dec 2014, at 10:56, Tim Allen wrote:
> The first time I read Oliver was Pearl=20
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<html><head></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">I =
meant of course The Infant and the Pearl. Pearl was Barry's - rather a =
different kettle of fish.<div><br><div><div>On 13 Dec 2014, at 10:56, =
Tim Allen wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: =
separate; font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: =
normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: =
auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; ">The first =
time I read Oliver was Pearl<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></blockquote></div><br=
></div></body></html>=
--Apple-Mail-3--68877962--
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2014 08:31:59 -0500
Reply-To: British & Irish poets <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: British & Irish poets <[log in to unmask]>
From: Sean Carey <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Douglas Oliver Continued
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="--------MB_8D1E4F04EC62EC6_E2C_3824C_webmail-vm091.sysops.aol.com"
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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The=20early=20death=20of=20Douglas=20left=20a=20vacuum=20leaving=20us=20wonder=20=
where=20he=20would=20have=20gone=20in=20his=20work.=20I=20like=20Alice=20who=20s=
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to=20poets=20in=20the=20Salmon=20or=20Gallery=20Presses=20in=20Ireland=20they=20=
indeed=20know=20about=20her=20work.=20That=20would=20not=20apply=20to=20many=20o=
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rt=20Creeley=20read=20in=20Bewley's=20Cafe=20in=20Dublin's=20Grafton=20Street=20=
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is=20a=20tribute=20to=20her=20in=20that=20context.=0A=0AOften=20the=20mainstream=
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May=20next=20year=20we=20are=20all=20on=20the=20edge=20of=20civil=20unrest.=20An=
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d=20ditch=20that=20policy=20at=20once.=20A=20lot=20is=20at=20stake=20that=20took=
=20generations=20to=20build=20after=20another=20fascist=20surge=20led=20us=20int=
o=20WW2.=20The=20likes=20of=20Douglas=20Oliver=20would=20barely=20recognise=20th=
e=20English=20mood=20of=202014.=20=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A-----Original=20Message-----=0A=
From:[log in to unmask]:=20BRITISH-IRISH-POETS=20<BRITISH-IRISH-POETS@JISC=
MAIL.AC.UK>=0ASent:=20Sat,=2013=20Dec=202014=207:05=0ASubject:=20Re:=20Douglas=20=
Oliver=20Continued=0A=0A=0A=0AThe=20first=20time=20I=20read=20Oliver=20was=20Pea=
rl=20and=20my=20reading=20of=20him=20went=20on=20from=20there.=20=0AOf=20course=20=
I=20agree=20about=20the=20quality=20of=20the=20early=20stuff=20but=20I=20would=20=
make=20a=20strong=20=0Acase=20for=20the=20later=20as=20well=20-=20it=20was=20the=
=20later=20stuff=20that=20I=20read=20more=20thoroughly=20=0Abecause=20I=20was=20=
reviewing=20it=20in=20Terrible=20Work=20-=20what=20about=20Salvo=20for=20Africa=20=
-=20an=20=0Aextraordinary=20work=20and=20one=20that=20should=20have=20got=20so=20=
much=20more=20notice=20and=20comment.=20=0AI=20never=20enjoyed=20Penniless=20Pol=
itics=20much=20but=20don't=20really=20know=20why=20-=20certainly=20=0Anot=20beca=
use=20of=20the=20'politics'=20-=20I=20think=20I=20found=20it=20a=20bit=20flat=20=
and=20too=20vague=20or=20=0Asomething,=20I=20must=20go=20back=20to=20it.=0A=0AI=20=
don't=20really=20know=20what=20to=20say=20about=20your=20contention=20that=20Ali=
ce=20had=20a=20negative=20=0Awriting=20influence=20on=20him.=20Their=20work=20st=
ill=20seemed=20to=20be=20very=20much=20their=20own=20to=20=0Ame.=20I=20am=20a=20=
huge=20fan=20of=20Alice=20Notley's=20poetry=20and=20consider=20her=20to=20be=20o=
ne=20of=20the=20=0Avery=20best=20so=20maybe=20that=20colours=20my=20view=20but=20=
could=20you=20to=20give=20a=20bit=20of=20detail=20=0Aabout=20that=20'influence'=20=
=20-=20do=20you=20mean=20subject,=20style,=20both,=20or=20what?=20The=20only=20=0A=
thing=20I=20would=20say=20is=20that=20I=20think=20the=20general=20American=20inf=
luence=20helped=20to=20free=20=0Ahis=20work=20up=20a=20bit.=0A=0ACheers=0A=0ATim=
=0A=0AOn=2012=20Dec=202014,=20at=2023:34,=20Sean=20Carey=20wrote:=0A=0A>=20I=20w=
ould=20take=20the=20view=20now=20that=20"Penniless=20Politics"=20was=20not=20a=20=
total=20failure=20=0Ayet=20I=20see=20it=20as=20a=20project=20that=20is=20a=20goo=
d=20example=20of=20an=20idea=20best=20left=20as=20an=20=0Aidea.=20At=20that=20st=
age=20Douglas=20was=20living=20in=20America.=20"Poetry=20and=20Narrative=20In=20=
=0APerformance"=20proceeded=20it=20and=20his=20Paladin=20masterpiece=20emerged=20=
in=201990.=20For=20me=20=0Athis=20is=20a=20classic=20as=20is=20"Kind"=20which=20=
takes=20in=20his=20work=20from=201969=20onwards.=20Wendy=20=0AMulford=20publishe=
d=20"In=20the=20Cave=20of=20Suicession"=20in=201974.=20This=20work=20in=20its=20=
own=20way=20=0Ais=20built=20on=20Oliver=20heading=20into=20an=20actual=20cave=20=
with=20a=20manual=20typewriter.=20What=20=0Aemerged=20was=20a=20stunning=20poem=20=
I=20am=20amazed=20that=20is=20not=20seen=20as=20an=20epic=20in=20a=20multi=20=0A=
media=20sense.=20Lyrical=20and=20surreal=20and=20totally=20buzzing=20with=20rhyt=
hm.=20He=20captures=20so=20=0Amuch=20in=20this=20work=20to=20a=20degree=20rarely=
=20seen=20in=20poetry.=20It=20puts=20what=20he=20achieved=20in=20=0A"The=20Harml=
ess=20Building"=20on=20to=20a=20new=20level.=0A>=20=0A>=20My=20point=20in=20a=20=
nutshell=20is=20that=20Oliver=20should=20have=20continued=20to=20explore=20rathe=
r=20=0Athan=20perhaps=20listen=20too=20much=20to=20Alice=20Notley?=20His=20work=20=
and=20Notley's=20on=20=0Areflection=20prior=20to=20"Penniless=20Politics"=20were=
=20poles=20apart.=20She=20is=20a=20big=20hitter=20=0Ain=20her=20own=20field=20Co=
uples=20who=20write=20can=20often=20feel=20a=20shadow=20if=20either=20is=20more=20=
=0Aacclaimed.=20It=20is=20a=20common=20problem=20all=20through=20literary=20hist=
ory=20as=20are=20=0Arelationships=20within=20poetic=20groups=20or=20circles=20li=
terary.=20Often=20political=20parties=20=0Aare=20lonely=20hearts=20clubs=20and=20=
journalists=20never=20stop=20being=20journalists.=20Oliver=20was=20=0Aa=20workin=
g=20journalist=20for=20a=20lot=20of=20his=20life.=0A>=20=0A>=20The=20later=20wor=
ks=20I=20feel=20while=20impressive=20never=20reached=20the=20heights=20of=20his=20=
=0Aoutput=20in=20the=20Paladin=20and=20in=20"Kind".=20I=20see=20the=20shadow=20o=
f=20Notley=20in=20the=20two=20final=20=0Abooks.=20A=20harsh=20judgement=20but=20=
one=20based=20on=20Oliver's=20own=20strengths.=0A>=20=0A>=20On=20a=20final=20not=
e=20I=20regret=20Douglas=20did=20not=20value=20the=20Paul=20Buck=20driven=20writ=
ing=20=0Athat=20was=20published=20in=20Curtains.=20Given=20that=20his=20own=20wo=
rk=20covered=20many=20sexual=20=0Aareas=20I=20never=20saw=20the=20logic=20of=20n=
ot=20recognising=20the=20advances=20made=20by=20Paul=20Buck.=0A>=20=0A=0A
----------MB_8D1E4F04EC62EC6_E2C_3824C_webmail-vm091.sysops.aol.com
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
The=20early=20death=20of=20Douglas=20left=20a=20vacuum=20leaving=20us=20wonder=20=
where=20he=20would=20have=20gone=20in=20his=20work.=20I=20like=20Alice=20who=20s=
eems=20to=20cross=20the=20poetic=20divides=20very=20well.=20If=20mention=20her=20=
to=20poets=20in=20the=20Salmon=20or=20Gallery=20Presses=20in=20Ireland=20they=20=
indeed=20know=20about=20her=20work.=20That=20would=20not=20apply=20to=20many=20o=
ther=20poets=20who=20write=20in=20her=20style.=20<br><br>Some=20years=20ago=20Ro=
bert=20Creeley=20read=20in=20Bewley's=20Cafe=20in=20Dublin's=20Grafton=20Street=20=
and=20the=20poet=20who=20introduced=20him=20had=20never=20heard=20of=20him.=20Th=
is=20despite=20the=20fact=20that=20the=20same=20poet=20went=20on=20to=20edit=20a=
nd=20present=20poetry=20programmes=20for=20radio.=20So=20Alice=20being=20known=20=
is=20a=20tribute=20to=20her=20in=20that=20context.<br><br>Often=20the=20mainstre=
am=20likes=20to=20claim=20poets=20as=20English=20if=20they=20are=20an=20easy=20r=
ead=20as=20well=20as=20easy=20to=20teach.=20Indeed=20that=20applies=20in=20most=20=
poetic=20cultures.=20In=20this=20year=20of=20recalling=20World=20War=20One=20we=20=
had=20poetic=20groups=20looking=20to=20get=20their=20poet=20labeled=20as=20a=20"=
war=20poet"=20which=20meant=20admission=20to=20events,=20etc.=20But=20on=20that=20=
list=20were=20many=20easily=20read=20writers=20with=20others=20being=20ignored=20=
regardless=20of=20their=20actual=20war=20record.=20<br><br>The=20power=20of=20Ol=
iver=20for=20me=20is=20his=20grasp=20of=20what=20it=20means=20to=20grow=20up=20i=
n=20England=20after=20a=20dreadful=20war=20destroyed=20so=20much.=20That=20of=20=
course=20means=20first=20the=20loss=20of=20lives=20as=20well=20as=20massive=20lo=
sses=20of=20vital=20services=20wlthin=20communities.=20To=20see=20England=20now=20=
go=20with=20the=20UKIP=20surge=20is=20depressing=20and=20the=20contempt=20for=20=
democratic=20structures.=20If=20UKIP=20hold=20the=20balance=20of=20power=20after=
=20May=20next=20year=20we=20are=20all=20on=20the=20edge=20of=20civil=20unrest.=20=
Any=20left=20wing=20party=20that=20agrees=20with=20UKIP=20on=20any=20issue=20sho=
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ok=20generations=20to=20build=20after=20another=20fascist=20surge=20led=20us=20i=
nto=20WW2.=20The=20likes=20of=20Douglas=20Oliver=20would=20barely=20recognise=20=
the=20English=20mood=20of=202014.=20<br><br><br><br><br>-----Original=20Message-=
----<br>From:[log in to unmask]<br>To:=20BRITISH-IRISH-POETS=20<BRITISH-IRISH-P=
[log in to unmask]><br>Sent:=20Sat,=2013=20Dec=202014=207:05<br>Subject:=20Re:=20=
Douglas=20Oliver=20Continued<br><br>=0D=0A<div=20id=3D"AOLMsgPart_0_8e9510ff-061=
7-481c-a3a0-dbf2869f3718"=20style=3D"margin:=200px;font-family:=20Tahoma,=20Verd=
ana,=20Arial,=20Sans-Serif;font-size:=2012px;color:=20#000;background-color:=20#=
fff;">=0D=0A=0D=0A<pre=20style=3D"font-size:=209pt;"><tt>The=20first=20time=20I=20=
read=20Oliver=20was=20Pearl=20and=20my=20reading=20of=20him=20went=20on=20from=20=
there.=20=0D=0AOf=20course=20I=20agree=20about=20the=20quality=20of=20the=20earl=
y=20stuff=20but=20I=20would=20make=20a=20strong=20=0D=0Acase=20for=20the=20later=
=20as=20well=20-=20it=20was=20the=20later=20stuff=20that=20I=20read=20more=20tho=
roughly=20=0D=0Abecause=20I=20was=20reviewing=20it=20in=20Terrible=20Work=20-=20=
what=20about=20Salvo=20for=20Africa=20-=20an=20=0D=0Aextraordinary=20work=20and=20=
one=20that=20should=20have=20got=20so=20much=20more=20notice=20and=20comment.=20=
=0D=0AI=20never=20enjoyed=20Penniless=20Politics=20much=20but=20don't=20really=20=
know=20why=20-=20certainly=20=0D=0Anot=20because=20of=20the=20'politics'=20-=20I=
=20think=20I=20found=20it=20a=20bit=20flat=20and=20too=20vague=20or=20=0D=0Asome=
thing,=20I=20must=20go=20back=20to=20it.=0D=0A=0D=0AI=20don't=20really=20know=20=
what=20to=20say=20about=20your=20contention=20that=20Alice=20had=20a=20negative=20=
=0D=0Awriting=20influence=20on=20him.=20Their=20work=20still=20seemed=20to=20be=20=
very=20much=20their=20own=20to=20=0D=0Ame.=20I=20am=20a=20huge=20fan=20of=20Alic=
e=20Notley's=20poetry=20and=20consider=20her=20to=20be=20one=20of=20the=20=0D=0A=
very=20best=20so=20maybe=20that=20colours=20my=20view=20but=20could=20you=20to=20=
give=20a=20bit=20of=20detail=20=0D=0Aabout=20that=20'influence'=20=20-=20do=20yo=
u=20mean=20subject,=20style,=20both,=20or=20what?=20The=20only=20=0D=0Athing=20I=
=20would=20say=20is=20that=20I=20think=20the=20general=20American=20influence=20=
helped=20to=20free=20=0D=0Ahis=20work=20up=20a=20bit.=0D=0A=0D=0ACheers=0D=0A=0D=
=0ATim=0D=0A=0D=0AOn=2012=20Dec=202014,=20at=2023:34,=20Sean=20Carey=20wrote:=0D=
=0A=0D=0A>=20I=20would=20take=20the=20view=20now=20that=20"Penniless=20P=
olitics"=20was=20not=20a=20total=20failure=20=0D=0Ayet=20I=20see=20it=20as=20=
a=20project=20that=20is=20a=20good=20example=20of=20an=20idea=20best=20left=20as=
=20an=20=0D=0Aidea.=20At=20that=20stage=20Douglas=20was=20living=20in=20America.=
=20"Poetry=20and=20Narrative=20In=20=0D=0APerformance"=20proceeded=20i=
t=20and=20his=20Paladin=20masterpiece=20emerged=20in=201990.=20For=20me=20=0D=0A=
this=20is=20a=20classic=20as=20is=20"Kind"=20which=20takes=20in=20his=20=
work=20from=201969=20onwards.=20Wendy=20=0D=0AMulford=20published=20"In=20t=
he=20Cave=20of=20Suicession"=20in=201974.=20This=20work=20in=20its=20own=20=
way=20=0D=0Ais=20built=20on=20Oliver=20heading=20into=20an=20actual=20cave=20wit=
h=20a=20manual=20typewriter.=20What=20=0D=0Aemerged=20was=20a=20stunning=20poem=20=
I=20am=20amazed=20that=20is=20not=20seen=20as=20an=20epic=20in=20a=20multi=20=0D=
=0Amedia=20sense.=20Lyrical=20and=20surreal=20and=20totally=20buzzing=20with=20r=
hythm.=20He=20captures=20so=20=0D=0Amuch=20in=20this=20work=20to=20a=20degree=20=
rarely=20seen=20in=20poetry.=20It=20puts=20what=20he=20achieved=20in=20=0D=0A&qu=
ot;The=20Harmless=20Building"=20on=20to=20a=20new=20level.=0D=0A>=20=0D=0A=
>=20My=20point=20in=20a=20nutshell=20is=20that=20Oliver=20should=20have=20con=
tinued=20to=20explore=20rather=20=0D=0Athan=20perhaps=20listen=20too=20much=20to=
=20Alice=20Notley?=20His=20work=20and=20Notley's=20on=20=0D=0Areflection=20prior=
=20to=20"Penniless=20Politics"=20were=20poles=20apart.=20She=20is=20a=20=
big=20hitter=20=0D=0Ain=20her=20own=20field=20Couples=20who=20write=20can=20ofte=
n=20feel=20a=20shadow=20if=20either=20is=20more=20=0D=0Aacclaimed.=20It=20is=20a=
=20common=20problem=20all=20through=20literary=20history=20as=20are=20=0D=0Arela=
tionships=20within=20poetic=20groups=20or=20circles=20literary.=20Often=20politi=
cal=20parties=20=0D=0Aare=20lonely=20hearts=20clubs=20and=20journalists=20never=20=
stop=20being=20journalists.=20Oliver=20was=20=0D=0Aa=20working=20journalist=20fo=
r=20a=20lot=20of=20his=20life.=0D=0A>=20=0D=0A>=20The=20later=20works=20I=20=
feel=20while=20impressive=20never=20reached=20the=20heights=20of=20his=20=0D=0Ao=
utput=20in=20the=20Paladin=20and=20in=20"Kind".=20I=20see=20the=20shad=
ow=20of=20Notley=20in=20the=20two=20final=20=0D=0Abooks.=20A=20harsh=20judgement=
=20but=20one=20based=20on=20Oliver's=20own=20strengths.=0D=0A>=20=0D=0A>=20=
On=20a=20final=20note=20I=20regret=20Douglas=20did=20not=20value=20the=20Paul=20=
Buck=20driven=20writing=20=0D=0Athat=20was=20published=20in=20Curtains.=20Given=20=
that=20his=20own=20work=20covered=20many=20sexual=20=0D=0Aareas=20I=20never=20sa=
w=20the=20logic=20of=20not=20recognising=20the=20advances=20made=20by=20Paul=20B=
uck.=0D=0A>=20=0D=0A</tt></pre>=0D=0A</div>=20<!--=20end=20of=20AOLMsgPart_0_=
8e9510ff-0617-481c-a3a0-dbf2869f3718=20-->=0D=0A
----------MB_8D1E4F04EC62EC6_E2C_3824C_webmail-vm091.sysops.aol.com--
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2014 14:03:42 +0000
Reply-To: British & Irish poets <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: British & Irish poets <[log in to unmask]>
From: Tim Allen <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Douglas Oliver Continued
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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Other poets who write in her style? I don't actually know of any other =
poets who write in her style. Over the years her work has become more =
and more individual and I can't think of anyone who writes with her =
particular mix of the personal and the mythic which has become a lot =
more European in its feel and imagery, certainly none of the big =
innovative American names, male or female. If there are others who =
resemble Notley in 'style' and quality I'd very much like to read them. =
Any suggestions out there?
On 13 Dec 2014, at 13:31, Sean Carey wrote:
> That would not apply to many other poets who write in her style.=20
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<html><head></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">Other =
poets who write in her style? I don't actually know of any other poets =
who write in her style. Over the years her work has become more and more =
individual and I can't think of anyone who writes with her particular =
mix of the personal and the mythic which has become a lot more European =
in its feel and imagery, certainly none of the big innovative American =
names, male or female. If there are others who resemble Notley in =
'style' and quality I'd very much like to read them. Any suggestions out =
there?<div><br><div><div>On 13 Dec 2014, at 13:31, Sean Carey =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: =
separate; font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: =
normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: =
auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; ">That would =
not apply to many other poets who write in her style.<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></blockquote></div><br=
></div></body></html>=
--Apple-Mail-4--61924993--
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2014 10:08:48 -0500
Reply-To: British & Irish poets <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: British & Irish poets <[log in to unmask]>
From: Sean Carey <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Alice's style
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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boundary="--------MB_8D1E4FDD51420BE_E2C_3959B_webmail-vm091.sysops.aol.com"
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By=20the=20mention=20of=20the=20Irish=20literary=20oracle=20who=20never=20heard=20=
of=20Creeley=20I=20purely=20put=20Notley=20as=20an=20example=20of=20a=20modern=20=
experimental=20poet=20known=20to=20writers=20who=20are=20in=20the=20Salmon=20or=20=
Gallery=20presses=20lists=20of=20regular=20publications.=20He=20was=20introducin=
g=20Robert=20as=20a=20virtual=20"unknown"=20who=20happened=20to=20be=20passing=20=
through=20Dublin.=20Notley=20is=20"known"=20which=20in=20itself=20is=20interesti=
ng=20mainly=20via=20the=20anthology=20format.=20Also=20indeed=20her=20work=20is=20=
respected=20by=20important=20academics=20who=20are=20known=20around=20the=20lite=
rary=20circuit.=20=0A=0AIn=20an=20Irish=20American=20context=20a=20look=20at=20J=
anice=20Fitzpatrick=20Simmons=20might=20yield=20Notleyesque=20poetry.=20Janice's=
=20material=20covers=20areas=20Alice=20explores.=20Another=20Irish=20worthy=20th=
e=20late=20James=20Liddy=20who=20produced=20fine=20work.=20Alice=20works=20on=20=
a=20big=20canvass=20which=20gives=20real=20power=20if=20one=20wants=20a=20full=20=
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=20more=20and=20more=20individual=20and=20I=20can't=20think=20of=20anyone=20who=20=
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in=20her=20style.=0A=0A
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By=20the=20mention=20of=20the=20Irish=20literary=20oracle=20who=20never=20heard=20=
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>-----Original=20Message-----<br>From:[log in to unmask]<br>To:=20BRITISH-IRISH=
-POETS=20<[log in to unmask]><br>Sent:=20Sat,=2013=20Dec=202014=20=
9:05<br>Subject:=20Re:=20Douglas=20Oliver=20Continued<br><br>=0D=0A<div=20id=3D"=
AOLMsgPart_1_b40db967-3194-4bdd-91df-e0dd848301a3">=0D=0A<div=20class=3D"aolRepl=
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her=20style?=20I=20don't=20actually=20know=20of=20any=20other=20poets=20who=20=
write=20in=20her=20style.=20Over=20the=20years=20her=20work=20has=20become=20mor=
e=20and=20more=20individual=20and=20I=20can't=20think=20of=20anyone=20who=20=
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'style'=20and=20quality=20I'd=20very=20much=20like=20to=20read=20the=
m.=20Any=20suggestions=20out=20there?<div><br><div><div>On=2013=20Dec=202014,=20=
at=2013:31,=20Sean=20Carey=20wrote:</div><br=20class=3D"aolmail_Apple-interchang=
e-newline"><blockquote=20type=3D"cite"><span=20class=3D"aolmail_Apple-style-span=
"=20style=3D"border-collapse:=20separate;=20font-family:=20Helvetica;=20font-sty=
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none;=20-webkit-text-size-adjust:=20auto;=20-webkit-text-stroke-width:=200px;=20=
font-size:=20medium;=20">That=20would=20not=20apply=20to=20many=20other=20poets=20=
who=20write=20in=20her=20style.<span=20class=3D"aolmail_Apple-converted-space">&=
nbsp;</span></span></blockquote></div><br></div></div>=0D=0A</div>=0D=0A
----------MB_8D1E4FDD51420BE_E2C_3959B_webmail-vm091.sysops.aol.com--
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2014 17:56:20 +0000
Reply-To: British & Irish poets <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: British & Irish poets <[log in to unmask]>
From: jeff harrison <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: At table
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My hounds=C2=A0are at table; they do not abhor the hart. I, Actaeon and the=
hart, abhor the hart as strongly as they will long for Actaeon.=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0
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<html><body><div style="color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size:16px"><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1418493014445_3671">My hounds are at table; they do not abhor the hart. I, Actaeon and the hart, abhor the hart as strongly as they will long for Actaeon.</div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div></div></body></html>
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Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2014 04:24:46 +0000
Reply-To: British & Irish poets <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: British & Irish poets <[log in to unmask]>
From: David Bircumshaw <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Douglas Oliver Continued
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Sean
The only thing I can say for definite about the next election is that the
wonderful Dennis Skinner is standing down. In the shape of things, it
should be a Labour landslide, but in the reality, with the lacklustre Ed
Milliband at the helm, it ain't gonna be so. I do fear another coalition,
thanks to the effects of UKIP and the opportunist Scots Nats. The Labour
Party sold its soul to the devil when it opened out to Tony Blair, the road
back is a long and possibly unattainable one. I can say, attest even, that
I have dealings with my constituency Labour MP on my own and others behalf,
and he and his staff have been little short of superb. It is at the
national level things go wrong.
Best
Dave
On 13 December 2014 at 13:31, Sean Carey <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> The early death of Douglas left a vacuum leaving us wonder where he would
> have gone in his work. I like Alice who seems to cross the poetic divides
> very well. If mention her to poets in the Salmon or Gallery Presses in
> Ireland they indeed know about her work. That would not apply to many other
> poets who write in her style.
>
> Some years ago Robert Creeley read in Bewley's Cafe in Dublin's Grafton
> Street and the poet who introduced him had never heard of him. This despite
> the fact that the same poet went on to edit and present poetry programmes
> for radio. So Alice being known is a tribute to her in that context.
>
> Often the mainstream likes to claim poets as English if they are an easy
> read as well as easy to teach. Indeed that applies in most poetic cultures.
> In this year of recalling World War One we had poetic groups looking to get
> their poet labeled as a "war poet" which meant admission to events, etc.
> But on that list were many easily read writers with others being ignored
> regardless of their actual war record.
>
> The power of Oliver for me is his grasp of what it means to grow up in
> England after a dreadful war destroyed so much. That of course means first
> the loss of lives as well as massive losses of vital services wlthin
> communities. To see England now go with the UKIP surge is depressing and
> the contempt for democratic structures. If UKIP hold the balance of power
> after May next year we are all on the edge of civil unrest. Any left wing
> party that agrees with UKIP on any issue should ditch that policy at once.
> A lot is at stake that took generations to build after another fascist
> surge led us into WW2. The likes of Douglas Oliver would barely recognise
> the English mood of 2014.
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [log in to unmask]
> To: BRITISH-IRISH-POETS
> Sent: Sat, 13 Dec 2014 7:05
> Subject: Re: Douglas Oliver Continued
>
> The first time I read Oliver was Pearl and my reading of him went on from there.
> Of course I agree about the quality of the early stuff but I would make a strong
> case for the later as well - it was the later stuff that I read more thoroughly
> because I was reviewing it in Terrible Work - what about Salvo for Africa - an
> extraordinary work and one that should have got so much more notice and comment.
> I never enjoyed Penniless Politics much but don't really know why - certainly
> not because of the 'politics' - I think I found it a bit flat and too vague or
> something, I must go back to it.
>
> I don't really know what to say about your contention that Alice had a negative
> writing influence on him. Their work still seemed to be very much their own to
> me. I am a huge fan of Alice Notley's poetry and consider her to be one of the
> very best so maybe that colours my view but could you to give a bit of detail
> about that 'influence' - do you mean subject, style, both, or what? The only
> thing I would say is that I think the general American influence helped to free
> his work up a bit.
>
> Cheers
>
> Tim
>
> On 12 Dec 2014, at 23:34, Sean Carey wrote:
>
> > I would take the view now that "Penniless Politics" was not a total failure
> yet I see it as a project that is a good example of an idea best left as an
> idea. At that stage Douglas was living in America. "Poetry and Narrative In
> Performance" proceeded it and his Paladin masterpiece emerged in 1990. For me
> this is a classic as is "Kind" which takes in his work from 1969 onwards. Wendy
> Mulford published "In the Cave of Suicession" in 1974. This work in its own way
> is built on Oliver heading into an actual cave with a manual typewriter. What
> emerged was a stunning poem I am amazed that is not seen as an epic in a multi
> media sense. Lyrical and surreal and totally buzzing with rhythm. He captures so
> much in this work to a degree rarely seen in poetry. It puts what he achieved in
> "The Harmless Building" on to a new level.
> >
> > My point in a nutshell is that Oliver should have continued to explore rather
> than perhaps listen too much to Alice Notley? His work and Notley's on
> reflection prior to "Penniless Politics" were poles apart. She is a big hitter
> in her own field Couples who write can often feel a shadow if either is more
> acclaimed. It is a common problem all through literary history as are
> relationships within poetic groups or circles literary. Often political parties
> are lonely hearts clubs and journalists never stop being journalists. Oliver was
> a working journalist for a lot of his life.
> >
> > The later works I feel while impressive never reached the heights of his
> output in the Paladin and in "Kind". I see the shadow of Notley in the two final
> books. A harsh judgement but one based on Oliver's own strengths.
> >
> > On a final note I regret Douglas did not value the Paul Buck driven writing
> that was published in Curtains. Given that his own work covered many sexual
> areas I never saw the logic of not recognising the advances made by Paul Buck.
> >
>
>
--
David Joseph Bircumshaw
Website and A Chide's Alphabet
http://www.staplednapkin.org.uk
The Animal Subsides http://www.arrowheadpress.co.uk/books/animal.html
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/david.bircumshaw
Tumblr: http://zantikus.tumblr.com/
twitter: http://twitter.com/bucketshave
blog: http://groggydays.blogspot.com/
Leicester Poetry Society: http://www.poetryleicester.com
--001a11c266d6f155a3050a2583b7
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div>Sean<br><br>The only thing I can say for definit=
e about the next election is that the wonderful Dennis Skinner is standing =
down. In the shape of things, it should be a Labour landslide, but in the r=
eality, with the lacklustre Ed Milliband at the helm, it ain't gonna be=
so. I do fear another coalition, thanks to the effects of UKIP and the opp=
ortunist Scots Nats. The Labour Party sold its soul to the devil when it op=
ened out to Tony Blair, the road back is a long and possibly unattainable o=
ne. I can say, attest even, that I have dealings with my constituency Labou=
r MP on my own and others behalf, and he and his staff have been little sho=
rt of superb. It is at the national level things go wrong.<br><br><br></div=
>Best<br><br></div>Dave<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=
=3D"gmail_quote">On 13 December 2014 at 13:31, Sean Carey <span dir=3D"ltr"=
><<a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" target=3D"_blank">sean.carey1=
@aol.co.uk</a>></span> wrote:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"=
margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">The early de=
ath of Douglas left a vacuum leaving us wonder where he would have gone in =
his work. I like Alice who seems to cross the poetic divides very well. If =
mention her to poets in the Salmon or Gallery Presses in Ireland they indee=
d know about her work. That would not apply to many other poets who write i=
n her style. <br><br>Some years ago Robert Creeley read in Bewley's Caf=
e in Dublin's Grafton Street and the poet who introduced him had never =
heard of him. This despite the fact that the same poet went on to edit and =
present poetry programmes for radio. So Alice being known is a tribute to h=
er in that context.<br><br>Often the mainstream likes to claim poets as Eng=
lish if they are an easy read as well as easy to teach. Indeed that applies=
in most poetic cultures. In this year of recalling World War One we had po=
etic groups looking to get their poet labeled as a "war poet" whi=
ch meant admission to events, etc. But on that list were many easily read w=
riters with others being ignored regardless of their actual war record. <br=
><br>The power of Oliver for me is his grasp of what it means to grow up in=
England after a dreadful war destroyed so much. That of course means first=
the loss of lives as well as massive losses of vital services wlthin commu=
nities. To see England now go with the UKIP surge is depressing and the con=
tempt for democratic structures. If UKIP hold the balance of power after Ma=
y next year we are all on the edge of civil unrest. Any left wing party tha=
t agrees with UKIP on any issue should ditch that policy at once. A lot is =
at stake that took generations to build after another fascist surge led us =
into WW2. The likes of Douglas Oliver would barely recognise the English mo=
od of 2014. <br><br><br><br><br>-----Original Message-----<br>From: <a href=
=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" target=3D"_blank">[log in to unmask]</a><br>To: =
BRITISH-IRISH-POETS <u></u><br>Sent: Sat, 13 Dec 2014 7:05<br>Subject: Re: =
Douglas Oliver Continued<br><br>
<div style=3D"margin:0px;font-family:Tahoma,Verdana,Arial,Sans-Serif;font-s=
ize:12px;color:#000;background-color:#fff">
<pre style=3D"font-size:9pt"><tt>The first time I read Oliver was Pearl and=
my reading of him went on from there.=20
Of course I agree about the quality of the early stuff but I would make a s=
trong=20
case for the later as well - it was the later stuff that I read more thorou=
ghly=20
because I was reviewing it in Terrible Work - what about Salvo for Africa -=
an=20
extraordinary work and one that should have got so much more notice and com=
ment.=20
I never enjoyed Penniless Politics much but don't really know why - cer=
tainly=20
not because of the 'politics' - I think I found it a bit flat and t=
oo vague or=20
something, I must go back to it.
I don't really know what to say about your contention that Alice had a =
negative=20
writing influence on him. Their work still seemed to be very much their own=
to=20
me. I am a huge fan of Alice Notley's poetry and consider her to be one=
of the=20
very best so maybe that colours my view but could you to give a bit of deta=
il=20
about that 'influence' - do you mean subject, style, both, or what=
? The only=20
thing I would say is that I think the general American influence helped to =
free=20
his work up a bit.
Cheers
Tim
On 12 Dec 2014, at 23:34, Sean Carey wrote:
> I would take the view now that "Penniless Politics" was not =
a total failure=20
yet I see it as a project that is a good example of an idea best left as an=
=20
idea. At that stage Douglas was living in America. "Poetry and Narrati=
ve In=20
Performance" proceeded it and his Paladin masterpiece emerged in 1990.=
For me=20
this is a classic as is "Kind" which takes in his work from 1969 =
onwards. Wendy=20
Mulford published "In the Cave of Suicession" in 1974. This work =
in its own way=20
is built on Oliver heading into an actual cave with a manual typewriter. Wh=
at=20
emerged was a stunning poem I am amazed that is not seen as an epic in a mu=
lti=20
media sense. Lyrical and surreal and totally buzzing with rhythm. He captur=
es so=20
much in this work to a degree rarely seen in poetry. It puts what he achiev=
ed in=20
"The Harmless Building" on to a new level.
>=20
> My point in a nutshell is that Oliver should have continued to explore=
rather=20
than perhaps listen too much to Alice Notley? His work and Notley's on=
=20
reflection prior to "Penniless Politics" were poles apart. She is=
a big hitter=20
in her own field Couples who write can often feel a shadow if either is mor=
e=20
acclaimed. It is a common problem all through literary history as are=20
relationships within poetic groups or circles literary. Often political par=
ties=20
are lonely hearts clubs and journalists never stop being journalists. Olive=
r was=20
a working journalist for a lot of his life.
>=20
> The later works I feel while impressive never reached the heights of h=
is=20
output in the Paladin and in "Kind". I see the shadow of Notley i=
n the two final=20
books. A harsh judgement but one based on Oliver's own strengths.
>=20
> On a final note I regret Douglas did not value the Paul Buck driven wr=
iting=20
that was published in Curtains. Given that his own work covered many sexual=
=20
areas I never saw the logic of not recognising the advances made by Paul Bu=
ck.
>=20
</tt></pre>
</div>=20
</blockquote></div><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><div class=3D"gmail_signatu=
re"><div dir=3D"ltr">David Joseph Bircumshaw<br><div><i><span style=3D"font=
-style:italic"></span></i></div>Website and A Chide's Alphabet<br><a hr=
ef=3D"http://www.staplednapkin.org.uk" target=3D"_blank">http://www.stapled=
napkin.org.uk</a> <br>The Animal Subsides <a href=3D"http://www.arrowheadpr=
ess.co.uk/books/animal.html" target=3D"_blank">http://www.arrowheadpress.co=
.uk/books/animal.html</a><br>Facebook: <a href=3D"http://www.facebook.com/d=
avid.bircumshaw" target=3D"_blank">http://www.facebook.com/david.bircumshaw=
</a><br>Tumblr: <a href=3D"http://zantikus.tumblr.com/" target=3D"_blank">h=
ttp://zantikus.tumblr.com/</a><br>twitter: <a href=3D"http://twitter.com/bu=
cketshave" target=3D"_blank">http://twitter.com/bucketshave</a><br>blog: <a=
href=3D"http://groggydays.blogspot.com/" target=3D"_blank">http://groggyda=
ys.blogspot.com/</a><br>Leicester Poetry Society: <a href=3D"http://www.poe=
tryleicester.com" target=3D"_blank">http://www.poetryleicester.com</a><br><=
/div></div>
</div>
--001a11c266d6f155a3050a2583b7--
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2014 10:20:48 -0500
Reply-To: British & Irish poets <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: British & Irish poets <[log in to unmask]>
From: Sean Carey <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: A Celtic Rainbow Coalition With Labour
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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Is possible David but will the English in their current mood accept that to put Ed Miliband in number 10? The demands for cash from London would merely boost UKIP who could finish the conservatives as we knew them. The odd thing is that the SNP and the Welsh and Irish nationalists are well to the right of Miliband and David Cameron. Many of the Welsh and Irish policies on Europe are similar to UKIP's with the S.N.P. liable to ditch their pro E.U. stance. The position of the neo Unionist Democratic Unionist Party could leave them as the power-brokers next May. To support Miliband would be ok for Sinn Fein who will take their seats but harder for their bedfellows in the D.U.P.
So all kinds of rainbows could be seen in Westminister of hues not seen in many a generation. The referendum in Scotland instead of defining British history could end up breaking up the Union. But any nationalism cannot be expected to improve the lives of their poor in any nation state. The notion of UKIP that mass deportations will not be resisted is high risk lunacy. Nor can they expect the Asian communities to have laws imposed on them by UKIP or by a
celtic rainbow backed Labour government.
These are high risks times David. I hope reason will prevail rather than mass hysteria and indeed the retirement of Dennis Skinner is a sad event. His speech on the morning UKIP's Mark Reckless took his seat is one anyone interested in saving us all from populist nationalism should read in detail. These were the words of a man rooted in genuine internationalist socialism not into seeing those of other creeds or races as the main problem facing both Ireland and Britain. Rather than being the solution Mr Farage is now the most serious security risk to Britain seen since the 1930s.
Sent from AOL Mobile Mail
-----Original Message-----
From: David Bircumshaw <[log in to unmask]>
To: BRITISH-IRISH-POETS <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Sun, Dec 14, 2014 04:25 AM
Subject: Re: Douglas Oliver Continued
<div id="AOLMsgPart_2_55c1767d-1194-4286-be85-aae66a58e618">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div>
Sean
The only thing I can say for definite about the next election is that the wonderful Dennis Skinner is standing down. In the shape of things, it should be a Labour landslide, but in the reality, with the lacklustre Ed Milliband at the helm, it ain't gonna be so. I do fear another coalition, thanks to the effects of UKIP and the opportunist Scots Nats. The Labour Party sold its soul to the devil when it opened out to Tony Blair, the road back is a long and possibly unattainable one. I can say, attest even, that I have dealings with my constituency Labour MP on my own and others behalf, and he and his staff have been little short of superb. It is at the national level things go wrong.
Best
</div>Dave
</div>
<div class="aolmail_gmail_extra">
<div class="aolmail_gmail_quote">
On 13 December 2014 at 13:31, Sean Carey
<span dir="ltr"><<a target="_blank" href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>></span> wrote:
<blockquote class="aolmail_gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
The early death of Douglas left a vacuum leaving us wonder where he would have gone in his work. I like Alice who seems to cross the poetic divides very well. If mention her to poets in the Salmon or Gallery Presses in Ireland they indeed know about her work. That would not apply to many other poets who write in her style.
Some years ago Robert Creeley read in Bewley's Cafe in Dublin's Grafton Street and the poet who introduced him had never heard of him. This despite the fact that the same poet went on to edit and present poetry programmes for radio. So Alice being known is a tribute to her in that context.
Often the mainstream likes to claim poets as English if they are an easy read as well as easy to teach. Indeed that applies in most poetic cultures. In this year of recalling World War One we had poetic groups looking to get their poet labeled as a "war poet" which meant admission to events, etc. But on that list were many easily read writers with others being ignored regardless of their actual war record.
The power of Oliver for me is his grasp of what it means to grow up in England after a dreadful war destroyed so much. That of course means first the loss of lives as well as massive losses of vital services wlthin communities. To see England now go with the UKIP surge is depressing and the contempt for democratic structures. If UKIP hold the balance of power after May next year we are all on the edge of civil unrest. Any left wing party that agrees with UKIP on any issue should ditch that policy at once. A lot is at stake that took generations to build after another fascist surge led us into WW2. The likes of Douglas Oliver would barely recognise the English mood of 2014.
-----Original Message-----
From:
<a target="_blank" href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>
To: BRITISH-IRISH-POETS
<u></u>
Sent: Sat, 13 Dec 2014 7:05
Subject: Re: Douglas Oliver Continued
<div style="margin:0px;font-family:Tahoma,Verdana,Arial,Sans-Serif;font-size:12px;color:#000;background-color:#fff">
<pre style="font-size:9pt"><tt>The first time I read Oliver was Pearl and my reading of him went on from there.
Of course I agree about the quality of the early stuff but I would make a strong
case for the later as well - it was the later stuff that I read more thoroughly
because I was reviewing it in Terrible Work - what about Salvo for Africa - an
extraordinary work and one that should have got so much more notice and comment.
I never enjoyed Penniless Politics much but don't really know why - certainly
not because of the 'politics' - I think I found it a bit flat and too vague or
something, I must go back to it.
I don't really know what to say about your contention that Alice had a negative
writing influence on him. Their work still seemed to be very much their own to
me. I am a huge fan of Alice Notley's poetry and consider her to be one of the
very best so maybe that colours my view but could you to give a bit of detail
about that 'influence' - do you mean subject, style, both, or what? The only
thing I would say is that I think the general American influence helped to free
his work up a bit.
Cheers
Tim
On 12 Dec 2014, at 23:34, Sean Carey wrote:
> I would take the view now that "Penniless Politics" was not a total failure
yet I see it as a project that is a good example of an idea best left as an
idea. At that stage Douglas was living in America. "Poetry and Narrative In
Performance" proceeded it and his Paladin masterpiece emerged in 1990. For me
this is a classic as is "Kind" which takes in his work from 1969 onwards. Wendy
Mulford published "In the Cave of Suicession" in 1974. This work in its own way
is built on Oliver heading into an actual cave with a manual typewriter. What
emerged was a stunning poem I am amazed that is not seen as an epic in a multi
media sense. Lyrical and surreal and totally buzzing with rhythm. He captures so
much in this work to a degree rarely seen in poetry. It puts what he achieved in
"The Harmless Building" on to a new level.
>
> My point in a nutshell is that Oliver should have continued to explore rather
than perhaps listen too much to Alice Notley? His work and Notley's on
reflection prior to "Penniless Politics" were poles apart. She is a big hitter
in her own field Couples who write can often feel a shadow if either is more
acclaimed. It is a common problem all through literary history as are
relationships within poetic groups or circles literary. Often political parties
are lonely hearts clubs and journalists never stop being journalists. Oliver was
a working journalist for a lot of his life.
>
> The later works I feel while impressive never reached the heights of his
output in the Paladin and in "Kind". I see the shadow of Notley in the two final
books. A harsh judgement but one based on Oliver's own strengths.
>
> On a final note I regret Douglas did not value the Paul Buck driven writing
that was published in Curtains. Given that his own work covered many sexual
areas I never saw the logic of not recognising the advances made by Paul Buck.
>
</tt></pre>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br clear="all">
--
<div class="aolmail_gmail_signature">
<div dir="ltr">
David Joseph Bircumshaw
<i><span style="font-style:italic"></span></i>
Website and A Chide's Alphabet
<a target="_blank" href="http://www.staplednapkin.org.uk">http://www.staplednapkin.org.uk</a>
The Animal Subsides
<a target="_blank" href="http://www.arrowheadpress.co.uk/books/animal.html">http://www.arrowheadpress.co.uk/books/animal.html</a>
Facebook:
<a target="_blank" href="http://www.facebook.com/david.bircumshaw">http://www.facebook.com/david.bircumshaw</a>
Tumblr:
<a target="_blank" href="http://zantikus.tumblr.com/">http://zantikus.tumblr.com/</a>
twitter:
<a target="_blank" href="http://twitter.com/bucketshave">http://twitter.com/bucketshave</a>
blog:
<a target="_blank" href="http://groggydays.blogspot.com/">http://groggydays.blogspot.com/</a>
Leicester Poetry Society:
<a target="_blank" href="http://www.poetryleicester.com">http://www.poetryleicester.com</a>
</div>
</div>
</div>
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</div>
------=_Part_2504_426116068.1418570448576
Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Is possible David but will the English in their current mood accept that to=
put Ed Miliband in number 10? The demands for cash from London would merel=
y boost UKIP who could finish the conservatives as we knew them. The odd th=
ing is that the SNP and the Welsh and Irish nationalists are well to the ri=
ght of Miliband and David Cameron. Many of the Welsh and Irish policies on =
Europe are similar to UKIP's with the S.N.P. liable to ditch their pro E.U.=
stance. The position of the neo Unionist Democratic Unionist Party could l=
eave them as the power-brokers next May. To support Miliband would be ok fo=
r Sinn Fein who will take their seats but harder for their bedfellows in th=
e D.U.P. <div><br></div><div>So all kinds of rainbows could be seen in=
Westminister of hues not seen in many a generation. The referendum in Scot=
land instead of defining British history could end up breaking up the Union=
. But any nationalism cannot be expected to improve the lives of their poor=
in any nation state. The notion of UKIP that mass deportations will not be=
resisted is high risk lunacy. Nor can they expect the Asian communities to=
have laws imposed on them by UKIP or by a </div><div>celtic rainbow b=
acked Labour government. </div><div><br></div><div>These are high risk=
s times David. I hope reason will prevail rather than mass hysteria and ind=
eed the retirement of Dennis Skinner is a sad event. His speech on the morn=
ing UKIP's Mark Reckless took his seat is one anyone interested in saving u=
s all from populist nationalism should read in detail. These were the words=
of a man rooted in genuine internationalist socialism not into seeing thos=
e of other creeds or races as the main problem facing both Ireland and Brit=
ain. Rather than being the solution Mr Farage is now the most serious secur=
ity risk to Britain seen since the 1930s.</div><div>Sent from AOL Mobile Ma=
il<br><br><br>-----Original Message-----<br>From: David Bircumshaw <chee=
[log in to unmask]><br>To: BRITISH-IRISH-POETS <BRITISH-IRISH-POET=
[log in to unmask]><br>Sent: Sun, Dec 14, 2014 04:25 AM<br>Subject: Re: Do=
uglas Oliver Continued<br><br><br>
<div id=3D"AOLMsgPart_2_55c1767d-1194-4286-be85-aae66a58e618">
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div>
<div>
Sean
<br>
<br>The only thing I can say for definite about the next election is th=
at the wonderful Dennis Skinner is standing down. In the shape of things, i=
t should be a Labour landslide, but in the reality, with the lacklustre Ed =
Milliband at the helm, it ain't gonna be so. I do fear another coalition, t=
hanks to the effects of UKIP and the opportunist Scots Nats. The Labour Par=
ty sold its soul to the devil when it opened out to Tony Blair, the road ba=
ck is a long and possibly unattainable one. I can say, attest even, that I =
have dealings with my constituency Labour MP on my own and others behalf, a=
nd he and his staff have been little short of superb. It is at the national=
level things go wrong.
<br>
<br>
<br>
</div>Best
<br>
<br>
</div>Dave
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"aolmail_gmail_extra">
<br>
<div class=3D"aolmail_gmail_quote">
On 13 December 2014 at 13:31, Sean Carey=20
<span dir=3D"ltr"><<a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:sean.carey1@ao=
l.co.uk">[log in to unmask]</a>></span> wrote:
<blockquote class=3D"aolmail_gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;bor=
der-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
The early death of Douglas left a vacuum leaving us wonder where he would h=
ave gone in his work. I like Alice who seems to cross the poetic divides ve=
ry well. If mention her to poets in the Salmon or Gallery Presses in Irelan=
d they indeed know about her work. That would not apply to many other poets=
who write in her style.=20
<br>
<br>Some years ago Robert Creeley read in Bewley's Cafe in Dublin's Gra=
fton Street and the poet who introduced him had never heard of him. This de=
spite the fact that the same poet went on to edit and present poetry progra=
mmes for radio. So Alice being known is a tribute to her in that context.
<br>
<br>Often the mainstream likes to claim poets as English if they are an=
easy read as well as easy to teach. Indeed that applies in most poetic cul=
tures. In this year of recalling World War One we had poetic groups looking=
to get their poet labeled as a "war poet" which meant admission to events,=
etc. But on that list were many easily read writers with others being igno=
red regardless of their actual war record.=20
<br>
<br>The power of Oliver for me is his grasp of what it means to grow up=
in England after a dreadful war destroyed so much. That of course means fi=
rst the loss of lives as well as massive losses of vital services wlthin co=
mmunities. To see England now go with the UKIP surge is depressing and the =
contempt for democratic structures. If UKIP hold the balance of power after=
May next year we are all on the edge of civil unrest. Any left wing party =
that agrees with UKIP on any issue should ditch that policy at once. A lot =
is at stake that took generations to build after another fascist surge led =
us into WW2. The likes of Douglas Oliver would barely recognise the English=
mood of 2014.=20
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>-----Original Message-----
<br>From:=20
<a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]<=
/a>
<br>To: BRITISH-IRISH-POETS=20
<u></u>
<br>Sent: Sat, 13 Dec 2014 7:05
<br>Subject: Re: Douglas Oliver Continued
<br>
<br>=20
<div style=3D"margin:0px;font-family:Tahoma,Verdana,Arial,Sans-Serif;fo=
nt-size:12px;color:#000;background-color:#fff">=20
<pre style=3D"font-size:9pt"><tt>The first time I read Oliver was Pear=
l and my reading of him went on from there.=20
Of course I agree about the quality of the early stuff but I would make a s=
trong=20
case for the later as well - it was the later stuff that I read more thorou=
ghly=20
because I was reviewing it in Terrible Work - what about Salvo for Africa -=
an=20
extraordinary work and one that should have got so much more notice and com=
ment.=20
I never enjoyed Penniless Politics much but don't really know why - certain=
ly=20
not because of the 'politics' - I think I found it a bit flat and too vague=
or=20
something, I must go back to it.
I don't really know what to say about your contention that Alice had a nega=
tive=20
writing influence on him. Their work still seemed to be very much their own=
to=20
me. I am a huge fan of Alice Notley's poetry and consider her to be one of =
the=20
very best so maybe that colours my view but could you to give a bit of deta=
il=20
about that 'influence' - do you mean subject, style, both, or what? The on=
ly=20
thing I would say is that I think the general American influence helped to =
free=20
his work up a bit.
Cheers
Tim
On 12 Dec 2014, at 23:34, Sean Carey wrote:
> I would take the view now that "Penniless Politics" was not a total fa=
ilure=20
yet I see it as a project that is a good example of an idea best left as an=
=20
idea. At that stage Douglas was living in America. "Poetry and Narrative In=
=20
Performance" proceeded it and his Paladin masterpiece emerged in 1990. For =
me=20
this is a classic as is "Kind" which takes in his work from 1969 onwards. W=
endy=20
Mulford published "In the Cave of Suicession" in 1974. This work in its own=
way=20
is built on Oliver heading into an actual cave with a manual typewriter. Wh=
at=20
emerged was a stunning poem I am amazed that is not seen as an epic in a mu=
lti=20
media sense. Lyrical and surreal and totally buzzing with rhythm. He captur=
es so=20
much in this work to a degree rarely seen in poetry. It puts what he achiev=
ed in=20
"The Harmless Building" on to a new level.
>=20
> My point in a nutshell is that Oliver should have continued to explore=
rather=20
than perhaps listen too much to Alice Notley? His work and Notley's on=20
reflection prior to "Penniless Politics" were poles apart. She is a big hit=
ter=20
in her own field Couples who write can often feel a shadow if either is mor=
e=20
acclaimed. It is a common problem all through literary history as are=20
relationships within poetic groups or circles literary. Often political par=
ties=20
are lonely hearts clubs and journalists never stop being journalists. Olive=
r was=20
a working journalist for a lot of his life.
>=20
> The later works I feel while impressive never reached the heights of h=
is=20
output in the Paladin and in "Kind". I see the shadow of Notley in the two =
final=20
books. A harsh judgement but one based on Oliver's own strengths.
>=20
> On a final note I regret Douglas did not value the Paul Buck driven wr=
iting=20
that was published in Curtains. Given that his own work covered many sexual=
=20
areas I never saw the logic of not recognising the advances made by Paul Bu=
ck.
>=20
</tt></pre>=20
</div>=20
</blockquote>
</div>
<br clear=3D"all">
<br>--=20
<br>
<div class=3D"aolmail_gmail_signature">
<div dir=3D"ltr">
David Joseph Bircumshaw
<br>
<div>
<i><span style=3D"font-style:italic"></span></i>
</div>Website and A Chide's Alphabet
<br>
<a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://www.staplednapkin.org.uk">http://ww=
w.staplednapkin.org.uk</a>=20
<br>The Animal Subsides=20
<a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://www.arrowheadpress.co.uk/books/anim=
al.html">http://www.arrowheadpress.co.uk/books/animal.html</a>
<br>Facebook:=20
<a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://www.facebook.com/david.bircumshaw">=
http://www.facebook.com/david.bircumshaw</a>
<br>Tumblr:=20
<a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://zantikus.tumblr.com/">http://zantik=
us.tumblr.com/</a>
<br>twitter:=20
<a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://twitter.com/bucketshave">http://twi=
tter.com/bucketshave</a>
<br>blog:=20
<a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://groggydays.blogspot.com/">http://gr=
oggydays.blogspot.com/</a>
<br>Leicester Poetry Society:=20
<a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://www.poetryleicester.com">http://www=
.poetryleicester.com</a>
<br>
</div>
</div>=20
</div>=20
</div>
</div>
------=_Part_2504_426116068.1418570448576--
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2014 00:59:58 +0000
Reply-To: British & Irish poets <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: British & Irish poets <[log in to unmask]>
From: David Bircumshaw <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: A Celtic Rainbow Coalition With Labour
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d0443067c5ab0f0050a36c538
Message-ID: <[log in to unmask]>
--f46d0443067c5ab0f0050a36c538
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Hi Sean
perhaps I was too elliptical and even curt: what I fear is a right-wing
coalition after the next election, with Cameron and Osborne at its heart,
and Farage as comic turn. I know some SNP people, even possibly including
Alex himself, think they maybe able to force a coalition with Labour, but I
really can't see that happening. What I fear, I emphasise that verb, is a
devil's pact between UKIP and the Tories, with the blessings of the
puppetmasters in Washington. After all, the reality of British political
life is our slow, unpleasant and inevitable Americanisation. Unum is
lusting after the NHS etc.
best
Dave
On 14 December 2014 at 15:20, Sean Carey <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> Is possible David but will the English in their current mood accept that
> to put Ed Miliband in number 10? The demands for cash from London would
> merely boost UKIP who could finish the conservatives as we knew them. The
> odd thing is that the SNP and the Welsh and Irish nationalists are well to
> the right of Miliband and David Cameron. Many of the Welsh and Irish
> policies on Europe are similar to UKIP's with the S.N.P. liable to ditch
> their pro E.U. stance. The position of the neo Unionist Democratic Unionist
> Party could leave them as the power-brokers next May. To support Miliband
> would be ok for Sinn Fein who will take their seats but harder for their
> bedfellows in the D.U.P.
>
> So all kinds of rainbows could be seen in Westminister of hues not seen in
> many a generation. The referendum in Scotland instead of defining British
> history could end up breaking up the Union. But any nationalism cannot be
> expected to improve the lives of their poor in any nation state. The notion
> of UKIP that mass deportations will not be resisted is high risk lunacy.
> Nor can they expect the Asian communities to have laws imposed on them by
> UKIP or by a
> celtic rainbow backed Labour government.
>
> These are high risks times David. I hope reason will prevail rather than
> mass hysteria and indeed the retirement of Dennis Skinner is a sad event.
> His speech on the morning UKIP's Mark Reckless took his seat is one anyone
> interested in saving us all from populist nationalism should read in
> detail. These were the words of a man rooted in genuine internationalist
> socialism not into seeing those of other creeds or races as the main
> problem facing both Ireland and Britain. Rather than being the solution Mr
> Farage is now the most serious security risk to Britain seen since the
> 1930s.
> Sent from AOL Mobile Mail
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: David Bircumshaw <[log in to unmask]>
> To: BRITISH-IRISH-POETS <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Sun, Dec 14, 2014 04:25 AM
> Subject: Re: Douglas Oliver Continued
>
>
> Sean
>
> The only thing I can say for definite about the next election is that the
> wonderful Dennis Skinner is standing down. In the shape of things, it
> should be a Labour landslide, but in the reality, with the lacklustre Ed
> Milliband at the helm, it ain't gonna be so. I do fear another coalition,
> thanks to the effects of UKIP and the opportunist Scots Nats. The Labour
> Party sold its soul to the devil when it opened out to Tony Blair, the road
> back is a long and possibly unattainable one. I can say, attest even, that
> I have dealings with my constituency Labour MP on my own and others behalf,
> and he and his staff have been little short of superb. It is at the
> national level things go wrong.
>
>
> Best
>
> Dave
>
> On 13 December 2014 at 13:31, Sean Carey <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> The early death of Douglas left a vacuum leaving us wonder where he would
> have gone in his work. I like Alice who seems to cross the poetic divides
> very well. If mention her to poets in the Salmon or Gallery Presses in
> Ireland they indeed know about her work. That would not apply to many other
> poets who write in her style.
>
> Some years ago Robert Creeley read in Bewley's Cafe in Dublin's Grafton
> Street and the poet who introduced him had never heard of him. This despite
> the fact that the same poet went on to edit and present poetry programmes
> for radio. So Alice being known is a tribute to her in that context.
>
> Often the mainstream likes to claim poets as English if they are an easy
> read as well as easy to teach. Indeed that applies in most poetic cultures.
> In this year of recalling World War One we had poetic groups looking to get
> their poet labeled as a "war poet" which meant admission to events, etc.
> But on that list were many easily read writers with others being ignored
> regardless of their actual war record.
>
> The power of Oliver for me is his grasp of what it means to grow up in
> England after a dreadful war destroyed so much. That of course means first
> the loss of lives as well as massive losses of vital services wlthin
> communities. To see England now go with the UKIP surge is depressing and
> the contempt for democratic structures. If UKIP hold the balance of power
> after May next year we are all on the edge of civil unrest. Any left wing
> party that agrees with UKIP on any issue should ditch that policy at once.
> A lot is at stake that took generations to build after another fascist
> surge led us into WW2. The likes of Douglas Oliver would barely recognise
> the English mood of 2014.
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [log in to unmask]
> To: BRITISH-IRISH-POETS
> Sent: Sat, 13 Dec 2014 7:05
> Subject: Re: Douglas Oliver Continued
>
> The first time I read Oliver was Pearl and my reading of him went on from there.
> Of course I agree about the quality of the early stuff but I would make a strong
> case for the later as well - it was the later stuff that I read more thoroughly
> because I was reviewing it in Terrible Work - what about Salvo for Africa - an
> extraordinary work and one that should have got so much more notice and comment.
> I never enjoyed Penniless Politics much but don't really know why - certainly
> not because of the 'politics' - I think I found it a bit flat and too vague or
> something, I must go back to it.
>
> I don't really know what to say about your contention that Alice had a negative
> writing influence on him. Their work still seemed to be very much their own to
> me. I am a huge fan of Alice Notley's poetry and consider her to be one of the
> very best so maybe that colours my view but could you to give a bit of detail
> about that 'influence' - do you mean subject, style, both, or what? The only
> thing I would say is that I think the general American influence helped to free
> his work up a bit.
>
> Cheers
>
> Tim
>
> On 12 Dec 2014, at 23:34, Sean Carey wrote:
>
> > I would take the view now that "Penniless Politics" was not a total failure
> yet I see it as a project that is a good example of an idea best left as an
> idea. At that stage Douglas was living in America. "Poetry and Narrative In
> Performance" proceeded it and his Paladin masterpiece emerged in 1990. For me
> this is a classic as is "Kind" which takes in his work from 1969 onwards. Wendy
> Mulford published "In the Cave of Suicession" in 1974. This work in its own way
> is built on Oliver heading into an actual cave with a manual typewriter. What
> emerged was a stunning poem I am amazed that is not seen as an epic in a multi
> media sense. Lyrical and surreal and totally buzzing with rhythm. He captures so
> much in this work to a degree rarely seen in poetry. It puts what he achieved in
> "The Harmless Building" on to a new level.
> >
> > My point in a nutshell is that Oliver should have continued to explore rather
> than perhaps listen too much to Alice Notley? His work and Notley's on
> reflection prior to "Penniless Politics" were poles apart. She is a big hitter
> in her own field Couples who write can often feel a shadow if either is more
> acclaimed. It is a common problem all through literary history as are
> relationships within poetic groups or circles literary. Often political parties
> are lonely hearts clubs and journalists never stop being journalists. Oliver was
> a working journalist for a lot of his life.
> >
> > The later works I feel while impressive never reached the heights of his
> output in the Paladin and in "Kind". I see the shadow of Notley in the two final
> books. A harsh judgement but one based on Oliver's own strengths.
> >
> > On a final note I regret Douglas did not value the Paul Buck driven writing
> that was published in Curtains. Given that his own work covered many sexual
> areas I never saw the logic of not recognising the advances made by Paul Buck.
> >
>
>
>
> --
> David Joseph Bircumshaw
> Website and A Chide's Alphabet
> http://www.staplednapkin.org.uk
> The Animal Subsides http://www.arrowheadpress.co.uk/books/animal.html
> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/david.bircumshaw
> Tumblr: http://zantikus.tumblr.com/
> twitter: http://twitter.com/bucketshave
> blog: http://groggydays.blogspot.com/
> Leicester Poetry Society: http://www.poetryleicester.com
>
--
David Joseph Bircumshaw
Website and A Chide's Alphabet
http://www.staplednapkin.org.uk
The Animal Subsides http://www.arrowheadpress.co.uk/books/animal.html
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/david.bircumshaw
Tumblr: http://zantikus.tumblr.com/
twitter: http://twitter.com/bucketshave
blog: http://groggydays.blogspot.com/
Leicester Poetry Society: http://www.poetryleicester.com
--f46d0443067c5ab0f0050a36c538
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div><div>Hi Sean<br><br></div>perhaps I was too elli=
ptical and even curt: what I fear is a right-wing coalition after the next =
election, with Cameron and Osborne at its heart, and Farage as comic turn. =
I know some SNP people, even possibly including Alex himself, think they ma=
ybe able to force a coalition with Labour, but I really can't see that =
happening. What I fear, I emphasise that verb, is a devil's pact betwee=
n UKIP and the Tories, with the blessings of the puppetmasters in Washingto=
n. After all, the reality of British political life is our slow, unpleasant=
and inevitable Americanisation. Unum is lusting after the NHS etc.<br><br>=
</div>best<br><br></div>Dave<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div c=
lass=3D"gmail_quote">On 14 December 2014 at 15:20, Sean Carey <span dir=3D"=
ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" target=3D"_blank">sean.ca=
[log in to unmask]</a>></span> wrote:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Is possi=
ble David but will the English in their current mood accept that to put Ed =
Miliband in number 10? The demands for cash from London would merely boost =
UKIP who could finish the conservatives as we knew them. The odd thing is t=
hat the SNP and the Welsh and Irish nationalists are well to the right of M=
iliband and David Cameron. Many of the Welsh and Irish policies on Europe a=
re similar to UKIP's with the S.N.P. liable to ditch their pro E.U. sta=
nce. The position of the neo Unionist Democratic Unionist Party could leave=
them as the power-brokers next May. To support Miliband would be ok for Si=
nn Fein who will take their seats but harder for their bedfellows in the D.=
U.P.=C2=A0<div><br></div><div>So all kinds of rainbows could be seen in Wes=
tminister of hues not seen in many a generation. The referendum in Scotland=
instead of defining British history could end up breaking up the Union. Bu=
t any nationalism cannot be expected to improve the lives of their poor in =
any nation state. The notion of UKIP that mass deportations will not be res=
isted is high risk lunacy. Nor can they expect the Asian communities to hav=
e laws imposed on them by UKIP or by a=C2=A0</div><div>celtic rainbow backe=
d Labour government.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>These are high risks ti=
mes David. I hope reason will prevail rather than mass hysteria and indeed =
the retirement of Dennis Skinner is a sad event. His speech on the morning =
UKIP's Mark Reckless took his seat is one anyone interested in saving u=
s all from populist nationalism should read in detail. These were the words=
of a man rooted in genuine internationalist socialism not into seeing thos=
e of other creeds or races as the main problem facing both Ireland and Brit=
ain. Rather than being the solution Mr Farage is now the most serious secur=
ity risk to Britain seen since the 1930s.</div><div>Sent from AOL Mobile Ma=
il<br><br><br>-----Original Message-----<br>From: David Bircumshaw <<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" target=3D"_blank">cheepstuff@GOOGL=
EMAIL.COM</a>><br>To: BRITISH-IRISH-POETS <<a href=3D"mailto:BRITISH-=
[log in to unmask]" target=3D"_blank">[log in to unmask]
AC.UK</a>><br>Sent: Sun, Dec 14, 2014 04:25 AM<br>Subject: Re: Douglas O=
liver Continued<br><br><br>
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div>
<div>
Sean
<br>
<br>The only thing I can say for definite about the next election is th=
at the wonderful Dennis Skinner is standing down. In the shape of things, i=
t should be a Labour landslide, but in the reality, with the lacklustre Ed =
Milliband at the helm, it ain't gonna be so. I do fear another coalitio=
n, thanks to the effects of UKIP and the opportunist Scots Nats. The Labour=
Party sold its soul to the devil when it opened out to Tony Blair, the roa=
d back is a long and possibly unattainable one. I can say, attest even, tha=
t I have dealings with my constituency Labour MP on my own and others behal=
f, and he and his staff have been little short of superb. It is at the nati=
onal level things go wrong.
<br>
<br>
<br>
</div>Best
<br>
<br>
</div>Dave
<br>
</div>
<div>
<br>
<div>
On 13 December 2014 at 13:31, Sean Carey=20
<span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" target=3D=
"_blank">[log in to unmask]</a>></span> wrote:
<blockquote style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;paddin=
g-left:1ex">
The early death of Douglas left a vacuum leaving us wonder where he would h=
ave gone in his work. I like Alice who seems to cross the poetic divides ve=
ry well. If mention her to poets in the Salmon or Gallery Presses in Irelan=
d they indeed know about her work. That would not apply to many other poets=
who write in her style.=20
<br>
<br>Some years ago Robert Creeley read in Bewley's Cafe in Dublin&#=
39;s Grafton Street and the poet who introduced him had never heard of him.=
This despite the fact that the same poet went on to edit and present poetr=
y programmes for radio. So Alice being known is a tribute to her in that co=
ntext.
<br>
<br>Often the mainstream likes to claim poets as English if they are an=
easy read as well as easy to teach. Indeed that applies in most poetic cul=
tures. In this year of recalling World War One we had poetic groups looking=
to get their poet labeled as a "war poet" which meant admission =
to events, etc. But on that list were many easily read writers with others =
being ignored regardless of their actual war record.=20
<br>
<br>The power of Oliver for me is his grasp of what it means to grow up=
in England after a dreadful war destroyed so much. That of course means fi=
rst the loss of lives as well as massive losses of vital services wlthin co=
mmunities. To see England now go with the UKIP surge is depressing and the =
contempt for democratic structures. If UKIP hold the balance of power after=
May next year we are all on the edge of civil unrest. Any left wing party =
that agrees with UKIP on any issue should ditch that policy at once. A lot =
is at stake that took generations to build after another fascist surge led =
us into WW2. The likes of Douglas Oliver would barely recognise the English=
mood of 2014.=20
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>-----Original Message-----
<br>From:=20
<a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" target=3D"_blank">[log in to unmask]<=
/a>
<br>To: BRITISH-IRISH-POETS=20
<u></u>
<br>Sent: Sat, 13 Dec 2014 7:05
<br>Subject: Re: Douglas Oliver Continued
<br>
<br>=20
<div style=3D"margin:0px;font-family:Tahoma,Verdana,Arial,Sans-Serif;fo=
nt-size:12px;color:#000;background-color:#fff">=20
<pre style=3D"font-size:9pt"><tt>The first time I read Oliver was Pear=
l and my reading of him went on from there.=20
Of course I agree about the quality of the early stuff but I would make a s=
trong=20
case for the later as well - it was the later stuff that I read more thorou=
ghly=20
because I was reviewing it in Terrible Work - what about Salvo for Africa -=
an=20
extraordinary work and one that should have got so much more notice and com=
ment.=20
I never enjoyed Penniless Politics much but don't really know why - cer=
tainly=20
not because of the 'politics' - I think I found it a bit flat and t=
oo vague or=20
something, I must go back to it.
I don't really know what to say about your contention that Alice had a =
negative=20
writing influence on him. Their work still seemed to be very much their own=
to=20
me. I am a huge fan of Alice Notley's poetry and consider her to be one=
of the=20
very best so maybe that colours my view but could you to give a bit of deta=
il=20
about that 'influence' - do you mean subject, style, both, or what=
? The only=20
thing I would say is that I think the general American influence helped to =
free=20
his work up a bit.
Cheers
Tim
On 12 Dec 2014, at 23:34, Sean Carey wrote:
> I would take the view now that "Penniless Politics" was not =
a total failure=20
yet I see it as a project that is a good example of an idea best left as an=
=20
idea. At that stage Douglas was living in America. "Poetry and Narrati=
ve In=20
Performance" proceeded it and his Paladin masterpiece emerged in 1990.=
For me=20
this is a classic as is "Kind" which takes in his work from 1969 =
onwards. Wendy=20
Mulford published "In the Cave of Suicession" in 1974. This work =
in its own way=20
is built on Oliver heading into an actual cave with a manual typewriter. Wh=
at=20
emerged was a stunning poem I am amazed that is not seen as an epic in a mu=
lti=20
media sense. Lyrical and surreal and totally buzzing with rhythm. He captur=
es so=20
much in this work to a degree rarely seen in poetry. It puts what he achiev=
ed in=20
"The Harmless Building" on to a new level.
>=20
> My point in a nutshell is that Oliver should have continued to explore=
rather=20
than perhaps listen too much to Alice Notley? His work and Notley's on=
=20
reflection prior to "Penniless Politics" were poles apart. She is=
a big hitter=20
in her own field Couples who write can often feel a shadow if either is mor=
e=20
acclaimed. It is a common problem all through literary history as are=20
relationships within poetic groups or circles literary. Often political par=
ties=20
are lonely hearts clubs and journalists never stop being journalists. Olive=
r was=20
a working journalist for a lot of his life.
>=20
> The later works I feel while impressive never reached the heights of h=
is=20
output in the Paladin and in "Kind". I see the shadow of Notley i=
n the two final=20
books. A harsh judgement but one based on Oliver's own strengths.
>=20
> On a final note I regret Douglas did not value the Paul Buck driven wr=
iting=20
that was published in Curtains. Given that his own work covered many sexual=
=20
areas I never saw the logic of not recognising the advances made by Paul Bu=
ck.
>=20
</tt></pre><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888">=20
</font></span></div><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888">=20
</font></span></blockquote><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888=
">
</font></span></div><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888">
<br clear=3D"all">
<br>--=20
<br>
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
David Joseph Bircumshaw
<br>
<div>
<i><span style=3D"font-style:italic"></span></i>
</div>Website and A Chide's Alphabet
<br>
<a href=3D"http://www.staplednapkin.org.uk" target=3D"_blank">http://ww=
w.staplednapkin.org.uk</a>=20
<br>The Animal Subsides=20
<a href=3D"http://www.arrowheadpress.co.uk/books/animal.html" target=3D=
"_blank">http://www.arrowheadpress.co.uk/books/animal.html</a>
<br>Facebook:=20
<a href=3D"http://www.facebook.com/david.bircumshaw" target=3D"_blank">=
http://www.facebook.com/david.bircumshaw</a>
<br>Tumblr:=20
<a href=3D"http://zantikus.tumblr.com/" target=3D"_blank">http://zantik=
us.tumblr.com/</a>
<br>twitter:=20
<a href=3D"http://twitter.com/bucketshave" target=3D"_blank">http://twi=
tter.com/bucketshave</a>
<br>blog:=20
<a href=3D"http://groggydays.blogspot.com/" target=3D"_blank">http://gr=
oggydays.blogspot.com/</a>
<br>Leicester Poetry Society:=20
<a href=3D"http://www.poetryleicester.com" target=3D"_blank">http://www=
.poetryleicester.com</a>
<br>
</div>
</div>=20
</font></span></div>=20
</div>
</div></blockquote></div><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><div class=3D"gmail_s=
ignature"><div dir=3D"ltr">David Joseph Bircumshaw<br><div><i><span style=
=3D"font-style:italic"></span></i></div>Website and A Chide's Alphabet<=
br><a href=3D"http://www.staplednapkin.org.uk" target=3D"_blank">http://www=
.staplednapkin.org.uk</a> <br>The Animal Subsides <a href=3D"http://www.arr=
owheadpress.co.uk/books/animal.html" target=3D"_blank">http://www.arrowhead=
press.co.uk/books/animal.html</a><br>Facebook: <a href=3D"http://www.facebo=
ok.com/david.bircumshaw" target=3D"_blank">http://www.facebook.com/david.bi=
rcumshaw</a><br>Tumblr: <a href=3D"http://zantikus.tumblr.com/" target=3D"_=
blank">http://zantikus.tumblr.com/</a><br>twitter: <a href=3D"http://twitte=
r.com/bucketshave" target=3D"_blank">http://twitter.com/bucketshave</a><br>=
blog: <a href=3D"http://groggydays.blogspot.com/" target=3D"_blank">http://=
groggydays.blogspot.com/</a><br>Leicester Poetry Society: <a href=3D"http:/=
/www.poetryleicester.com" target=3D"_blank">http://www.poetryleicester.com<=
/a><br></div></div>
</div>
--f46d0443067c5ab0f0050a36c538--
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2014 05:51:06 -0500
Reply-To: British & Irish poets <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: British & Irish poets <[log in to unmask]>
From: Sean Carey <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Shape of May 2015 Outcome
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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For a UKIP move to back a Tory coalition would either mean an actual government with UKIP ministers or the option of backing the Tories in the Commons. To do either would undermine any PM from defining an actual programme for government. Mass deportations and moves against the Asian community's culture would meet serious opposition. To impose the UKIP notion of Britishness on non-British cultures is not possible. To leave the E.U. would mean Britain would be seen as the pariah of Europe if E.U. nationals are deported as UKIP demand. UKIP have never explained which nation ality they will exclude.
The success of UKIP is based on simple solutions to complex problems. Farage himself looks like a character who walked off a Carry On film set. He drinks wine in private but beer in public. Harold Wilson loved cigars but smoked a pipe in public. Farage blames the E.U. and people from outside the U.K. for all of Britain's problems. Cameron instead of confronting UKIP has yielded to their demands. Miliband is doing the same in taking UKIP policies on board.
The only main political party to go against the UKIP drift are the Lib Dems to their credit. But their stance will probably lead to a wipe-out next May. The left beyond Labour have not applied the anti BNP/EDL protests to UKIP. One wonders why a double standard applies to Farage compared to Nick Griffin? The policies of UKIP are not too removed from the BNP who had few toffs in their ranks or folk who dwell on country estates.
Interesting times but scary!
<div>
<div>
Sent from AOL Mobile Mail
-----Original Message-----
From: David Bircumshaw <[log in to unmask]>
To: BRITISH-IRISH-POETS <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Mon, Dec 15, 2014 01:01 AM
Subject: Re: A Celtic Rainbow Coalition With Labour
<div id="AOLMsgPart_2_d707215c-3cd3-4263-bc8c-72ff1ae80497">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div>
<div>
Hi Sean
perhaps I was too elliptical and even curt: what I fear is a right-wing coalition after the next election, with Cameron and Osborne at its heart, and Farage as comic turn. I know some SNP people, even possibly including Alex himself, think they maybe able to force a coalition with Labour, but I really can't see that happening. What I fear, I emphasise that verb, is a devil's pact between UKIP and the Tories, with the blessings of the puppetmasters in Washington. After all, the reality of British political life is our slow, unpleasant and inevitable Americanisation. Unum is lusting after the NHS etc.
</div>best
</div>Dave
</div>
<div class="aolmail_gmail_extra">
<div class="aolmail_gmail_quote">
On 14 December 2014 at 15:20, Sean Carey
<span dir="ltr"><<a target="_blank" href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>></span> wrote:
<blockquote class="aolmail_gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Is possible David but will the English in their current mood accept that to put Ed Miliband in number 10? The demands for cash from London would merely boost UKIP who could finish the conservatives as we knew them. The odd thing is that the SNP and the Welsh and Irish nationalists are well to the right of Miliband and David Cameron. Many of the Welsh and Irish policies on Europe are similar to UKIP's with the S.N.P. liable to ditch their pro E.U. stance. The position of the neo Unionist Democratic Unionist Party could leave them as the power-brokers next May. To support Miliband would be ok for Sinn Fein who will take their seats but harder for their bedfellows in the D.U.P.
So all kinds of rainbows could be seen in Westminister of hues not seen in many a generation. The referendum in Scotland instead of defining British history could end up breaking up the Union. But any nationalism cannot be expected to improve the lives of their poor in any nation state. The notion of UKIP that mass deportations will not be resisted is high risk lunacy. Nor can they expect the Asian communities to have laws imposed on them by UKIP or by a
celtic rainbow backed Labour government.
These are high risks times David. I hope reason will prevail rather than mass hysteria and indeed the retirement of Dennis Skinner is a sad event. His speech on the morning UKIP's Mark Reckless took his seat is one anyone interested in saving us all from populist nationalism should read in detail. These were the words of a man rooted in genuine internationalist socialism not into seeing those of other creeds or races as the main problem facing both Ireland and Britain. Rather than being the solution Mr Farage is now the most serious security risk to Britain seen since the 1930s.
Sent from AOL Mobile Mail
-----Original Message-----
From: David Bircumshaw <
<a target="_blank" href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>>
To: BRITISH-IRISH-POETS <
<a target="_blank" href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>>
Sent: Sun, Dec 14, 2014 04:25 AM
Subject: Re: Douglas Oliver Continued
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div>
Sean
The only thing I can say for definite about the next election is that the wonderful Dennis Skinner is standing down. In the shape of things, it should be a Labour landslide, but in the reality, with the lacklustre Ed Milliband at the helm, it ain't gonna be so. I do fear another coalition, thanks to the effects of UKIP and the opportunist Scots Nats. The Labour Party sold its soul to the devil when it opened out to Tony Blair, the road back is a long and possibly unattainable one. I can say, attest even, that I have dealings with my constituency Labour MP on my own and others behalf, and he and his staff have been little short of superb. It is at the national level things go wrong.
Best
</div>Dave
</div>
<div>
On 13 December 2014 at 13:31, Sean Carey
<span dir="ltr"><<a target="_blank" href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>></span> wrote:
<blockquote style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
The early death of Douglas left a vacuum leaving us wonder where he would have gone in his work. I like Alice who seems to cross the poetic divides very well. If mention her to poets in the Salmon or Gallery Presses in Ireland they indeed know about her work. That would not apply to many other poets who write in her style.
Some years ago Robert Creeley read in Bewley's Cafe in Dublin's Grafton Street and the poet who introduced him had never heard of him. This despite the fact that the same poet went on to edit and present poetry programmes for radio. So Alice being known is a tribute to her in that context.
Often the mainstream likes to claim poets as English if they are an easy read as well as easy to teach. Indeed that applies in most poetic cultures. In this year of recalling World War One we had poetic groups looking to get their poet labeled as a "war poet" which meant admission to events, etc. But on that list were many easily read writers with others being ignored regardless of their actual war record.
The power of Oliver for me is his grasp of what it means to grow up in England after a dreadful war destroyed so much. That of course means first the loss of lives as well as massive losses of vital services wlthin communities. To see England now go with the UKIP surge is depressing and the contempt for democratic structures. If UKIP hold the balance of power after May next year we are all on the edge of civil unrest. Any left wing party that agrees with UKIP on any issue should ditch that policy at once. A lot is at stake that took generations to build after another fascist surge led us into WW2. The likes of Douglas Oliver would barely recognise the English mood of 2014.
-----Original Message-----
From:
<a target="_blank" href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>
To: BRITISH-IRISH-POETS
<u></u>
Sent: Sat, 13 Dec 2014 7:05
Subject: Re: Douglas Oliver Continued
<div style="margin:0px;font-family:Tahoma,Verdana,Arial,Sans-Serif;font-size:12px;color:#000;background-color:#fff">
<pre style="font-size:9pt"><tt>The first time I read Oliver was Pearl and my reading of him went on from there.
Of course I agree about the quality of the early stuff but I would make a strong
case for the later as well - it was the later stuff that I read more thoroughly
because I was reviewing it in Terrible Work - what about Salvo for Africa - an
extraordinary work and one that should have got so much more notice and comment.
I never enjoyed Penniless Politics much but don't really know why - certainly
not because of the 'politics' - I think I found it a bit flat and too vague or
something, I must go back to it.
I don't really know what to say about your contention that Alice had a negative
writing influence on him. Their work still seemed to be very much their own to
me. I am a huge fan of Alice Notley's poetry and consider her to be one of the
very best so maybe that colours my view but could you to give a bit of detail
about that 'influence' - do you mean subject, style, both, or what? The only
thing I would say is that I think the general American influence helped to free
his work up a bit.
Cheers
Tim
On 12 Dec 2014, at 23:34, Sean Carey wrote:
> I would take the view now that "Penniless Politics" was not a total failure
yet I see it as a project that is a good example of an idea best left as an
idea. At that stage Douglas was living in America. "Poetry and Narrative In
Performance" proceeded it and his Paladin masterpiece emerged in 1990. For me
this is a classic as is "Kind" which takes in his work from 1969 onwards. Wendy
Mulford published "In the Cave of Suicession" in 1974. This work in its own way
is built on Oliver heading into an actual cave with a manual typewriter. What
emerged was a stunning poem I am amazed that is not seen as an epic in a multi
media sense. Lyrical and surreal and totally buzzing with rhythm. He captures so
much in this work to a degree rarely seen in poetry. It puts what he achieved in
"The Harmless Building" on to a new level.
>
> My point in a nutshell is that Oliver should have continued to explore rather
than perhaps listen too much to Alice Notley? His work and Notley's on
reflection prior to "Penniless Politics" were poles apart. She is a big hitter
in her own field Couples who write can often feel a shadow if either is more
acclaimed. It is a common problem all through literary history as are
relationships within poetic groups or circles literary. Often political parties
are lonely hearts clubs and journalists never stop being journalists. Oliver was
a working journalist for a lot of his life.
>
> The later works I feel while impressive never reached the heights of his
output in the Paladin and in "Kind". I see the shadow of Notley in the two final
books. A harsh judgement but one based on Oliver's own strengths.
>
> On a final note I regret Douglas did not value the Paul Buck driven writing
that was published in Curtains. Given that his own work covered many sexual
areas I never saw the logic of not recognising the advances made by Paul Buck.
>
</tt></pre>
<span class="aolmail_HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"> </font></span>
<span class="aolmail_HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"> </font></span>
</blockquote>
<span class="aolmail_HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"> </font></span>
</div>
<span class="aolmail_HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"> <br clear="all">
--
<div dir="ltr">
David Joseph Bircumshaw
<div>
<i><span style="font-style:italic"></span></i>
Website and A Chide's Alphabet
<a target="_blank" href="http://www.staplednapkin.org.uk">http://www.staplednapkin.org.uk</a>
The Animal Subsides
<a target="_blank" href="http://www.arrowheadpress.co.uk/books/animal.html">http://www.arrowheadpress.co.uk/books/animal.html</a>
Facebook:
<a target="_blank" href="http://www.facebook.com/david.bircumshaw">http://www.facebook.com/david.bircumshaw</a>
Tumblr:
<a target="_blank" href="http://zantikus.tumblr.com/">http://zantikus.tumblr.com/</a>
twitter:
<a target="_blank" href="http://twitter.com/bucketshave">http://twitter.com/bucketshave</a>
blog:
<a target="_blank" href="http://groggydays.blogspot.com/">http://groggydays.blogspot.com/</a>
Leicester Poetry Society:
<a target="_blank" href="http://www.poetryleicester.com">http://www.poetryleicester.com</a>
</div>
</div> </font></span>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br clear="all">
--
<div class="aolmail_gmail_signature">
<div dir="ltr">
David Joseph Bircumshaw
<i><span style="font-style:italic"></span></i>
Website and A Chide's Alphabet
<a target="_blank" href="http://www.staplednapkin.org.uk">http://www.staplednapkin.org.uk</a>
The Animal Subsides
<a target="_blank" href="http://www.arrowheadpress.co.uk/books/animal.html">http://www.arrowheadpress.co.uk/books/animal.html</a>
Facebook:
<a target="_blank" href="http://www.facebook.com/david.bircumshaw">http://www.facebook.com/david.bircumshaw</a>
Tumblr:
<a target="_blank" href="http://zantikus.tumblr.com/">http://zantikus.tumblr.com/</a>
twitter:
<a target="_blank" href="http://twitter.com/bucketshave">http://twitter.com/bucketshave</a>
blog:
<a target="_blank" href="http://groggydays.blogspot.com/">http://groggydays.blogspot.com/</a>
Leicester Poetry Society:
<a target="_blank" href="http://www.poetryleicester.com">http://www.poetryleicester.com</a>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div></div></div>
------=_Part_3922_1531391168.1418640666828
Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
For a UKIP move to back a Tory coalition would either mean an actual govern=
ment with UKIP ministers or the option of backing the Tories in the Commons=
. To do either would undermine any PM from defining an actual programme for=
government. Mass deportations and moves against the Asian community's cult=
ure would meet serious opposition. To impose the UKIP notion of Britishness=
on non-British cultures is not possible. To leave the E.U. would mean Brit=
ain would be seen as the pariah of Europe if E.U. nationals are deported as=
UKIP demand. UKIP have never explained which nation ality they will exclud=
e.<div><br></div><div>The success of UKIP is based on simple solutions to c=
omplex problems. Farage himself looks like a character who walked off a Car=
ry On film set. He drinks wine in private but beer in public. Harold Wilson=
loved cigars but smoked a pipe in public. Farage blames the E.U. and peopl=
e from outside the U.K. for all of Britain's problems. Cameron instead of c=
onfronting UKIP has yielded to their demands. Miliband is doing the same in=
taking UKIP policies on board. </div><div><br></div><div>The only mai=
n political party to go against the UKIP drift are the Lib Dems to their cr=
edit. But their stance will probably lead to a wipe-out next May. The left =
beyond Labour have not applied the anti BNP/EDL protests to UKIP. One wonde=
rs why a double standard applies to Farage compared to Nick Griffin? The po=
licies of UKIP are not too removed from the BNP who had few toffs in their =
ranks or folk who dwell on country estates.</div><div><br></div><div>Intere=
sting times but scary!</div><div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><div><b=
r></div><div><br><br>Sent from AOL Mobile Mail<br><br><br>-----Original Mes=
sage-----<br>From: David Bircumshaw <[log in to unmask]><br>To=
: BRITISH-IRISH-POETS <[log in to unmask]><br>Sent: M=
on, Dec 15, 2014 01:01 AM<br>Subject: Re: A Celtic Rainbow Coalition With L=
abour<br><br><br>
<div id=3D"AOLMsgPart_2_d707215c-3cd3-4263-bc8c-72ff1ae80497">
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div>
<div>
<div>
Hi Sean
<br>
<br>
</div>perhaps I was too elliptical and even curt: what I fear is a righ=
t-wing coalition after the next election, with Cameron and Osborne at its h=
eart, and Farage as comic turn. I know some SNP people, even possibly inclu=
ding Alex himself, think they maybe able to force a coalition with Labour, =
but I really can't see that happening. What I fear, I emphasise that verb, =
is a devil's pact between UKIP and the Tories, with the blessings of the pu=
ppetmasters in Washington. After all, the reality of British political life=
is our slow, unpleasant and inevitable Americanisation. Unum is lusting af=
ter the NHS etc.
<br>
<br>
</div>best
<br>
<br>
</div>Dave
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"aolmail_gmail_extra">
<br>
<div class=3D"aolmail_gmail_quote">
On 14 December 2014 at 15:20, Sean Carey=20
<span dir=3D"ltr"><<a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:sean.carey1@ao=
l.co.uk">[log in to unmask]</a>></span> wrote:
<blockquote class=3D"aolmail_gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;bor=
der-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Is possible David but will the English in their current mood accept that to=
put Ed Miliband in number 10? The demands for cash from London would merel=
y boost UKIP who could finish the conservatives as we knew them. The odd th=
ing is that the SNP and the Welsh and Irish nationalists are well to the ri=
ght of Miliband and David Cameron. Many of the Welsh and Irish policies on =
Europe are similar to UKIP's with the S.N.P. liable to ditch their pro E.U.=
stance. The position of the neo Unionist Democratic Unionist Party could l=
eave them as the power-brokers next May. To support Miliband would be ok fo=
r Sinn Fein who will take their seats but harder for their bedfellows in th=
e D.U.P.
<div>
<br>
</div>
<div>
So all kinds of rainbows could be seen in Westminister of hues not seen in =
many a generation. The referendum in Scotland instead of defining British h=
istory could end up breaking up the Union. But any nationalism cannot be ex=
pected to improve the lives of their poor in any nation state. The notion o=
f UKIP that mass deportations will not be resisted is high risk lunacy. Nor=
can they expect the Asian communities to have laws imposed on them by UKIP=
or by a
</div>
<div>
celtic rainbow backed Labour government.
</div>
<div>
<br>
</div>
<div>
These are high risks times David. I hope reason will prevail rather than ma=
ss hysteria and indeed the retirement of Dennis Skinner is a sad event. His=
speech on the morning UKIP's Mark Reckless took his seat is one anyone int=
erested in saving us all from populist nationalism should read in detail. T=
hese were the words of a man rooted in genuine internationalist socialism n=
ot into seeing those of other creeds or races as the main problem facing bo=
th Ireland and Britain. Rather than being the solution Mr Farage is now the=
most serious security risk to Britain seen since the 1930s.
</div>
<div>
Sent from AOL Mobile Mail
<br>
<br>
<br>-----Original Message-----
<br>From: David Bircumshaw <
<a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">cheepst=
[log in to unmask]</a>>
<br>To: BRITISH-IRISH-POETS <
<a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]
">[log in to unmask]</a>>
<br>Sent: Sun, Dec 14, 2014 04:25 AM
<br>Subject: Re: Douglas Oliver Continued
<br>
<br>
<br>=20
<div>=20
<div dir=3D"ltr">=20
<div>=20
<div>
Sean=20
<br>=20
<br>The only thing I can say for definite about the next election =
is that the wonderful Dennis Skinner is standing down. In the shape of thin=
gs, it should be a Labour landslide, but in the reality, with the lacklustr=
e Ed Milliband at the helm, it ain't gonna be so. I do fear another coaliti=
on, thanks to the effects of UKIP and the opportunist Scots Nats. The Labou=
r Party sold its soul to the devil when it opened out to Tony Blair, the ro=
ad back is a long and possibly unattainable one. I can say, attest even, th=
at I have dealings with my constituency Labour MP on my own and others beha=
lf, and he and his staff have been little short of superb. It is at the nat=
ional level things go wrong.=20
<br>=20
<br>=20
<br>=20
</div>Best=20
<br>=20
<br>=20
</div>Dave=20
<br>=20
</div>=20
<div>=20
<br>=20
<div>
On 13 December 2014 at 13:31, Sean Carey=20
<span dir=3D"ltr"><<a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:sean.care=
[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>></span> wrote:=20
<blockquote style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;p=
adding-left:1ex">
The early death of Douglas left a vacuum leaving us wonder where he would =
have gone in his work. I like Alice who seems to cross the poetic divides v=
ery well. If mention her to poets in the Salmon or Gallery Presses in Irela=
nd they indeed know about her work. That would not apply to many other poet=
s who write in her style.=20
<br>=20
<br>Some years ago Robert Creeley read in Bewley's Cafe in Dublin'=
s Grafton Street and the poet who introduced him had never heard of him. Th=
is despite the fact that the same poet went on to edit and present poetry p=
rogrammes for radio. So Alice being known is a tribute to her in that conte=
xt.=20
<br>=20
<br>Often the mainstream likes to claim poets as English if they a=
re an easy read as well as easy to teach. Indeed that applies in most poeti=
c cultures. In this year of recalling World War One we had poetic groups lo=
oking to get their poet labeled as a "war poet" which meant admission to ev=
ents, etc. But on that list were many easily read writers with others being=
ignored regardless of their actual war record.=20
<br>=20
<br>The power of Oliver for me is his grasp of what it means to gr=
ow up in England after a dreadful war destroyed so much. That of course mea=
ns first the loss of lives as well as massive losses of vital services wlth=
in communities. To see England now go with the UKIP surge is depressing and=
the contempt for democratic structures. If UKIP hold the balance of power =
after May next year we are all on the edge of civil unrest. Any left wing p=
arty that agrees with UKIP on any issue should ditch that policy at once. A=
lot is at stake that took generations to build after another fascist surge=
led us into WW2. The likes of Douglas Oliver would barely recognise the En=
glish mood of 2014.=20
<br>=20
<br>=20
<br>=20
<br>=20
<br>-----Original Message-----=20
<br>From:=20
<a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">tallentw@AOL=
.COM</a>=20
<br>To: BRITISH-IRISH-POETS=20
<u></u>=20
<br>Sent: Sat, 13 Dec 2014 7:05=20
<br>Subject: Re: Douglas Oliver Continued=20
<br>=20
<br>=20
<div style=3D"margin:0px;font-family:Tahoma,Verdana,Arial,Sans-Ser=
if;font-size:12px;color:#000;background-color:#fff">=20
<pre style=3D"font-size:9pt"><tt>The first time I read Oliver was=
Pearl and my reading of him went on from there.=20
Of course I agree about the quality of the early stuff but I would make a s=
trong=20
case for the later as well - it was the later stuff that I read more thorou=
ghly=20
because I was reviewing it in Terrible Work - what about Salvo for Africa -=
an=20
extraordinary work and one that should have got so much more notice and com=
ment.=20
I never enjoyed Penniless Politics much but don't really know why - certain=
ly=20
not because of the 'politics' - I think I found it a bit flat and too vague=
or=20
something, I must go back to it.
I don't really know what to say about your contention that Alice had a nega=
tive=20
writing influence on him. Their work still seemed to be very much their own=
to=20
me. I am a huge fan of Alice Notley's poetry and consider her to be one of =
the=20
very best so maybe that colours my view but could you to give a bit of deta=
il=20
about that 'influence' - do you mean subject, style, both, or what? The on=
ly=20
thing I would say is that I think the general American influence helped to =
free=20
his work up a bit.
Cheers
Tim
On 12 Dec 2014, at 23:34, Sean Carey wrote:
> I would take the view now that "Penniless Politics" was not a total fa=
ilure=20
yet I see it as a project that is a good example of an idea best left as an=
=20
idea. At that stage Douglas was living in America. "Poetry and Narrative In=
=20
Performance" proceeded it and his Paladin masterpiece emerged in 1990. For =
me=20
this is a classic as is "Kind" which takes in his work from 1969 onwards. W=
endy=20
Mulford published "In the Cave of Suicession" in 1974. This work in its own=
way=20
is built on Oliver heading into an actual cave with a manual typewriter. Wh=
at=20
emerged was a stunning poem I am amazed that is not seen as an epic in a mu=
lti=20
media sense. Lyrical and surreal and totally buzzing with rhythm. He captur=
es so=20
much in this work to a degree rarely seen in poetry. It puts what he achiev=
ed in=20
"The Harmless Building" on to a new level.
>=20
> My point in a nutshell is that Oliver should have continued to explore=
rather=20
than perhaps listen too much to Alice Notley? His work and Notley's on=20
reflection prior to "Penniless Politics" were poles apart. She is a big hit=
ter=20
in her own field Couples who write can often feel a shadow if either is mor=
e=20
acclaimed. It is a common problem all through literary history as are=20
relationships within poetic groups or circles literary. Often political par=
ties=20
are lonely hearts clubs and journalists never stop being journalists. Olive=
r was=20
a working journalist for a lot of his life.
>=20
> The later works I feel while impressive never reached the heights of h=
is=20
output in the Paladin and in "Kind". I see the shadow of Notley in the two =
final=20
books. A harsh judgement but one based on Oliver's own strengths.
>=20
> On a final note I regret Douglas did not value the Paul Buck driven wr=
iting=20
that was published in Curtains. Given that his own work covered many sexual=
=20
areas I never saw the logic of not recognising the advances made by Paul Bu=
ck.
>=20
</tt></pre>
<span class=3D"aolmail_HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"> </font></=
span>
</div>
<span class=3D"aolmail_HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"> </font></s=
pan>
</blockquote>
<span class=3D"aolmail_HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"> </font></sp=
an>
</div>
<span class=3D"aolmail_HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"> <br clear=3D=
"all"> <br>-- <br>=20
<div>=20
<div dir=3D"ltr">
David Joseph Bircumshaw=20
<br>=20
<div>=20
<i><span style=3D"font-style:italic"></span></i>=20
</div>Website and A Chide's Alphabet=20
<br>=20
<a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://www.staplednapkin.org.uk">ht=
tp://www.staplednapkin.org.uk</a>=20
<br>The Animal Subsides=20
<a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://www.arrowheadpress.co.uk/boo=
ks/animal.html">http://www.arrowheadpress.co.uk/books/animal.html</a>=20
<br>Facebook:=20
<a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://www.facebook.com/david.bircu=
mshaw">http://www.facebook.com/david.bircumshaw</a>=20
<br>Tumblr:=20
<a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://zantikus.tumblr.com/">http:/=
/zantikus.tumblr.com/</a>=20
<br>twitter:=20
<a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://twitter.com/bucketshave">htt=
p://twitter.com/bucketshave</a>=20
<br>blog:=20
<a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://groggydays.blogspot.com/">ht=
tp://groggydays.blogspot.com/</a>=20
<br>Leicester Poetry Society:=20
<a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://www.poetryleicester.com">htt=
p://www.poetryleicester.com</a>=20
<br>=20
</div>=20
</div> </font></span>
</div>=20
</div>=20
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br clear=3D"all">
<br>--=20
<br>
<div class=3D"aolmail_gmail_signature">
<div dir=3D"ltr">
David Joseph Bircumshaw
<br>
<div>
<i><span style=3D"font-style:italic"></span></i>
</div>Website and A Chide's Alphabet
<br>
<a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://www.staplednapkin.org.uk">http://ww=
w.staplednapkin.org.uk</a>=20
<br>The Animal Subsides=20
<a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://www.arrowheadpress.co.uk/books/anim=
al.html">http://www.arrowheadpress.co.uk/books/animal.html</a>
<br>Facebook:=20
<a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://www.facebook.com/david.bircumshaw">=
http://www.facebook.com/david.bircumshaw</a>
<br>Tumblr:=20
<a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://zantikus.tumblr.com/">http://zantik=
us.tumblr.com/</a>
<br>twitter:=20
<a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://twitter.com/bucketshave">http://twi=
tter.com/bucketshave</a>
<br>blog:=20
<a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://groggydays.blogspot.com/">http://gr=
oggydays.blogspot.com/</a>
<br>Leicester Poetry Society:=20
<a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://www.poetryleicester.com">http://www=
.poetryleicester.com</a>
<br>
</div>
</div>=20
</div>=20
</div>
</div></div></div>
------=_Part_3922_1531391168.1418640666828--
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2014 10:22:39 -0500
Reply-To: British & Irish poets <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: British & Irish poets <[log in to unmask]>
From: Sean Carey <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: The wily Alex
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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boundary="----=_Part_4934_1075595581.1418656959196"
Message-ID: <[log in to unmask]>
------=_Part_4934_1075595581.1418656959196
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Salmond assumes a lot and in his timing on the Yes or No vote miscalulated. The SNP is rooted in conservative thinking with their core support among well paid workers who would be happy to lose Labour or socialist thinking. It is their view that poverty is just a scam that they pay for with their taxes. They like the SNP because it rids them of Labour and English liberalism in a split from London. UKIP and the Celtic Nationalists are not and never were socialists. Their roots are in Italian 19th century nationalism. I see no trace of John MacLean in the SNP brand but a lot of Garibaldi.
Sent from AOL Mobile Mail
-----Original Message-----
From: David Bircumshaw <[log in to unmask]>
To: BRITISH-IRISH-POETS <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Mon, Dec 15, 2014 01:01 iiAM
Subject: eRe: A Celtic Rainbow Coalition With Labour
<div id="AOLMsgPart_2_7f376da0-f930-4bf7-862f-04c1c58b8082">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div>
Hi Sean
perhaps I was too elliptical and even curt: what I fear is a right-wing coalition after the next election, with Cameron and Osborne at its heart, and Farage as comic turn. I know some SNP people, even possibly including Alex himself, think they maybe able to force a coalition with Labour, but I really can't see that happening. What I fear, I emphasise that verb, is a devil's pact between UKIP and the Tories, with the blessings of the puppetmasters in Washington. After all, the reality of British political life is our slow, unpleasant and inevitable Americanisation. Unum is lusting after the NHS etc.
</div>best
</div>Dave
</div>
<div class="aolmail_gmail_extra">
<div class="aolmail_gmail_quote">
On 14 December 2014 at 15:20, Sean Carey
<span dir="ltr"><<a target="_blank" href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>></span> wrote:
<blockquote class="aolmail_gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Is possible David but will the English in their current mood accept that to put Ed Miliband in number 10? The demands for cash from London would merely boost UKIP who could finish the conservatives as we knew them. The odd thing is that the SNP and the Welsh and Irish nationalists are well to the right of Miliband and David Cameron. Many of the Welsh and Irish policies on Europe are similar to UKIP's with the S.N.P. liable to ditch their pro E.U. stance. The position of the neo Unionist Democratic Unionist Party could leave them as the power-brokers next May. To support Miliband would be ok for Sinn Fein who will take their seats but harder for their bedfellows in the D.U.P.
So all kinds of rainbows could be seen in Westminister of hues not seen in many a generation. The referendum in Scotland instead of defining British history could end up breaking up the Union. But any nationalism cannot be expected to improve the lives of their poor in any nation state. The notion of UKIP that mass deportations will not be resisted is high risk lunacy. Nor can they expect the Asian communities to have laws imposed on them by UKIP or by a
celtic rainbow backed Labour government.
These are high risks times David. I hope reason will prevail rather than mass hysteria and indeed the retirement of Dennis Skinner is a sad event. His speech on the morning UKIP's Mark Reckless took his seat is one anyone interested in saving us all from populist nationalism should read in detail. These were the words of a man rooted in genuine internationalist socialism not into seeing those of other creeds or races as the main problem facing both Ireland and Britain. Rather than being the solution Mr Farage is now the most serious security risk to Britain seen since the 1930s.
Sent from AOL Mobile Mail
-----Original Message-----
From: David Bircumshaw <
<a target="_blank" href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>>
To: BRITISH-IRISH-POETS <
<a target="_blank" href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>>
Sent: Sun, Dec 14, 2014 04:25 AM
Subject: Re: Douglas Oliver Continued
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div>
Sean
The only thing I can say for definite about the next election is that the wonderful Dennis Skinner is standing down. In the shape of things, it should be a Labour landslide, but in the reality, with the lacklustre Ed Milliband at the helm, it ain't gonna be so. I do fear another coalition, thanks to the effects of UKIP and the opportunist Scots Nats. The Labour Party sold its soul to the devil when it opened out to Tony Blair, the road back is a long and possibly unattainable one. I can say, attest even, that I have dealings with my constituency Labour MP on my own and others behalf, and he and his staff have been little short of superb. It is at the national level things go wrong.
Best
</div>Dave
</div>
<div>
On 13 December 2014 at 13:31, Sean Carey
<span dir="ltr"><<a target="_blank" href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>></span> wrote:
<blockquote style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
The early death of Douglas left a vacuum leaving us wonder where he would have gone in his work. I like Alice who seems to cross the poetic divides very well. If mention her to poets in the Salmon or Gallery Presses in Ireland they indeed know about her work. That would not apply to many other poets who write in her style.
Some years ago Robert Creeley read in Bewley's Cafe in Dublin's Grafton Street and the poet who introduced him had never heard of him. This despite the fact that the same poet went on to edit and present poetry programmes for radio. So Alice being known is a tribute to her in that context.
Often the mainstream likes to claim poets as English if they are an easy read as well as easy to teach. Indeed that applies in most poetic cultures. In this year of recalling World War One we had poetic groups looking to get their poet labeled as a "war poet" which meant admission to events, etc. But on that list were many easily read writers with others being ignored regardless of their actual war record.
The power of Oliver for me is his grasp of what it means to grow up in England after a dreadful war destroyed so much. That of course means first the loss of lives as well as massive losses of vital services wlthin communities. To see England now go with the UKIP surge is depressing and the contempt for democratic structures. If UKIP hold the balance of power after May next year we are all on the edge of civil unrest. Any left wing party that agrees with UKIP on any issue should ditch that policy at once. A lot is at stake that took generations to build after another fascist surge led us into WW2. The likes of Douglas Oliver would barely recognise the English mood of 2014.
-----Original Message-----
From:
<a target="_blank" href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>
To: BRITISH-IRISH-POETS
<u></u>
Sent: Sat, 13 Dec 2014 7:05
Subject: Re: Douglas Oliver Continued
<div style="margin:0px;font-family:Tahoma,Verdana,Arial,Sans-Serif;font-size:12px;color:#000;background-color:#fff">
<pre style="font-size:9pt"><tt>The first time I read Oliver was Pearl and my reading of him went on from there.
Of course I agree about the quality of the early stuff but I would make a strong
case for the later as well - it was the later stuff that I read more thoroughly
because I was reviewing it in Terrible Work - what about Salvo for Africa - an
extraordinary work and one that should have got so much more notice and comment.
I never enjoyed Penniless Politics much but don't really know why - certainly
not because of the 'politics' - I think I found it a bit flat and too vague or
something, I must go back to it.
I don't really know what to say about your contention that Alice had a negative
writing influence on him. Their work still seemed to be very much their own to
me. I am a huge fan of Alice Notley's poetry and consider her to be one of the
very best so maybe that colours my view but could you to give a bit of detail
about that 'influence' - do you mean subject, style, both, or what? The only
thing I would say is that I think the general American influence helped to free
his work up a bit.
Cheers
Tim
On 12 Dec 2014, at 23:34, Sean Carey wrote:
> I would take the view now that "Penniless Politics" was not a total failure
yet I see it as a project that is a good example of an idea best left as an
idea. At that stage Douglas was living in America. "Poetry and Narrative In
Performance" proceeded it and his Paladin masterpiece emerged in 1990. For me
this is a classic as is "Kind" which takes in his work from 1969 onwards. Wendy
Mulford published "In the Cave of Suicession" in 1974. This work in its own way
is built on Oliver heading into an actual cave with a manual typewriter. What
emerged was a stunning poem I am amazed that is not seen as an epic in a multi
media sense. Lyrical and surreal and totally buzzing with rhythm. He captures so
much in this work to a degree rarely seen in poetry. It puts what he achieved in
"The Harmless Building" on to a new level.
>
> My point in a nutshell is that Oliver should have continued to explore rather
than perhaps listen too much to Alice Notley? His work and Notley's on
reflection prior to "Penniless Politics" were poles apart. She is a big hitter
in her own field Couples who write can often feel a shadow if either is more
acclaimed. It is a common problem all through literary history as are
relationships within poetic groups or circles literary. Often political parties
are lonely hearts clubs and journalists never stop being journalists. Oliver was
a working journalist for a lot of his life.
>
> The later works I feel while impressive never reached the heights of his
output in the Paladin and in "Kind". I see the shadow of Notley in the two final
books. A harsh judgement but one based on Oliver's own strengths.
>
> On a final note I regret Douglas did not value the Paul Buck driven writing
that was published in Curtains. Given that his own work covered many sexual
areas I never saw the logic of not recognising the advances made by Paul Buck.
>
</tt></pre>
<span class="aolmail_HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"> </font></span>
<span class="aolmail_HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"> </font></span>
</blockquote>
<span class="aolmail_HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"> </font></span>
</div>
<span class="aolmail_HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"> <br clear="all">
--
<div dir="ltr">
David Joseph Bircumshaw
<div>
<i><span style="font-style:italic"></span></i>
Website and A Chide's Alphabet
<a target="_blank" href="http://www.staplednapkin.org.uk">http://www.staplednapkin.org.uk</a>
The Animal Subsides
<a target="_blank" href="http://www.arrowheadpress.co.uk/books/animal.html">http://www.arrowheadpress.co.uk/books/animal.html</a>
Facebook:
<a target="_blank" href="http://www.facebook.com/david.bircumshaw">http://www.facebook.com/david.bircumshaw</a>
Tumblr:
<a target="_blank" href="http://zantikus.tumblr.com/">http://zantikus.tumblr.com/</a>
twitter:
<a target="_blank" href="http://twitter.com/bucketshave">http://twitter.com/bucketshave</a>
blog:
<a target="_blank" href="http://groggydays.blogspot.com/">http://groggydays.blogspot.com/</a>
Leicester Poetry Society:
<a target="_blank" href="http://www.poetryleicester.com">http://www.poetryleicester.com</a>
</div>
</div> </font></span>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br clear="all">
--
<div class="aolmail_gmail_signature">
<div dir="ltr">
David Joseph Bircumshaw
<i><span style="font-style:italic"></span></i>
Website and A Chide's Alphabet
<a target="_blank" href="http://www.staplednapkin.org.uk">http://www.staplednapkin.org.uk</a>
The Animal Subsides
<a target="_blank" href="http://www.arrowheadpress.co.uk/books/animal.html">http://www.arrowheadpress.co.uk/books/animal.html</a>
Facebook:
<a target="_blank" href="http://www.facebook.com/david.bircumshaw">http://www.facebook.com/david.bircumshaw</a>
Tumblr:
<a target="_blank" href="http://zantikus.tumblr.com/">http://zantikus.tumblr.com/</a>
twitter:
<a target="_blank" href="http://twitter.com/bucketshave">http://twitter.com/bucketshave</a>
blog:
<a target="_blank" href="http://groggydays.blogspot.com/">http://groggydays.blogspot.com/</a>
Leicester Poetry Society:
<a target="_blank" href="http://www.poetryleicester.com">http://www.poetryleicester.com</a>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
------=_Part_4934_1075595581.1418656959196
Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Salmond assumes a lot and in his timing on the Yes or No vote miscalulated. The SNP is rooted in conservative thinking with their core support among well paid workers who would be happy to lose Labour or socialist thinking. It is their view that poverty is just a scam that they pay for with their taxes. They like the SNP because it rids them of Labour and English liberalism in a split from London. UKIP and the Celtic Nationalists are not and never were socialists. Their roots are in Italian 19th century nationalism. I see no trace of John MacLean in the SNP brand but a lot of Garibaldi.<br><br>Sent from AOL Mobile Mail<br><br><br>-----Original Message-----<br>From: David Bircumshaw <[log in to unmask]><br>To: BRITISH-IRISH-POETS <[log in to unmask]><br>Sent: Mon, Dec 15, 2014 01:01 iiAM<br>Subject: eRe: A Celtic Rainbow Coalition With Labour<br><br><br>
<div id="AOLMsgPart_2_7f376da0-f930-4bf7-862f-04c1c58b8082">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div>
<div>
Hi Sean
<br>
<br>
</div>perhaps I was too elliptical and even curt: what I fear is a right-wing coalition after the next election, with Cameron and Osborne at its heart, and Farage as comic turn. I know some SNP people, even possibly including Alex himself, think they maybe able to force a coalition with Labour, but I really can't see that happening. What I fear, I emphasise that verb, is a devil's pact between UKIP and the Tories, with the blessings of the puppetmasters in Washington. After all, the reality of British political life is our slow, unpleasant and inevitable Americanisation. Unum is lusting after the NHS etc.
<br>
<br>
</div>best
<br>
<br>
</div>Dave
<br>
</div>
<div class="aolmail_gmail_extra">
<br>
<div class="aolmail_gmail_quote">
On 14 December 2014 at 15:20, Sean Carey
<span dir="ltr"><<a target="_blank" href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>></span> wrote:
<blockquote class="aolmail_gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Is possible David but will the English in their current mood accept that to put Ed Miliband in number 10? The demands for cash from London would merely boost UKIP who could finish the conservatives as we knew them. The odd thing is that the SNP and the Welsh and Irish nationalists are well to the right of Miliband and David Cameron. Many of the Welsh and Irish policies on Europe are similar to UKIP's with the S.N.P. liable to ditch their pro E.U. stance. The position of the neo Unionist Democratic Unionist Party could leave them as the power-brokers next May. To support Miliband would be ok for Sinn Fein who will take their seats but harder for their bedfellows in the D.U.P.
<div>
<br>
</div>
<div>
So all kinds of rainbows could be seen in Westminister of hues not seen in many a generation. The referendum in Scotland instead of defining British history could end up breaking up the Union. But any nationalism cannot be expected to improve the lives of their poor in any nation state. The notion of UKIP that mass deportations will not be resisted is high risk lunacy. Nor can they expect the Asian communities to have laws imposed on them by UKIP or by a
</div>
<div>
celtic rainbow backed Labour government.
</div>
<div>
<br>
</div>
<div>
These are high risks times David. I hope reason will prevail rather than mass hysteria and indeed the retirement of Dennis Skinner is a sad event. His speech on the morning UKIP's Mark Reckless took his seat is one anyone interested in saving us all from populist nationalism should read in detail. These were the words of a man rooted in genuine internationalist socialism not into seeing those of other creeds or races as the main problem facing both Ireland and Britain. Rather than being the solution Mr Farage is now the most serious security risk to Britain seen since the 1930s.
</div>
<div>
Sent from AOL Mobile Mail
<br>
<br>
<br>-----Original Message-----
<br>From: David Bircumshaw <
<a target="_blank" href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>>
<br>To: BRITISH-IRISH-POETS <
<a target="_blank" href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>>
<br>Sent: Sun, Dec 14, 2014 04:25 AM
<br>Subject: Re: Douglas Oliver Continued
<br>
<br>
<br>
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div>
Sean
<br>
<br>The only thing I can say for definite about the next election is that the wonderful Dennis Skinner is standing down. In the shape of things, it should be a Labour landslide, but in the reality, with the lacklustre Ed Milliband at the helm, it ain't gonna be so. I do fear another coalition, thanks to the effects of UKIP and the opportunist Scots Nats. The Labour Party sold its soul to the devil when it opened out to Tony Blair, the road back is a long and possibly unattainable one. I can say, attest even, that I have dealings with my constituency Labour MP on my own and others behalf, and he and his staff have been little short of superb. It is at the national level things go wrong.
<br>
<br>
<br>
</div>Best
<br>
<br>
</div>Dave
<br>
</div>
<div>
<br>
<div>
On 13 December 2014 at 13:31, Sean Carey
<span dir="ltr"><<a target="_blank" href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>></span> wrote:
<blockquote style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
The early death of Douglas left a vacuum leaving us wonder where he would have gone in his work. I like Alice who seems to cross the poetic divides very well. If mention her to poets in the Salmon or Gallery Presses in Ireland they indeed know about her work. That would not apply to many other poets who write in her style.
<br>
<br>Some years ago Robert Creeley read in Bewley's Cafe in Dublin's Grafton Street and the poet who introduced him had never heard of him. This despite the fact that the same poet went on to edit and present poetry programmes for radio. So Alice being known is a tribute to her in that context.
<br>
<br>Often the mainstream likes to claim poets as English if they are an easy read as well as easy to teach. Indeed that applies in most poetic cultures. In this year of recalling World War One we had poetic groups looking to get their poet labeled as a "war poet" which meant admission to events, etc. But on that list were many easily read writers with others being ignored regardless of their actual war record.
<br>
<br>The power of Oliver for me is his grasp of what it means to grow up in England after a dreadful war destroyed so much. That of course means first the loss of lives as well as massive losses of vital services wlthin communities. To see England now go with the UKIP surge is depressing and the contempt for democratic structures. If UKIP hold the balance of power after May next year we are all on the edge of civil unrest. Any left wing party that agrees with UKIP on any issue should ditch that policy at once. A lot is at stake that took generations to build after another fascist surge led us into WW2. The likes of Douglas Oliver would barely recognise the English mood of 2014.
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>-----Original Message-----
<br>From:
<a target="_blank" href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>
<br>To: BRITISH-IRISH-POETS
<u></u>
<br>Sent: Sat, 13 Dec 2014 7:05
<br>Subject: Re: Douglas Oliver Continued
<br>
<br>
<div style="margin:0px;font-family:Tahoma,Verdana,Arial,Sans-Serif;font-size:12px;color:#000;background-color:#fff">
<pre style="font-size:9pt"><tt>The first time I read Oliver was Pearl and my reading of him went on from there.
Of course I agree about the quality of the early stuff but I would make a strong
case for the later as well - it was the later stuff that I read more thoroughly
because I was reviewing it in Terrible Work - what about Salvo for Africa - an
extraordinary work and one that should have got so much more notice and comment.
I never enjoyed Penniless Politics much but don't really know why - certainly
not because of the 'politics' - I think I found it a bit flat and too vague or
something, I must go back to it.
I don't really know what to say about your contention that Alice had a negative
writing influence on him. Their work still seemed to be very much their own to
me. I am a huge fan of Alice Notley's poetry and consider her to be one of the
very best so maybe that colours my view but could you to give a bit of detail
about that 'influence' - do you mean subject, style, both, or what? The only
thing I would say is that I think the general American influence helped to free
his work up a bit.
Cheers
Tim
On 12 Dec 2014, at 23:34, Sean Carey wrote:
> I would take the view now that "Penniless Politics" was not a total failure
yet I see it as a project that is a good example of an idea best left as an
idea. At that stage Douglas was living in America. "Poetry and Narrative In
Performance" proceeded it and his Paladin masterpiece emerged in 1990. For me
this is a classic as is "Kind" which takes in his work from 1969 onwards. Wendy
Mulford published "In the Cave of Suicession" in 1974. This work in its own way
is built on Oliver heading into an actual cave with a manual typewriter. What
emerged was a stunning poem I am amazed that is not seen as an epic in a multi
media sense. Lyrical and surreal and totally buzzing with rhythm. He captures so
much in this work to a degree rarely seen in poetry. It puts what he achieved in
"The Harmless Building" on to a new level.
>
> My point in a nutshell is that Oliver should have continued to explore rather
than perhaps listen too much to Alice Notley? His work and Notley's on
reflection prior to "Penniless Politics" were poles apart. She is a big hitter
in her own field Couples who write can often feel a shadow if either is more
acclaimed. It is a common problem all through literary history as are
relationships within poetic groups or circles literary. Often political parties
are lonely hearts clubs and journalists never stop being journalists. Oliver was
a working journalist for a lot of his life.
>
> The later works I feel while impressive never reached the heights of his
output in the Paladin and in "Kind". I see the shadow of Notley in the two final
books. A harsh judgement but one based on Oliver's own strengths.
>
> On a final note I regret Douglas did not value the Paul Buck driven writing
that was published in Curtains. Given that his own work covered many sexual
areas I never saw the logic of not recognising the advances made by Paul Buck.
>
</tt></pre>
<span class="aolmail_HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"> </font></span>
</div>
<span class="aolmail_HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"> </font></span>
</blockquote>
<span class="aolmail_HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"> </font></span>
</div>
<span class="aolmail_HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"> <br clear="all"> <br>-- <br>
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
David Joseph Bircumshaw
<br>
<div>
<i><span style="font-style:italic"></span></i>
</div>Website and A Chide's Alphabet
<br>
<a target="_blank" href="http://www.staplednapkin.org.uk">http://www.staplednapkin.org.uk</a>
<br>The Animal Subsides
<a target="_blank" href="http://www.arrowheadpress.co.uk/books/animal.html">http://www.arrowheadpress.co.uk/books/animal.html</a>
<br>Facebook:
<a target="_blank" href="http://www.facebook.com/david.bircumshaw">http://www.facebook.com/david.bircumshaw</a>
<br>Tumblr:
<a target="_blank" href="http://zantikus.tumblr.com/">http://zantikus.tumblr.com/</a>
<br>twitter:
<a target="_blank" href="http://twitter.com/bucketshave">http://twitter.com/bucketshave</a>
<br>blog:
<a target="_blank" href="http://groggydays.blogspot.com/">http://groggydays.blogspot.com/</a>
<br>Leicester Poetry Society:
<a target="_blank" href="http://www.poetryleicester.com">http://www.poetryleicester.com</a>
<br>
</div>
</div> </font></span>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br clear="all">
<br>--
<br>
<div class="aolmail_gmail_signature">
<div dir="ltr">
David Joseph Bircumshaw
<br>
<div>
<i><span style="font-style:italic"></span></i>
</div>Website and A Chide's Alphabet
<br>
<a target="_blank" href="http://www.staplednapkin.org.uk">http://www.staplednapkin.org.uk</a>
<br>The Animal Subsides
<a target="_blank" href="http://www.arrowheadpress.co.uk/books/animal.html">http://www.arrowheadpress.co.uk/books/animal.html</a>
<br>Facebook:
<a target="_blank" href="http://www.facebook.com/david.bircumshaw">http://www.facebook.com/david.bircumshaw</a>
<br>Tumblr:
<a target="_blank" href="http://zantikus.tumblr.com/">http://zantikus.tumblr.com/</a>
<br>twitter:
<a target="_blank" href="http://twitter.com/bucketshave">http://twitter.com/bucketshave</a>
<br>blog:
<a target="_blank" href="http://groggydays.blogspot.com/">http://groggydays.blogspot.com/</a>
<br>Leicester Poetry Society:
<a target="_blank" href="http://www.poetryleicester.com">http://www.poetryleicester.com</a>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
------=_Part_4934_1075595581.1418656959196--
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2014 16:37:09 -0500
Reply-To: British & Irish poets <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: British & Irish poets <[log in to unmask]>
From: Mark Weiss <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: The wily Alex
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Message-ID: <[log in to unmask]>
<head><style>body{font-family: Geneva,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:9pt;background-color: #ffffff;color: black;}</style></head><body id="compText">I spent the month before the referendum and the two weeks after in Glasgow. This is decidedly not what I heard or saw.<br><br><blockquote style="padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 0px; border-left: #0000ff 2px solid; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-size: 10pt; font-family: arial,sans-serif; color: black;">-----Original Message-----
<br>From: Sean Carey <[log in to unmask]>
<br>Sent: Dec 15, 2014 10:22 AM
<br>To: [log in to unmask]
<br>Subject: The wily Alex
<br><br>Salmond assumes a lot and in his timing on the Yes or No vote miscalulated. The SNP is rooted in conservative thinking with their core support among well paid workers who would be happy to lose Labour or socialist thinking. It is their view that poverty is just a scam that they pay for with their taxes. They like the SNP because it rids them of Labour and English liberalism in a split from London. UKIP and the Celtic Nationalists are not and never were socialists. Their roots are in Italian 19th century nationalism. I see no trace of John MacLean in the SNP brand but a lot of Garibaldi.<br><br>Sent from AOL Mobile Mail<br><br><br>-----Original Message-----<br>From: David Bircumshaw <[log in to unmask]><br>To: BRITISH-IRISH-POETS <[log in to unmask]><br>Sent: Mon, Dec 15, 2014 01:01 iiAM<br>Subject: eRe: A Celtic Rainbow Coalition With Labour<br><br><br>
<div id="AOLMsgPart_2_7f376da0-f930-4bf7-862f-04c1c58b8082">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div>
<div>
Hi Sean
<br>
<br>
</div>perhaps I was too elliptical and even curt: what I fear is a right-wing coalition after the next election, with Cameron and Osborne at its heart, and Farage as comic turn. I know some SNP people, even possibly including Alex himself, think they maybe able to force a coalition with Labour, but I really can't see that happening. What I fear, I emphasise that verb, is a devil's pact between UKIP and the Tories, with the blessings of the puppetmasters in Washington. After all, the reality of British political life is our slow, unpleasant and inevitable Americanisation. Unum is lusting after the NHS etc.
<br>
<br>
</div>best
<br>
<br>
</div>Dave
<br>
</div>
<div class="aolmail_gmail_extra">
<br>
<div class="aolmail_gmail_quote">
On 14 December 2014 at 15:20, Sean Carey
<span dir="ltr"><<a target="_blank" href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>></span> wrote:
<blockquote class="aolmail_gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Is possible David but will the English in their current mood accept that to put Ed Miliband in number 10? The demands for cash from London would merely boost UKIP who could finish the conservatives as we knew them. The odd thing is that the SNP and the Welsh and Irish nationalists are well to the right of Miliband and David Cameron. Many of the Welsh and Irish policies on Europe are similar to UKIP's with the S.N.P. liable to ditch their pro E.U. stance. The position of the neo Unionist Democratic Unionist Party could leave them as the power-brokers next May. To support Miliband would be ok for Sinn Fein who will take their seats but harder for their bedfellows in the D.U.P.
<div>
<br>
</div>
<div>
So all kinds of rainbows could be seen in Westminister of hues not seen in many a generation. The referendum in Scotland instead of defining British history could end up breaking up the Union. But any nationalism cannot be expected to improve the lives of their poor in any nation state. The notion of UKIP that mass deportations will not be resisted is high risk lunacy. Nor can they expect the Asian communities to have laws imposed on them by UKIP or by a
</div>
<div>
celtic rainbow backed Labour government.
</div>
<div>
<br>
</div>
<div>
These are high risks times David. I hope reason will prevail rather than mass hysteria and indeed the retirement of Dennis Skinner is a sad event. His speech on the morning UKIP's Mark Reckless took his seat is one anyone interested in saving us all from populist nationalism should read in detail. These were the words of a man rooted in genuine internationalist socialism not into seeing those of other creeds or races as the main problem facing both Ireland and Britain. Rather than being the solution Mr Farage is now the most serious security risk to Britain seen since the 1930s.
</div>
<div>
Sent from AOL Mobile Mail
<br>
<br>
<br>-----Original Message-----
<br>From: David Bircumshaw <
<a target="_blank" href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>>
<br>To: BRITISH-IRISH-POETS <
<a target="_blank" href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>>
<br>Sent: Sun, Dec 14, 2014 04:25 AM
<br>Subject: Re: Douglas Oliver Continued
<br>
<br>
<br>
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div>
Sean
<br>
<br>The only thing I can say for definite about the next election is that the wonderful Dennis Skinner is standing down. In the shape of things, it should be a Labour landslide, but in the reality, with the lacklustre Ed Milliband at the helm, it ain't gonna be so. I do fear another coalition, thanks to the effects of UKIP and the opportunist Scots Nats. The Labour Party sold its soul to the devil when it opened out to Tony Blair, the road back is a long and possibly unattainable one. I can say, attest even, that I have dealings with my constituency Labour MP on my own and others behalf, and he and his staff have been little short of superb. It is at the national level things go wrong.
<br>
<br>
<br>
</div>Best
<br>
<br>
</div>Dave
<br>
</div>
<div>
<br>
<div>
On 13 December 2014 at 13:31, Sean Carey
<span dir="ltr"><<a target="_blank" href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>></span> wrote:
<blockquote style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
The early death of Douglas left a vacuum leaving us wonder where he would have gone in his work. I like Alice who seems to cross the poetic divides very well. If mention her to poets in the Salmon or Gallery Presses in Ireland they indeed know about her work. That would not apply to many other poets who write in her style.
<br>
<br>Some years ago Robert Creeley read in Bewley's Cafe in Dublin's Grafton Street and the poet who introduced him had never heard of him. This despite the fact that the same poet went on to edit and present poetry programmes for radio. So Alice being known is a tribute to her in that context.
<br>
<br>Often the mainstream likes to claim poets as English if they are an easy read as well as easy to teach. Indeed that applies in most poetic cultures. In this year of recalling World War One we had poetic groups looking to get their poet labeled as a "war poet" which meant admission to events, etc. But on that list were many easily read writers with others being ignored regardless of their actual war record.
<br>
<br>The power of Oliver for me is his grasp of what it means to grow up in England after a dreadful war destroyed so much. That of course means first the loss of lives as well as massive losses of vital services wlthin communities. To see England now go with the UKIP surge is depressing and the contempt for democratic structures. If UKIP hold the balance of power after May next year we are all on the edge of civil unrest. Any left wing party that agrees with UKIP on any issue should ditch that policy at once. A lot is at stake that took generations to build after another fascist surge led us into WW2. The likes of Douglas Oliver would barely recognise the English mood of 2014.
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>-----Original Message-----
<br>From:
<a target="_blank" href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>
<br>To: BRITISH-IRISH-POETS
<u></u>
<br>Sent: Sat, 13 Dec 2014 7:05
<br>Subject: Re: Douglas Oliver Continued
<br>
<br>
<div style="margin:0px;font-family:Tahoma,Verdana,Arial,Sans-Serif;font-size:12px;color:#000;background-color:#fff">
<pre style="font-size:9pt"><tt>The first time I read Oliver was Pearl and my reading of him went on from there.
Of course I agree about the quality of the early stuff but I would make a strong
case for the later as well - it was the later stuff that I read more thoroughly
because I was reviewing it in Terrible Work - what about Salvo for Africa - an
extraordinary work and one that should have got so much more notice and comment.
I never enjoyed Penniless Politics much but don't really know why - certainly
not because of the 'politics' - I think I found it a bit flat and too vague or
something, I must go back to it.
I don't really know what to say about your contention that Alice had a negative
writing influence on him. Their work still seemed to be very much their own to
me. I am a huge fan of Alice Notley's poetry and consider her to be one of the
very best so maybe that colours my view but could you to give a bit of detail
about that 'influence' - do you mean subject, style, both, or what? The only
thing I would say is that I think the general American influence helped to free
his work up a bit.
Cheers
Tim
On 12 Dec 2014, at 23:34, Sean Carey wrote:
> I would take the view now that "Penniless Politics" was not a total failure
yet I see it as a project that is a good example of an idea best left as an
idea. At that stage Douglas was living in America. "Poetry and Narrative In
Performance" proceeded it and his Paladin masterpiece emerged in 1990. For me
this is a classic as is "Kind" which takes in his work from 1969 onwards. Wendy
Mulford published "In the Cave of Suicession" in 1974. This work in its own way
is built on Oliver heading into an actual cave with a manual typewriter. What
emerged was a stunning poem I am amazed that is not seen as an epic in a multi
media sense. Lyrical and surreal and totally buzzing with rhythm. He captures so
much in this work to a degree rarely seen in poetry. It puts what he achieved in
"The Harmless Building" on to a new level.
>
> My point in a nutshell is that Oliver should have continued to explore rather
than perhaps listen too much to Alice Notley? His work and Notley's on
reflection prior to "Penniless Politics" were poles apart. She is a big hitter
in her own field Couples who write can often feel a shadow if either is more
acclaimed. It is a common problem all through literary history as are
relationships within poetic groups or circles literary. Often political parties
are lonely hearts clubs and journalists never stop being journalists. Oliver was
a working journalist for a lot of his life.
>
> The later works I feel while impressive never reached the heights of his
output in the Paladin and in "Kind". I see the shadow of Notley in the two final
books. A harsh judgement but one based on Oliver's own strengths.
>
> On a final note I regret Douglas did not value the Paul Buck driven writing
that was published in Curtains. Given that his own work covered many sexual
areas I never saw the logic of not recognising the advances made by Paul Buck.
>
</tt></pre>
<span class="aolmail_HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"> </font></span>
</div>
<span class="aolmail_HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"> </font></span>
</blockquote>
<span class="aolmail_HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"> </font></span>
</div>
<span class="aolmail_HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"> <br clear="all"> <br>-- <br>
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
David Joseph Bircumshaw
<br>
<div>
<i><span style="font-style:italic"></span></i>
</div>Website and A Chide's Alphabet
<br>
<a target="_blank" href="http://www.staplednapkin.org.uk">http://www.staplednapkin.org.uk</a>
<br>The Animal Subsides
<a target="_blank" href="http://www.arrowheadpress.co.uk/books/animal.html">http://www.arrowheadpress.co.uk/books/animal.html</a>
<br>Facebook:
<a target="_blank" href="http://www.facebook.com/david.bircumshaw">http://www.facebook.com/david.bircumshaw</a>
<br>Tumblr:
<a target="_blank" href="http://zantikus.tumblr.com/">http://zantikus.tumblr.com/</a>
<br>twitter:
<a target="_blank" href="http://twitter.com/bucketshave">http://twitter.com/bucketshave</a>
<br>blog:
<a target="_blank" href="http://groggydays.blogspot.com/">http://groggydays.blogspot.com/</a>
<br>Leicester Poetry Society:
<a target="_blank" href="http://www.poetryleicester.com">http://www.poetryleicester.com</a>
<br>
</div>
</div> </font></span>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br clear="all">
<br>--
<br>
<div class="aolmail_gmail_signature">
<div dir="ltr">
David Joseph Bircumshaw
<br>
<div>
<i><span style="font-style:italic"></span></i>
</div>Website and A Chide's Alphabet
<br>
<a target="_blank" href="http://www.staplednapkin.org.uk">http://www.staplednapkin.org.uk</a>
<br>The Animal Subsides
<a target="_blank" href="http://www.arrowheadpress.co.uk/books/animal.html">http://www.arrowheadpress.co.uk/books/animal.html</a>
<br>Facebook:
<a target="_blank" href="http://www.facebook.com/david.bircumshaw">http://www.facebook.com/david.bircumshaw</a>
<br>Tumblr:
<a target="_blank" href="http://zantikus.tumblr.com/">http://zantikus.tumblr.com/</a>
<br>twitter:
<a target="_blank" href="http://twitter.com/bucketshave">http://twitter.com/bucketshave</a>
<br>blog:
<a target="_blank" href="http://groggydays.blogspot.com/">http://groggydays.blogspot.com/</a>
<br>Leicester Poetry Society:
<a target="_blank" href="http://www.poetryleicester.com">http://www.poetryleicester.com</a>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<[log in to unmask]></blockquote></body>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2014 22:22:48 +0000
Reply-To: British & Irish poets <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: British & Irish poets <[log in to unmask]>
From: David Bircumshaw <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: The wily Alex
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1133c1022f09d3050a48b1d8
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--001a1133c1022f09d3050a48b1d8
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I'd like to know more about that Mark. My own position, not that I had a
vote in it, was one of turning from being very pro Scots Nats to something
like horror at the idea as it became clear to me the programme was to turn
Scotia into a corporate tax haven with a lot of golf courses for Donald
Trump and friends. Of course the tactics were to ween the votes off the
Glasgow dole queues because you could piss those losers off without fear of
reprisal once in nationhood power.
Several things come with capitalism: one, murder stories, Shakespeare knew
what he was doing in placing one in Jamie Stewart's wardrobe; another,
racism, we have seen just recently how Burma has been liberalised,
admittedly from the grasp of nutters, and immediately transported into the
joys of ethnic strife; finally one cannot thank the United States enough
for its efforts in implanting ethnic division throughout Europe, Woodrow
Wilson was a genius wasn't he? I was living in Birmingham in 1974 you know,
and I always thank our partners across the pond for their help in making
sure those bombs went off in the pubs, after all, where would the IRA have
been without thev almighty dollar? Please understand this isn't personal, I
don't for a moment think that either you or other US people on this list
have anything to do with this stuff, but your country does, just as mine
did when in imperial power.
Best, I mean that
Dave
On 15 December 2014 at 21:37, Mark Weiss <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> I spent the month before the referendum and the two weeks after in
> Glasgow. This is decidedly not what I heard or saw.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Sean Carey
> Sent: Dec 15, 2014 10:22 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: The wily Alex
>
> Salmond assumes a lot and in his timing on the Yes or No vote
> miscalulated. The SNP is rooted in conservative thinking with their core
> support among well paid workers who would be happy to lose Labour or
> socialist thinking. It is their view that poverty is just a scam that they
> pay for with their taxes. They like the SNP because it rids them of Labour
> and English liberalism in a split from London. UKIP and the Celtic
> Nationalists are not and never were socialists. Their roots are in Italian
> 19th century nationalism. I see no trace of John MacLean in the SNP brand
> but a lot of Garibaldi.
>
> Sent from AOL Mobile Mail
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: David Bircumshaw <[log in to unmask]>
> To: BRITISH-IRISH-POETS <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Mon, Dec 15, 2014 01:01 iiAM
> Subject: eRe: A Celtic Rainbow Coalition With Labour
>
>
> Hi Sean
>
> perhaps I was too elliptical and even curt: what I fear is a right-wing
> coalition after the next election, with Cameron and Osborne at its heart,
> and Farage as comic turn. I know some SNP people, even possibly including
> Alex himself, think they maybe able to force a coalition with Labour, but I
> really can't see that happening. What I fear, I emphasise that verb, is a
> devil's pact between UKIP and the Tories, with the blessings of the
> puppetmasters in Washington. After all, the reality of British political
> life is our slow, unpleasant and inevitable Americanisation. Unum is
> lusting after the NHS etc.
>
> best
>
> Dave
>
> On 14 December 2014 at 15:20, Sean Carey <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> Is possible David but will the English in their current mood accept that
> to put Ed Miliband in number 10? The demands for cash from London would
> merely boost UKIP who could finish the conservatives as we knew them. The
> odd thing is that the SNP and the Welsh and Irish nationalists are well to
> the right of Miliband and David Cameron. Many of the Welsh and Irish
> policies on Europe are similar to UKIP's with the S.N.P. liable to ditch
> their pro E.U. stance. The position of the neo Unionist Democratic Unionist
> Party could leave them as the power-brokers next May. To support Miliband
> would be ok for Sinn Fein who will take their seats but harder for their
> bedfellows in the D.U.P.
>
> So all kinds of rainbows could be seen in Westminister of hues not seen
> in many a generation. The referendum in Scotland instead of defining
> British history could end up breaking up the Union. But any nationalism
> cannot be expected to improve the lives of their poor in any nation state.
> The notion of UKIP that mass deportations will not be resisted is high risk
> lunacy. Nor can they expect the Asian communities to have laws imposed on
> them by UKIP or by a
> celtic rainbow backed Labour government.
>
> These are high risks times David. I hope reason will prevail rather than
> mass hysteria and indeed the retirement of Dennis Skinner is a sad event.
> His speech on the morning UKIP's Mark Reckless took his seat is one anyone
> interested in saving us all from populist nationalism should read in
> detail. These were the words of a man rooted in genuine internationalist
> socialism not into seeing those of other creeds or races as the main
> problem facing both Ireland and Britain. Rather than being the solution Mr
> Farage is now the most serious security risk to Britain seen since the
> 1930s.
> Sent from AOL Mobile Mail
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: David Bircumshaw < [log in to unmask]>
> To: BRITISH-IRISH-POETS < [log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Sun, Dec 14, 2014 04:25 AM
> Subject: Re: Douglas Oliver Continued
>
>
> Sean
>
> The only thing I can say for definite about the next election is that the
> wonderful Dennis Skinner is standing down. In the shape of things, it
> should be a Labour landslide, but in the reality, with the lacklustre Ed
> Milliband at the helm, it ain't gonna be so. I do fear another coalition,
> thanks to the effects of UKIP and the opportunist Scots Nats. The Labour
> Party sold its soul to the devil when it opened out to Tony Blair, the road
> back is a long and possibly unattainable one. I can say, attest even, that
> I have dealings with my constituency Labour MP on my own and others behalf,
> and he and his staff have been little short of superb. It is at the
> national level things go wrong.
>
>
> Best
>
> Dave
>
> On 13 December 2014 at 13:31, Sean Carey <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> The early death of Douglas left a vacuum leaving us wonder where he would
> have gone in his work. I like Alice who seems to cross the poetic divides
> very well. If mention her to poets in the Salmon or Gallery Presses in
> Ireland they indeed know about her work. That would not apply to many other
> poets who write in her style.
>
> Some years ago Robert Creeley read in Bewley's Cafe in Dublin's Grafton
> Street and the poet who introduced him had never heard of him. This despite
> the fact that the same poet went on to edit and present poetry programmes
> for radio. So Alice being known is a tribute to her in that context.
>
> Often the mainstream likes to claim poets as English if they are an easy
> read as well as easy to teach. Indeed that applies in most poetic cultures.
> In this year of recalling World War One we had poetic groups looking to get
> their poet labeled as a "war poet" which meant admission to events, etc.
> But on that list were many easily read writers with others being ignored
> regardless of their actual war record.
>
> The power of Oliver for me is his grasp of what it means to grow up in
> England after a dreadful war destroyed so much. That of course means first
> the loss of lives as well as massive losses of vital services wlthin
> communities. To see England now go with the UKIP surge is depressing and
> the contempt for democratic structures. If UKIP hold the balance of power
> after May next year we are all on the edge of civil unrest. Any left wing
> party that agrees with UKIP on any issue should ditch that policy at once.
> A lot is at stake that took generations to build after another fascist
> surge led us into WW2. The likes of Douglas Oliver would barely recognise
> the English mood of 2014.
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [log in to unmask]
> To: BRITISH-IRISH-POETS
> Sent: Sat, 13 Dec 2014 7:05
> Subject: Re: Douglas Oliver Continued
>
> The first time I read Oliver was Pearl and my reading of him went on from there.
> Of course I agree about the quality of the early stuff but I would make a strong
> case for the later as well - it was the later stuff that I read more thoroughly
> because I was reviewing it in Terrible Work - what about Salvo for Africa - an
> extraordinary work and one that should have got so much more notice and comment.
> I never enjoyed Penniless Politics much but don't really know why - certainly
> not because of the 'politics' - I think I found it a bit flat and too vague or
> something, I must go back to it.
>
> I don't really know what to say about your contention that Alice had a negative
> writing influence on him. Their work still seemed to be very much their own to
> me. I am a huge fan of Alice Notley's poetry and consider her to be one of the
> very best so maybe that colours my view but could you to give a bit of detail
> about that 'influence' - do you mean subject, style, both, or what? The only
> thing I would say is that I think the general American influence helped to free
> his work up a bit.
>
> Cheers
>
> Tim
>
> On 12 Dec 2014, at 23:34, Sean Carey wrote:
>
> > I would take the view now that "Penniless Politics" was not a total failure
> yet I see it as a project that is a good example of an idea best left as an
> idea. At that stage Douglas was living in America. "Poetry and Narrative In
> Performance" proceeded it and his Paladin masterpiece emerged in 1990. For me
> this is a classic as is "Kind" which takes in his work from 1969 onwards. Wendy
> Mulford published "In the Cave of Suicession" in 1974. This work in its own way
> is built on Oliver heading into an actual cave with a manual typewriter. What
> emerged was a stunning poem I am amazed that is not seen as an epic in a multi
> media sense. Lyrical and surreal and totally buzzing with rhythm. He captures so
> much in this work to a degree rarely seen in poetry. It puts what he achieved in
> "The Harmless Building" on to a new level.
> >
> > My point in a nutshell is that Oliver should have continued to explore rather
> than perhaps listen too much to Alice Notley? His work and Notley's on
> reflection prior to "Penniless Politics" were poles apart. She is a big hitter
> in her own field Couples who write can often feel a shadow if either is more
> acclaimed. It is a common problem all through literary history as are
> relationships within poetic groups or circles literary. Often political parties
> are lonely hearts clubs and journalists never stop being journalists. Oliver was
> a working journalist for a lot of his life.
> >
> > The later works I feel while impressive never reached the heights of his
> output in the Paladin and in "Kind". I see the shadow of Notley in the two final
> books. A harsh judgement but one based on Oliver's own strengths.
> >
> > On a final note I regret Douglas did not value the Paul Buck driven writing
> that was published in Curtains. Given that his own work covered many sexual
> areas I never saw the logic of not recognising the advances made by Paul Buck.
> >
>
>
>
> --
> David Joseph Bircumshaw
> Website and A Chide's Alphabet
> http://www.staplednapkin.org.uk
> The Animal Subsides http://www.arrowheadpress.co.uk/books/animal.html
> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/david.bircumshaw
> Tumblr: http://zantikus.tumblr.com/
> twitter: http://twitter.com/bucketshave
> blog: http://groggydays.blogspot.com/
> Leicester Poetry Society: http://www.poetryleicester.com
>
>
>
> --
> David Joseph Bircumshaw
> Website and A Chide's Alphabet
> http://www.staplednapkin.org.uk
> The Animal Subsides http://www.arrowheadpress.co.uk/books/animal.html
> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/david.bircumshaw
> Tumblr: http://zantikus.tumblr.com/
> twitter: http://twitter.com/bucketshave
> blog: http://groggydays.blogspot.com/
> Leicester Poetry Society: http://www.poetryleicester.com
>
>
--
David Joseph Bircumshaw
Website and A Chide's Alphabet
http://www.staplednapkin.org.uk
The Animal Subsides http://www.arrowheadpress.co.uk/books/animal.html
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/david.bircumshaw
Tumblr: http://zantikus.tumblr.com/
twitter: http://twitter.com/bucketshave
blog: http://groggydays.blogspot.com/
Leicester Poetry Society: http://www.poetryleicester.com
--001a1133c1022f09d3050a48b1d8
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div><div>I'd like to know more about that Mark. =
My own position, not that I had a vote in it, was one of turning from being=
very pro Scots Nats to something like horror at the idea as it became clea=
r to me the programme was to turn Scotia into a corporate tax haven with a =
lot of golf courses for Donald Trump and friends. Of course the tactics wer=
e to ween the votes off the Glasgow dole queues because you could piss thos=
e losers off without fear of reprisal once in nationhood power. <br><br></d=
iv>Several things come with capitalism: one, murder stories, Shakespeare kn=
ew what he was doing in placing one in Jamie Stewart's wardrobe; anothe=
r, racism, we have seen just recently how Burma has been liberalised, admit=
tedly from the grasp of nutters, and immediately transported into the joys =
of ethnic strife; finally one cannot thank the United States enough for its=
efforts in implanting ethnic division throughout Europe, Woodrow Wilson wa=
s a genius wasn't he? I was living in Birmingham in 1974 you know, and =
I always thank our partners across the pond for their help in making sure t=
hose bombs went off in the pubs, after all, where would the IRA have been w=
ithout thev almighty dollar? Please understand this isn't personal, I d=
on't for a moment think that either you or other US people on this list=
have anything to do with this stuff, but your country does, just as mine d=
id when in imperial power.<br><br></div>Best, I mean that<br><br></div>Dave=
<br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 15 Decembe=
r 2014 at 21:37, Mark Weiss <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:junctio=
[log in to unmask]" target=3D"_blank">[log in to unmask]</a>></span> wr=
ote:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-lef=
t:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div>I spent the month before the refere=
ndum and the two weeks after in Glasgow. This is decidedly not what I heard=
or saw.<div><div><br><br><blockquote style=3D"padding-left:5px;margin-left=
:0px;border-left:#0000ff 2px solid;font-weight:normal;font-style:normal;tex=
t-decoration:none;font-size:10pt;font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:black">=
-----Original Message-----
<br>From: Sean Carey <u></u>
<br>Sent: Dec 15, 2014 10:22 AM
<br>To: <a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" target=3D"_bl=
ank">[log in to unmask]</a>
<br>Subject: The wily Alex
<br><br>Salmond assumes a lot and in his timing on the Yes or No vote misca=
lulated. The SNP is rooted in conservative thinking with their core support=
among well paid workers who would be happy to lose Labour or socialist thi=
nking. It is their view that poverty is just a scam that they pay for with =
their taxes. They like the SNP because it rids them of Labour and English l=
iberalism in a split from London. UKIP and the Celtic Nationalists are not =
and never were socialists. Their roots are in Italian 19th century national=
ism. I see no trace of John MacLean in the SNP brand but a lot of Garibaldi=
.<br><br>Sent from AOL Mobile Mail<br><br><br>-----Original Message-----<br=
>From: David Bircumshaw <<a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">[log in to unmask]</a>><br>To: BRITISH-IRISH-POET=
S <<a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" target=3D"_blan=
k">[log in to unmask]</a>><br>Sent: Mon, Dec 15, 2014 01=
:01 iiAM<br>Subject: eRe: A Celtic Rainbow Coalition With Labour<br><br><br=
>
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div>
<div>
<div>
Hi Sean
<br>
<br>
</div>perhaps I was too elliptical and even curt: what I fear is a righ=
t-wing coalition after the next election, with Cameron and Osborne at its h=
eart, and Farage as comic turn. I know some SNP people, even possibly inclu=
ding Alex himself, think they maybe able to force a coalition with Labour, =
but I really can't see that happening. What I fear, I emphasise that ve=
rb, is a devil's pact between UKIP and the Tories, with the blessings o=
f the puppetmasters in Washington. After all, the reality of British politi=
cal life is our slow, unpleasant and inevitable Americanisation. Unum is lu=
sting after the NHS etc.
<br>
<br>
</div>best
<br>
<br>
</div>Dave
<br>
</div>
<div>
<br>
<div>
On 14 December 2014 at 15:20, Sean Carey=20
<span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" target=3D=
"_blank">[log in to unmask]</a>></span> wrote:
<blockquote style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;paddin=
g-left:1ex">
Is possible David but will the English in their current mood accept that to=
put Ed Miliband in number 10? The demands for cash from London would merel=
y boost UKIP who could finish the conservatives as we knew them. The odd th=
ing is that the SNP and the Welsh and Irish nationalists are well to the ri=
ght of Miliband and David Cameron. Many of the Welsh and Irish policies on =
Europe are similar to UKIP's with the S.N.P. liable to ditch their pro =
E.U. stance. The position of the neo Unionist Democratic Unionist Party cou=
ld leave them as the power-brokers next May. To support Miliband would be o=
k for Sinn Fein who will take their seats but harder for their bedfellows i=
n the D.U.P.=C2=A0
<div>
<br>
</div>
<div>
So all kinds of rainbows could be seen in Westminister of hues not seen in =
many a generation. The referendum in Scotland instead of defining British h=
istory could end up breaking up the Union. But any nationalism cannot be ex=
pected to improve the lives of their poor in any nation state. The notion o=
f UKIP that mass deportations will not be resisted is high risk lunacy. Nor=
can they expect the Asian communities to have laws imposed on them by UKIP=
or by a=C2=A0
</div>
<div>
celtic rainbow backed Labour government.=C2=A0
</div>
<div>
<br>
</div>
<div>
These are high risks times David. I hope reason will prevail rather than ma=
ss hysteria and indeed the retirement of Dennis Skinner is a sad event. His=
speech on the morning UKIP's Mark Reckless took his seat is one anyone=
interested in saving us all from populist nationalism should read in detai=
l. These were the words of a man rooted in genuine internationalist sociali=
sm not into seeing those of other creeds or races as the main problem facin=
g both Ireland and Britain. Rather than being the solution Mr Farage is now=
the most serious security risk to Britain seen since the 1930s.
</div>
<div>
Sent from AOL Mobile Mail
<br>
<br>
<br>-----Original Message-----
<br>From: David Bircumshaw <
<a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" target=3D"_blank">cheepst=
[log in to unmask]</a>>
<br>To: BRITISH-IRISH-POETS <
<a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" target=3D"_blank=
">[log in to unmask]</a>>
<br>Sent: Sun, Dec 14, 2014 04:25 AM
<br>Subject: Re: Douglas Oliver Continued
<br>
<br>
<br>=20
<div>=20
<div dir=3D"ltr">=20
<div>=20
<div>
Sean=20
<br>=20
<br>The only thing I can say for definite about the next election =
is that the wonderful Dennis Skinner is standing down. In the shape of thin=
gs, it should be a Labour landslide, but in the reality, with the lacklustr=
e Ed Milliband at the helm, it ain't gonna be so. I do fear another coa=
lition, thanks to the effects of UKIP and the opportunist Scots Nats. The L=
abour Party sold its soul to the devil when it opened out to Tony Blair, th=
e road back is a long and possibly unattainable one. I can say, attest even=
, that I have dealings with my constituency Labour MP on my own and others =
behalf, and he and his staff have been little short of superb. It is at the=
national level things go wrong.=20
<br>=20
<br>=20
<br>=20
</div>Best=20
<br>=20
<br>=20
</div>Dave=20
<br>=20
</div>=20
<div>=20
<br>=20
<div>
On 13 December 2014 at 13:31, Sean Carey=20
<span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" targ=
et=3D"_blank">[log in to unmask]</a>></span> wrote:=20
<blockquote style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;p=
adding-left:1ex">
The early death of Douglas left a vacuum leaving us wonder where he would =
have gone in his work. I like Alice who seems to cross the poetic divides v=
ery well. If mention her to poets in the Salmon or Gallery Presses in Irela=
nd they indeed know about her work. That would not apply to many other poet=
s who write in her style.=20
<br>=20
<br>Some years ago Robert Creeley read in Bewley's Cafe in Dub=
lin's Grafton Street and the poet who introduced him had never heard of=
him. This despite the fact that the same poet went on to edit and present =
poetry programmes for radio. So Alice being known is a tribute to her in th=
at context.=20
<br>=20
<br>Often the mainstream likes to claim poets as English if they a=
re an easy read as well as easy to teach. Indeed that applies in most poeti=
c cultures. In this year of recalling World War One we had poetic groups lo=
oking to get their poet labeled as a "war poet" which meant admis=
sion to events, etc. But on that list were many easily read writers with ot=
hers being ignored regardless of their actual war record.=20
<br>=20
<br>The power of Oliver for me is his grasp of what it means to gr=
ow up in England after a dreadful war destroyed so much. That of course mea=
ns first the loss of lives as well as massive losses of vital services wlth=
in communities. To see England now go with the UKIP surge is depressing and=
the contempt for democratic structures. If UKIP hold the balance of power =
after May next year we are all on the edge of civil unrest. Any left wing p=
arty that agrees with UKIP on any issue should ditch that policy at once. A=
lot is at stake that took generations to build after another fascist surge=
led us into WW2. The likes of Douglas Oliver would barely recognise the En=
glish mood of 2014.=20
<br>=20
<br>=20
<br>=20
<br>=20
<br>-----Original Message-----=20
<br>From:=20
<a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" target=3D"_blank">tallentw@AOL=
.COM</a>=20
<br>To: BRITISH-IRISH-POETS=20
<u></u>=20
<br>Sent: Sat, 13 Dec 2014 7:05=20
<br>Subject: Re: Douglas Oliver Continued=20
<br>=20
<br>=20
<div style=3D"margin:0px;font-family:Tahoma,Verdana,Arial,Sans-Ser=
if;font-size:12px;color:#000;background-color:#fff">=20
<pre style=3D"font-size:9pt"><tt>The first time I read Oliver was=
Pearl and my reading of him went on from there.=20
Of course I agree about the quality of the early stuff but I would make a s=
trong=20
case for the later as well - it was the later stuff that I read more thorou=
ghly=20
because I was reviewing it in Terrible Work - what about Salvo for Africa -=
an=20
extraordinary work and one that should have got so much more notice and com=
ment.=20
I never enjoyed Penniless Politics much but don't really know why - cer=
tainly=20
not because of the 'politics' - I think I found it a bit flat and t=
oo vague or=20
something, I must go back to it.
I don't really know what to say about your contention that Alice had a =
negative=20
writing influence on him. Their work still seemed to be very much their own=
to=20
me. I am a huge fan of Alice Notley's poetry and consider her to be one=
of the=20
very best so maybe that colours my view but could you to give a bit of deta=
il=20
about that 'influence' - do you mean subject, style, both, or what=
? The only=20
thing I would say is that I think the general American influence helped to =
free=20
his work up a bit.
Cheers
Tim
On 12 Dec 2014, at 23:34, Sean Carey wrote:
> I would take the view now that "Penniless Politics" was not =
a total failure=20
yet I see it as a project that is a good example of an idea best left as an=
=20
idea. At that stage Douglas was living in America. "Poetry and Narrati=
ve In=20
Performance" proceeded it and his Paladin masterpiece emerged in 1990.=
For me=20
this is a classic as is "Kind" which takes in his work from 1969 =
onwards. Wendy=20
Mulford published "In the Cave of Suicession" in 1974. This work =
in its own way=20
is built on Oliver heading into an actual cave with a manual typewriter. Wh=
at=20
emerged was a stunning poem I am amazed that is not seen as an epic in a mu=
lti=20
media sense. Lyrical and surreal and totally buzzing with rhythm. He captur=
es so=20
much in this work to a degree rarely seen in poetry. It puts what he achiev=
ed in=20
"The Harmless Building" on to a new level.
>=20
> My point in a nutshell is that Oliver should have continued to explore=
rather=20
than perhaps listen too much to Alice Notley? His work and Notley's on=
=20
reflection prior to "Penniless Politics" were poles apart. She is=
a big hitter=20
in her own field Couples who write can often feel a shadow if either is mor=
e=20
acclaimed. It is a common problem all through literary history as are=20
relationships within poetic groups or circles literary. Often political par=
ties=20
are lonely hearts clubs and journalists never stop being journalists. Olive=
r was=20
a working journalist for a lot of his life.
>=20
> The later works I feel while impressive never reached the heights of h=
is=20
output in the Paladin and in "Kind". I see the shadow of Notley i=
n the two final=20
books. A harsh judgement but one based on Oliver's own strengths.
>=20
> On a final note I regret Douglas did not value the Paul Buck driven wr=
iting=20
that was published in Curtains. Given that his own work covered many sexual=
=20
areas I never saw the logic of not recognising the advances made by Paul Bu=
ck.
>=20
</tt></pre>
<span><font color=3D"#888888"> </font></span>
</div>
<span><font color=3D"#888888"> </font></span>
</blockquote>
<span><font color=3D"#888888"> </font></span>
</div>
<span><font color=3D"#888888"> <br clear=3D"all"> <br>-- <br>=20
<div>=20
<div dir=3D"ltr">
David Joseph Bircumshaw=20
<br>=20
<div>=20
<i><span style=3D"font-style:italic"></span></i>=20
</div>Website and A Chide's Alphabet=20
<br>=20
<a href=3D"http://www.staplednapkin.org.uk" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tp://www.staplednapkin.org.uk</a>=20
<br>The Animal Subsides=20
<a href=3D"http://www.arrowheadpress.co.uk/books/animal.html" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">http://www.arrowheadpress.co.uk/books/animal.html</a>=20
<br>Facebook:=20
<a href=3D"http://www.facebook.com/david.bircumshaw" target=3D"_=
blank">http://www.facebook.com/david.bircumshaw</a>=20
<br>Tumblr:=20
<a href=3D"http://zantikus.tumblr.com/" target=3D"_blank">http:/=
/zantikus.tumblr.com/</a>=20
<br>twitter:=20
<a href=3D"http://twitter.com/bucketshave" target=3D"_blank">htt=
p://twitter.com/bucketshave</a>=20
<br>blog:=20
<a href=3D"http://groggydays.blogspot.com/" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tp://groggydays.blogspot.com/</a>=20
<br>Leicester Poetry Society:=20
<a href=3D"http://www.poetryleicester.com" target=3D"_blank">htt=
p://www.poetryleicester.com</a>=20
<br>=20
</div>=20
</div> </font></span>
</div>=20
</div>=20
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br clear=3D"all">
<br>--=20
<br>
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
David Joseph Bircumshaw
<br>
<div>
<i><span style=3D"font-style:italic"></span></i>
</div>Website and A Chide's Alphabet
<br>
<a href=3D"http://www.staplednapkin.org.uk" target=3D"_blank">http://ww=
w.staplednapkin.org.uk</a>=20
<br>The Animal Subsides=20
<a href=3D"http://www.arrowheadpress.co.uk/books/animal.html" target=3D=
"_blank">http://www.arrowheadpress.co.uk/books/animal.html</a>
<br>Facebook:=20
<a href=3D"http://www.facebook.com/david.bircumshaw" target=3D"_blank">=
http://www.facebook.com/david.bircumshaw</a>
<br>Tumblr:=20
<a href=3D"http://zantikus.tumblr.com/" target=3D"_blank">http://zantik=
us.tumblr.com/</a>
<br>twitter:=20
<a href=3D"http://twitter.com/bucketshave" target=3D"_blank">http://twi=
tter.com/bucketshave</a>
<br>blog:=20
<a href=3D"http://groggydays.blogspot.com/" target=3D"_blank">http://gr=
oggydays.blogspot.com/</a>
<br>Leicester Poetry Society:=20
<a href=3D"http://www.poetryleicester.com" target=3D"_blank">http://www=
.poetryleicester.com</a>
<br>
</div>
</div>=20
</div>=20
</div>
<u></u></blockquote></div></div></div>
</blockquote></div><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><div><div dir=3D"ltr">David=
Joseph Bircumshaw<br><div><i><span style=3D"font-style:italic"></span></i>=
</div>Website and A Chide's Alphabet<br><a href=3D"http://www.stapledna=
pkin.org.uk" target=3D"_blank">http://www.staplednapkin.org.uk</a> <br>The =
Animal Subsides <a href=3D"http://www.arrowheadpress.co.uk/books/animal.htm=
l" target=3D"_blank">http://www.arrowheadpress.co.uk/books/animal.html</a><=
br>Facebook: <a href=3D"http://www.facebook.com/david.bircumshaw" target=3D=
"_blank">http://www.facebook.com/david.bircumshaw</a><br>Tumblr: <a href=3D=
"http://zantikus.tumblr.com/" target=3D"_blank">http://zantikus.tumblr.com/=
</a><br>twitter: <a href=3D"http://twitter.com/bucketshave" target=3D"_blan=
k">http://twitter.com/bucketshave</a><br>blog: <a href=3D"http://groggydays=
.blogspot.com/" target=3D"_blank">http://groggydays.blogspot.com/</a><br>Le=
icester Poetry Society: <a href=3D"http://www.poetryleicester.com" target=
=3D"_blank">http://www.poetryleicester.com</a><br></div></div>
</div></div>
--001a1133c1022f09d3050a48b1d8--
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2014 17:57:03 -0500
Reply-To: British & Irish poets <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: British & Irish poets <[log in to unmask]>
From: Mark Weiss <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: The wily Alex
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Message-ID: <[log in to unmask]>
<head><style>body{font-family: Geneva,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:=
9pt;background-color: #ffffff;color: black;}</style></head><body id=3D"comp=
Text">I know you do, Dave. But that's a pretty heavy oversimplifi8cation. I=
'll leave it for others to unravel further, if they've a mind to. <br><br>R=
e: the IRA. Not so much US policy as turning something of a blind eye, for =
reasons of internal politics. As, in addition, winking at the alliance betw=
een jewish terrorist groups in mandate Palestine and the IRA, on the theory=
that the enemy of my enemy is my friend.<br><br><br><br><blockquote style=
=3D"padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 0px; border-left: #0000ff 2px solid; fo=
nt-weight: normal; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-size: 10=
pt; font-family: arial,sans-serif; color: black;">-----Original Message----=
-
<br>From: David Bircumshaw <[log in to unmask]>
<br>Sent: Dec 15, 2014 5:22 PM
<br>To: [log in to unmask]
<br>Subject: Re: The wily Alex
<br><br><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div><div>I'd like to know more about that Ma=
rk. My own position, not that I had a vote in it, was one of turning from b=
eing very pro Scots Nats to something like horror at the idea as it became =
clear to me the programme was to turn Scotia into a corporate tax haven wit=
h a lot of golf courses for Donald Trump and friends. Of course the tactics=
were to ween the votes off the Glasgow dole queues because you could piss =
those losers off without fear of reprisal once in nationhood power. <br><br=
></div>Several things come with capitalism: one, murder stories, Shakespear=
e knew what he was doing in placing one in Jamie Stewart's wardrobe; anothe=
r, racism, we have seen just recently how Burma has been liberalised, admit=
tedly from the grasp of nutters, and immediately transported into the joys =
of ethnic strife; finally one cannot thank the United States enough for its=
efforts in implanting ethnic division throughout Europe, Woodrow Wilson wa=
s a genius wasn't he? I was living in Birmingham in 1974 you know, and I al=
ways thank our partners across the pond for their help in making sure those=
bombs went off in the pubs, after all, where would the IRA have been witho=
ut thev almighty dollar? Please understand this isn't personal, I don't for=
a moment think that either you or other US people on this list have anythi=
ng to do with this stuff, but your country does, just as mine did when in i=
mperial power.<br><br></div>Best, I mean that<br><br></div>Dave<br><div cla=
ss=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 15 December 2014 at 21=
:37, Mark Weiss <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:j=
[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>></span> wrote:<blockqu=
ote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc s=
olid;padding-left:1ex"><div>I spent the month before the referendum and the=
two weeks after in Glasgow. This is decidedly not what I heard or saw.<div=
><div><br><br><blockquote style=3D"padding-left:5px;margin-left:0px;border-=
left:#0000ff 2px solid;font-weight:normal;font-style:normal;text-decoration=
:none;font-size:10pt;font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:black">-----Origina=
l Message-----
<br>From: Sean Carey <u></u>
<br>Sent: Dec 15, 2014 10:22 AM
<br>To: <a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]
.UK">[log in to unmask]</a>
<br>Subject: The wily Alex
<br><br>Salmond assumes a lot and in his timing on the Yes or No vote misca=
lulated. The SNP is rooted in conservative thinking with their core support=
among well paid workers who would be happy to lose Labour or socialist thi=
nking. It is their view that poverty is just a scam that they pay for with =
their taxes. They like the SNP because it rids them of Labour and English l=
iberalism in a split from London. UKIP and the Celtic Nationalists are not =
and never were socialists. Their roots are in Italian 19th century national=
ism. I see no trace of John MacLean in the SNP brand but a lot of Garibaldi=
.<br><br>Sent from AOL Mobile Mail<br><br><br>-----Original Message-----<br=
>From: David Bircumshaw <<a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:cheepstuff@=
GOOGLEMAIL.COM">[log in to unmask]</a>><br>To: BRITISH-IRISH-POET=
S <<a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]
K">[log in to unmask]</a>><br>Sent: Mon, Dec 15, 2014 01=
:01 iiAM<br>Subject: eRe: A Celtic Rainbow Coalition With Labour<br><br><br=
>
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div>
<div>
<div>
Hi Sean
<br>
<br>
</div>perhaps I was too elliptical and even curt: what I fear is a righ=
t-wing coalition after the next election, with Cameron and Osborne at its h=
eart, and Farage as comic turn. I know some SNP people, even possibly inclu=
ding Alex himself, think they maybe able to force a coalition with Labour, =
but I really can't see that happening. What I fear, I emphasise that verb, =
is a devil's pact between UKIP and the Tories, with the blessings of the pu=
ppetmasters in Washington. After all, the reality of British political life=
is our slow, unpleasant and inevitable Americanisation. Unum is lusting af=
ter the NHS etc.
<br>
<br>
</div>best
<br>
<br>
</div>Dave
<br>
</div>
<div>
<br>
<div>
On 14 December 2014 at 15:20, Sean Carey=20
<span dir=3D"ltr"><<a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:sean.carey1@ao=
l.co.uk">[log in to unmask]</a>></span> wrote:
<blockquote style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;paddin=
g-left:1ex">
Is possible David but will the English in their current mood accept that to=
put Ed Miliband in number 10? The demands for cash from London would merel=
y boost UKIP who could finish the conservatives as we knew them. The odd th=
ing is that the SNP and the Welsh and Irish nationalists are well to the ri=
ght of Miliband and David Cameron. Many of the Welsh and Irish policies on =
Europe are similar to UKIP's with the S.N.P. liable to ditch their pro E.U.=
stance. The position of the neo Unionist Democratic Unionist Party could l=
eave them as the power-brokers next May. To support Miliband would be ok fo=
r Sinn Fein who will take their seats but harder for their bedfellows in th=
e D.U.P.
<div>
<br>
</div>
<div>
So all kinds of rainbows could be seen in Westminister of hues not seen in =
many a generation. The referendum in Scotland instead of defining British h=
istory could end up breaking up the Union. But any nationalism cannot be ex=
pected to improve the lives of their poor in any nation state. The notion o=
f UKIP that mass deportations will not be resisted is high risk lunacy. Nor=
can they expect the Asian communities to have laws imposed on them by UKIP=
or by a
</div>
<div>
celtic rainbow backed Labour government.
</div>
<div>
<br>
</div>
<div>
These are high risks times David. I hope reason will prevail rather than ma=
ss hysteria and indeed the retirement of Dennis Skinner is a sad event. His=
speech on the morning UKIP's Mark Reckless took his seat is one anyone int=
erested in saving us all from populist nationalism should read in detail. T=
hese were the words of a man rooted in genuine internationalist socialism n=
ot into seeing those of other creeds or races as the main problem facing bo=
th Ireland and Britain. Rather than being the solution Mr Farage is now the=
most serious security risk to Britain seen since the 1930s.
</div>
<div>
Sent from AOL Mobile Mail
<br>
<br>
<br>-----Original Message-----
<br>From: David Bircumshaw <
<a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">cheepst=
[log in to unmask]</a>>
<br>To: BRITISH-IRISH-POETS <
<a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]
">[log in to unmask]</a>>
<br>Sent: Sun, Dec 14, 2014 04:25 AM
<br>Subject: Re: Douglas Oliver Continued
<br>
<br>
<br>=20
<div>=20
<div dir=3D"ltr">=20
<div>=20
<div>
Sean=20
<br>=20
<br>The only thing I can say for definite about the next election =
is that the wonderful Dennis Skinner is standing down. In the shape of thin=
gs, it should be a Labour landslide, but in the reality, with the lacklustr=
e Ed Milliband at the helm, it ain't gonna be so. I do fear another coaliti=
on, thanks to the effects of UKIP and the opportunist Scots Nats. The Labou=
r Party sold its soul to the devil when it opened out to Tony Blair, the ro=
ad back is a long and possibly unattainable one. I can say, attest even, th=
at I have dealings with my constituency Labour MP on my own and others beha=
lf, and he and his staff have been little short of superb. It is at the nat=
ional level things go wrong.=20
<br>=20
<br>=20
<br>=20
</div>Best=20
<br>=20
<br>=20
</div>Dave=20
<br>=20
</div>=20
<div>=20
<br>=20
<div>
On 13 December 2014 at 13:31, Sean Carey=20
<span dir=3D"ltr"><<a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:sean.care=
[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>></span> wrote:=20
<blockquote style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;p=
adding-left:1ex">
The early death of Douglas left a vacuum leaving us wonder where he would =
have gone in his work. I like Alice who seems to cross the poetic divides v=
ery well. If mention her to poets in the Salmon or Gallery Presses in Irela=
nd they indeed know about her work. That would not apply to many other poet=
s who write in her style.=20
<br>=20
<br>Some years ago Robert Creeley read in Bewley's Cafe in Dublin'=
s Grafton Street and the poet who introduced him had never heard of him. Th=
is despite the fact that the same poet went on to edit and present poetry p=
rogrammes for radio. So Alice being known is a tribute to her in that conte=
xt.=20
<br>=20
<br>Often the mainstream likes to claim poets as English if they a=
re an easy read as well as easy to teach. Indeed that applies in most poeti=
c cultures. In this year of recalling World War One we had poetic groups lo=
oking to get their poet labeled as a "war poet" which meant admission to ev=
ents, etc. But on that list were many easily read writers with others being=
ignored regardless of their actual war record.=20
<br>=20
<br>The power of Oliver for me is his grasp of what it means to gr=
ow up in England after a dreadful war destroyed so much. That of course mea=
ns first the loss of lives as well as massive losses of vital services wlth=
in communities. To see England now go with the UKIP surge is depressing and=
the contempt for democratic structures. If UKIP hold the balance of power =
after May next year we are all on the edge of civil unrest. Any left wing p=
arty that agrees with UKIP on any issue should ditch that policy at once. A=
lot is at stake that took generations to build after another fascist surge=
led us into WW2. The likes of Douglas Oliver would barely recognise the En=
glish mood of 2014.=20
<br>=20
<br>=20
<br>=20
<br>=20
<br>-----Original Message-----=20
<br>From:=20
<a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">tallentw@AOL=
.COM</a>=20
<br>To: BRITISH-IRISH-POETS=20
<u></u>=20
<br>Sent: Sat, 13 Dec 2014 7:05=20
<br>Subject: Re: Douglas Oliver Continued=20
<br>=20
<br>=20
<div style=3D"margin:0px;font-family:Tahoma,Verdana,Arial,Sans-Ser=
if;font-size:12px;color:#000;background-color:#fff">=20
<pre style=3D"font-size:9pt"><tt>The first time I read Oliver was=
Pearl and my reading of him went on from there.=20
Of course I agree about the quality of the early stuff but I would make a s=
trong=20
case for the later as well - it was the later stuff that I read more thorou=
ghly=20
because I was reviewing it in Terrible Work - what about Salvo for Africa -=
an=20
extraordinary work and one that should have got so much more notice and com=
ment.=20
I never enjoyed Penniless Politics much but don't really know why - certain=
ly=20
not because of the 'politics' - I think I found it a bit flat and too vague=
or=20
something, I must go back to it.
I don't really know what to say about your contention that Alice had a nega=
tive=20
writing influence on him. Their work still seemed to be very much their own=
to=20
me. I am a huge fan of Alice Notley's poetry and consider her to be one of =
the=20
very best so maybe that colours my view but could you to give a bit of deta=
il=20
about that 'influence' - do you mean subject, style, both, or what? The on=
ly=20
thing I would say is that I think the general American influence helped to =
free=20
his work up a bit.
Cheers
Tim
On 12 Dec 2014, at 23:34, Sean Carey wrote:
> I would take the view now that "Penniless Politics" was not a total fa=
ilure=20
yet I see it as a project that is a good example of an idea best left as an=
=20
idea. At that stage Douglas was living in America. "Poetry and Narrative In=
=20
Performance" proceeded it and his Paladin masterpiece emerged in 1990. For =
me=20
this is a classic as is "Kind" which takes in his work from 1969 onwards. W=
endy=20
Mulford published "In the Cave of Suicession" in 1974. This work in its own=
way=20
is built on Oliver heading into an actual cave with a manual typewriter. Wh=
at=20
emerged was a stunning poem I am amazed that is not seen as an epic in a mu=
lti=20
media sense. Lyrical and surreal and totally buzzing with rhythm. He captur=
es so=20
much in this work to a degree rarely seen in poetry. It puts what he achiev=
ed in=20
"The Harmless Building" on to a new level.
>=20
> My point in a nutshell is that Oliver should have continued to explore=
rather=20
than perhaps listen too much to Alice Notley? His work and Notley's on=20
reflection prior to "Penniless Politics" were poles apart. She is a big hit=
ter=20
in her own field Couples who write can often feel a shadow if either is mor=
e=20
acclaimed. It is a common problem all through literary history as are=20
relationships within poetic groups or circles literary. Often political par=
ties=20
are lonely hearts clubs and journalists never stop being journalists. Olive=
r was=20
a working journalist for a lot of his life.
>=20
> The later works I feel while impressive never reached the heights of h=
is=20
output in the Paladin and in "Kind". I see the shadow of Notley in the two =
final=20
books. A harsh judgement but one based on Oliver's own strengths.
>=20
> On a final note I regret Douglas did not value the Paul Buck driven wr=
iting=20
that was published in Curtains. Given that his own work covered many sexual=
=20
areas I never saw the logic of not recognising the advances made by Paul Bu=
ck.
>=20
</tt></pre>
<span><font color=3D"#888888"> </font></span>
</div>
<span><font color=3D"#888888"> </font></span>
</blockquote>
<span><font color=3D"#888888"> </font></span>
</div>
<span><font color=3D"#888888"> <br clear=3D"all"> <br>-- <br>=20
<div>=20
<div dir=3D"ltr">
David Joseph Bircumshaw=20
<br>=20
<div>=20
<i><span style=3D"font-style:italic"></span></i>=20
</div>Website and A Chide's Alphabet=20
<br>=20
<a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://www.staplednapkin.org.uk">ht=
tp://www.staplednapkin.org.uk</a>=20
<br>The Animal Subsides=20
<a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://www.arrowheadpress.co.uk/boo=
ks/animal.html">http://www.arrowheadpress.co.uk/books/animal.html</a>=20
<br>Facebook:=20
<a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://www.facebook.com/david.bircu=
mshaw">http://www.facebook.com/david.bircumshaw</a>=20
<br>Tumblr:=20
<a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://zantikus.tumblr.com/">http:/=
/zantikus.tumblr.com/</a>=20
<br>twitter:=20
<a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://twitter.com/bucketshave">htt=
p://twitter.com/bucketshave</a>=20
<br>blog:=20
<a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://groggydays.blogspot.com/">ht=
tp://groggydays.blogspot.com/</a>=20
<br>Leicester Poetry Society:=20
<a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://www.poetryleicester.com">htt=
p://www.poetryleicester.com</a>=20
<br>=20
</div>=20
</div> </font></span>
</div>=20
</div>=20
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br clear=3D"all">
<br>--=20
<br>
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
David Joseph Bircumshaw
<br>
<div>
<i><span style=3D"font-style:italic"></span></i>
</div>Website and A Chide's Alphabet
<br>
<a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://www.staplednapkin.org.uk">http://ww=
w.staplednapkin.org.uk</a>=20
<br>The Animal Subsides=20
<a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://www.arrowheadpress.co.uk/books/anim=
al.html">http://www.arrowheadpress.co.uk/books/animal.html</a>
<br>Facebook:=20
<a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://www.facebook.com/david.bircumshaw">=
http://www.facebook.com/david.bircumshaw</a>
<br>Tumblr:=20
<a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://zantikus.tumblr.com/">http://zantik=
us.tumblr.com/</a>
<br>twitter:=20
<a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://twitter.com/bucketshave">http://twi=
tter.com/bucketshave</a>
<br>blog:=20
<a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://groggydays.blogspot.com/">http://gr=
oggydays.blogspot.com/</a>
<br>Leicester Poetry Society:=20
<a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://www.poetryleicester.com">http://www=
.poetryleicester.com</a>
<br>
</div>
</div>=20
</div>=20
</div>
<u></u></blockquote></div></div></div>
</blockquote></div><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><div><div dir=3D"ltr">David=
Joseph Bircumshaw<br><div><i><span style=3D"font-style:italic"></span></i>=
</div>Website and A Chide's Alphabet<br><a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http:/=
/www.staplednapkin.org.uk">http://www.staplednapkin.org.uk</a> <br>The Anim=
al Subsides <a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://www.arrowheadpress.co.uk/bo=
oks/animal.html">http://www.arrowheadpress.co.uk/books/animal.html</a><br>F=
acebook: <a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://www.facebook.com/david.bircums=
haw">http://www.facebook.com/david.bircumshaw</a><br>Tumblr: <a target=3D"_=
blank" href=3D"http://zantikus.tumblr.com/">http://zantikus.tumblr.com/</a>=
<br>twitter: <a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://twitter.com/bucketshave">h=
ttp://twitter.com/bucketshave</a><br>blog: <a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"htt=
p://groggydays.blogspot.com/">http://groggydays.blogspot.com/</a><br>Leices=
ter Poetry Society: <a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://www.poetryleicester=
.com">http://www.poetryleicester.com</a><br></div></div>
</div></div>
<[log in to unmask]></blockquote></body>
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2014 12:00:58 +0000
Reply-To: British & Irish poets <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: British & Irish poets <[log in to unmask]>
From: Tim Allen <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: The wily Alex
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1085)
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-3-189910871
Message-ID: <[log in to unmask]>
--Apple-Mail-3-189910871
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charset=us-ascii
I agree with you Mark. I know the line that Sean takes on it, and David =
too to an extent, is the view of a portion of what we might call the =
intelligencia (there Dave - your one of the inteligencia) but it is not =
a generally held view by people in general and certainly not the media. =
Nationalist parties are always a strange mix and I don't think they can =
be categorised all together but need to be looked at in their own =
contexts. I don't fully trust Salmond but I don't fully trust anybody =
else either. In contradiction to Sean I think there are genuine =
socialist strands within the SNP and cynic though I am I really don't =
think this is false front - Nicola Sturgeon seems genuine to me. There =
are, I admit, non-socialist and even anti strands within it but the bulk =
of Scotland is not behind them. I personally don't want Scotland to go =
independent because I would much rather be a citizen of a country that =
included it, for a whole raft of reasons.
The UKIP thing is something else. I loathe them, but at the same time =
they do reflect the views of many. They have given a stronger voice to a =
nasty strand of thinking that has always existed in this fair land and =
made it OK to express thinly veiled racist and thuggy rightist opinions =
under a dangerously populist banner. Most of all I don't like the way =
the other parties are pandering to this, particularly Labour. I know =
that this is a matter of political strategy etc but I still don't like =
it and don't think it will do any good in the long run. I believe that =
when faced with vile opinions, especially ones based on scapegoating, =
you should counter them directly and stop worrying about the tabloids =
and opinion poles. The media, especially TV, has much to blame for the =
rise of UKIP - they early on saw Farage as good viewing material and, =
being the media, that's all they were concerned with. They never miss an =
opportunity to have him on the screen.
As for your own fair land - well, it's really pleasing when your =
democracy actually works for once, as with the recent Senate committee =
report on the CIA - such openness would never happen here. The torture =
revelations are no surprise of course - we have known for years about =
this stuff. And as it has always done, everything points to the Brits =
being complicit - Blair, Straw, DAVID Miliband at the top and countless =
others down the line all look as guilty as hell but I very much doubt if =
anything ever comes of it. I doubt too that Rifkind would be so eager to =
uncover secrets if it had been a Conservative government in power at the =
time. But there you go. It's never publicly said but we all know that =
David Miliband would probably be the current leader of the Labour Party =
if he was not so closely associated with rendition.
Bloody politics. Let's get back to something full of warmth and peaceful =
thoughts like poetry.=20
Cheers and Happy Christmas to all my readers.
Tim
=20
On 15 Dec 2014, at 21:37, Mark Weiss wrote:
> I spent the month before the referendum and the two weeks after in =
Glasgow. This is decidedly not what I heard or saw.
>=20
> -----Original Message-----=20
> From: Sean Carey=20
> Sent: Dec 15, 2014 10:22 AM=20
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: The wily Alex=20
>=20
> Salmond assumes a lot and in his timing on the Yes or No vote =
miscalulated. The SNP is rooted in conservative thinking with their core =
support among well paid workers who would be happy to lose Labour or =
socialist thinking. It is their view that poverty is just a scam that =
they pay for with their taxes. They like the SNP because it rids them of =
Labour and English liberalism in a split from London. UKIP and the =
Celtic Nationalists are not and never were socialists. Their roots are =
in Italian 19th century nationalism. I see no trace of John MacLean in =
the SNP brand but a lot of Garibaldi.
--Apple-Mail-3-189910871
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
charset=us-ascii
<html><head></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">I =
agree with you Mark. I know the line that Sean takes on it, and David =
too to an extent, is the view of a portion of what we might call the =
intelligencia (there Dave - your one of the inteligencia) but it is not =
a generally held view by people in general and certainly not the media. =
Nationalist parties are always a strange mix and I don't think they can =
be categorised all together but need to be looked at in their own =
contexts. I don't fully trust Salmond but I don't fully trust anybody =
else either. In contradiction to Sean I think there are genuine =
socialist strands within the SNP and cynic though I am I really don't =
think this is false front - Nicola Sturgeon seems genuine to me. There =
are, I admit, non-socialist and even anti strands within it but the bulk =
of Scotland is not behind them. I personally don't want Scotland to go =
independent because I would much rather be a citizen of a country that =
included it, for a whole raft of reasons.<div><br></div><div>The UKIP =
thing is something else. I loathe them, but at the same time they do =
reflect the views of many. They have given a stronger voice to a nasty =
strand of thinking that has always existed in this fair land and made it =
OK to express thinly veiled racist and thuggy rightist opinions under a =
dangerously populist banner. Most of all I don't like the way the other =
parties are pandering to this, particularly Labour. I know that this is =
a matter of political strategy etc but I still don't like it and don't =
think it will do any good in the long run. I believe that when faced =
with vile opinions, especially ones based on scapegoating, you should =
counter them directly and stop worrying about the tabloids and opinion =
poles. The media, especially TV, has much to blame for the rise of UKIP =
- they early on saw Farage as good viewing material and, being the =
media, that's all they were concerned with. They never miss an =
opportunity to have him on the screen.</div><div><br></div><div>As for =
your own fair land - well, it's really pleasing when your democracy =
actually works for once, as with the recent Senate committee report on =
the CIA - such openness would never happen here. The torture revelations =
are no surprise of course - we have known for years about this stuff. =
And as it has always done, everything points to the Brits being =
complicit - Blair, Straw, DAVID Miliband at the top and countless others =
down the line all look as guilty as hell but I very much doubt if =
anything ever comes of it. I doubt too that Rifkind would be so eager to =
uncover secrets if it had been a Conservative government in power at the =
time. But there you go. It's never publicly said but we all know that =
David Miliband would probably be the current leader of the Labour Party =
if he was not so closely associated with =
rendition.</div><div><br></div><div>Bloody politics. Let's get back to =
something full of warmth and peaceful thoughts like =
poetry. </div><div><br></div><div>Cheers and Happy Christmas to all =
my readers.</div><div><br></div><div>Tim</div><div> =
<br><div><div>On 15 Dec 2014, at 21:37, =
Mark Weiss wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote=
type=3D"cite"><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: =
separate; font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: =
normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: =
auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><span =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: Geneva, Arial, =
Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; ">I spent the month before the =
referendum and the two weeks after in Glasgow. This is decidedly not =
what I heard or saw.<br><br><blockquote style=3D"padding-left: 5px; =
margin-left: 0px; border-left-color: rgb(0, 0, 255); border-left-width: =
2px; border-left-style: solid; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; =
text-decoration: none; font-size: 10pt; font-family: arial, sans-serif; =
color: black; ">-----Original Message-----<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>From: Sean Carey<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span><[log in to unmask]><br>Se=
nt: Dec 15, 2014 10:22 AM<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>To:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span><a =
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">BRITISH-IRISH-POETS@JIS=
CMAIL.AC.UK</a><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>Subject: The wily =
Alex<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span><br><br>Salmond =
assumes a lot and in his timing on the Yes or No vote miscalulated. The =
SNP is rooted in conservative thinking with their core support among =
well paid workers who would be happy to lose Labour or socialist =
thinking. It is their view that poverty is just a scam that they pay for =
with their taxes. They like the SNP because it rids them of Labour and =
English liberalism in a split from London. UKIP and the Celtic =
Nationalists are not and never were socialists. Their roots are in =
Italian 19th century nationalism. I see no trace of John MacLean in the =
SNP brand but a lot of =
Garibaldi.<br><[log in to unmask]></blockquote></span></span></blockqu=
ote></div><br></div></body></html>=
--Apple-Mail-3-189910871--
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2014 16:39:56 -0500
Reply-To: British & Irish poets <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: British & Irish poets <[log in to unmask]>
From: Sean Carey <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Nationalism Will Always Exist
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="----=_Part_10276_1195538575.1418852396434"
Message-ID: <[log in to unmask]>
------=_Part_10276_1195538575.1418852396434
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
But when nationalist hate and violence create death and injuries and end up destroying jobs then we must simply say No. Within Socialist thought since the sixties or earlier Internationalism was sidelined. Many genuine radicals thought entering nationalist parties would change them via entryism. Sadly many died or suffered serious injuries as a result. The internal nationalist party structures do not tolerate debate while their paramilitary wings are rooted in a tiny cabal calling the shots.
In my own time running literary groups I kept an open door policy which upheld the right to free speech for all. To exclude any political view I could never allow and if people found listening to poets or bands or singers who supported violence they had the option to leave. Many poets indeed are nationalists with indeed many famous writers fascists. That term in a 2014 context sounds corny but a lot of people in the world detest democracy. They would prefer a strong man or woman in power with no elections. Modern fascists do not wear brown shirts or indeed W.B. Yeats' blue hue. There is no Mosley holding mass meetings or street battles between left and right. Ireland has no Eoin O' Duffy but far smoother operators in designer kit.
The benefits of "The Special Relationship" with America only works in America's interest. To keep Europe divided has always been an American ploy and the dollars that helped kill and maim in Birmingham indeed crossed the Atlantic. America started its imperial adventures in Mexico where its role is still dubious. Rather than pull clear of Europe Britain should pull closer to the E.U. which contains nations who view America with deep mistrust. Under Obama America has tried to retreat but the real action East of Suez keeps getting in the way. I am sure the State Dept. look with favour on UKIP and their European role models in Golden Dawn and the French National Front. These groups help America's interest.
Poets can help by opposing the drift to fascist rule on these islands by pointing out that we live in times of huge danger. Poems in themselves can inspire young and old to join those who oppose 2014 right wing thinking. In the past poems helped to expose false promises and lynch mob tactics.
Sent from AOL Mobile Mail
-----Original Message-----
From: Tim Allen <[log in to unmask]>
To: BRITISH-IRISH-POETS <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Tue, Dec 16, 2014 12:01 PM
Subject: Re: The wily Alex
<div id="AOLMsgPart_2_513692f5-ee9b-4a91-9f7f-2c9047c3b254">
<div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; " class="aolReplacedBody">
I agree with you Mark. I know the line that Sean takes on it, and David too to an extent, is the view of a portion of what we might call the intelligencia (there Dave - your one of the inteligencia) but it is not a generally held view by people in general and certainly not the media. Nationalist parties are always a strange mix and I don't think they can be categorised all together but need to be looked at in their own contexts. I don't fully trust Salmond but I don't fully trust anybody else either. In contradiction to Sean I think there are genuine socialist strands within the SNP and cynic though I am I really don't think this is false front - Nicola Sturgeon seems genuine to me. There are, I admit, non-socialist and even anti strands within it but the bulk of Scotland is not behind them. I personally don't want Scotland to go independent because I would much rather be a citizen of a country that included it, for a whole raft of reasons.
<div>
The UKIP thing is something else. I loathe them, but at the same time they do reflect the views of many. They have given a stronger voice to a nasty strand of thinking that has always existed in this fair land and made it OK to express thinly veiled racist and thuggy rightist opinions under a dangerously populist banner. Most of all I don't like the way the other parties are pandering to this, particularly Labour. I know that this is a matter of political strategy etc but I still don't like it and don't think it will do any good in the long run. I believe that when faced with vile opinions, especially ones based on scapegoating, you should counter them directly and stop worrying about the tabloids and opinion poles. The media, especially TV, has much to blame for the rise of UKIP - they early on saw Farage as good viewing material and, being the media, that's all they were concerned with. They never miss an opportunity to have him on the screen.
As for your own fair land - well, it's really pleasing when your democracy actually works for once, as with the recent Senate committee report on the CIA - such openness would never happen here. The torture revelations are no surprise of course - we have known for years about this stuff. And as it has always done, everything points to the Brits being complicit - Blair, Straw, DAVID Miliband at the top and countless others down the line all look as guilty as hell but I very much doubt if anything ever comes of it. I doubt too that Rifkind would be so eager to uncover secrets if it had been a Conservative government in power at the time. But there you go. It's never publicly said but we all know that David Miliband would probably be the current leader of the Labour Party if he was not so closely associated with rendition.
Bloody politics. Let's get back to something full of warmth and peaceful thoughts like poetry.
Cheers and Happy Christmas to all my readers.
Tim
<div>
<div>
On 15 Dec 2014, at 21:37, Mark Weiss wrote:
<br class="aolmail_Apple-interchange-newline">
<blockquote>
<span class="aolmail_Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><span class="aolmail_Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; ">I spent the month before the referendum and the two weeks after in Glasgow. This is decidedly not what I heard or saw.
<blockquote style="padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 0px; border-left-color: rgb(0, 0, 255); border-left-width: 2px; border-left-style: solid; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-size: 10pt; font-family: arial, sans-serif; color: black; ">
-----Original Message-----
<span class="aolmail_Apple-converted-space"> </span>
From: Sean Carey
<span class="aolmail_Apple-converted-space"> </span>
Sent: Dec 15, 2014 10:22 AM
<span class="aolmail_Apple-converted-space"> </span>
To:
<span class="aolmail_Apple-converted-space"> </span>
<a target="_blank" href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>
<span class="aolmail_Apple-converted-space"> </span>
Subject: The wily Alex
<span class="aolmail_Apple-converted-space"> </span>
Salmond assumes a lot and in his timing on the Yes or No vote miscalulated. The SNP is rooted in conservative thinking with their core support among well paid workers who would be happy to lose Labour or socialist thinking. It is their view that poverty is just a scam that they pay for with their taxes. They like the SNP because it rids them of Labour and English liberalism in a split from London. UKIP and the Celtic Nationalists are not and never were socialists. Their roots are in Italian 19th century nationalism. I see no trace of John MacLean in the SNP brand but a lot of Garibaldi.
</blockquote></span></span>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
------=_Part_10276_1195538575.1418852396434
Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
But when nationalist hate and violence create death and injuries and end up=
destroying jobs then we must simply say No. Within Socialist thought since=
the sixties or earlier Internationalism was sidelined. Many genuine radica=
ls thought entering nationalist parties would change them via entryism. Sad=
ly many died or suffered serious injuries as a result. The internal nationa=
list party structures do not tolerate debate while their paramilitary wings=
are rooted in a tiny cabal calling the shots. <div><br></div><div><br=
></div><div>In my own time running literary groups I kept an open door poli=
cy which upheld the right to free speech for all. To exclude any political =
view I could never allow and if people found listening to poets or bands or=
singers who supported violence they had the option to leave. Many poets in=
deed are nationalists with indeed many famous writers fascists. That term i=
n a 2014 context sounds corny but a lot of people in the world detest democ=
racy. They would prefer a strong man or woman in power with no elections. M=
odern fascists do not wear brown shirts or indeed W.B. Yeats' blue hue. The=
re is no Mosley holding mass meetings or street battles between left and ri=
ght. Ireland has no Eoin O' Duffy but far smoother operators in designer ki=
t.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>The benefits of "The Special Rel=
ationship" with America only works in America's interest. To keep Europe di=
vided has always been an American ploy and the dollars that helped kill and=
maim in Birmingham indeed crossed the Atlantic. America started its imperi=
al adventures in Mexico where its role is still dubious. Rather than pull c=
lear of Europe Britain should pull closer to the E.U. which contains nation=
s who view America with deep mistrust. Under Obama America has tried to ret=
reat but the real action East of Suez keeps getting in the way. I am sure t=
he State Dept. look with favour on UKIP and their European role models in G=
olden Dawn and the French National Front. These groups help America's inter=
est. </div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Poets can help by opposi=
ng the drift to fascist rule on these islands by pointing out that we live =
in times of huge danger. Poems in themselves can inspire young and old to j=
oin those who oppose 2014 right wing thinking. In the past poems helped to =
expose false promises and lynch mob tactics.</div><div><br></div><div><br><=
/div><div><br>Sent from AOL Mobile Mail<br><br><br>-----Original Message---=
--<br>From: Tim Allen <[log in to unmask]>=
<br>To: BRITISH-IRISH-POETS <[log in to unmask]><br>S=
ent: Tue, Dec 16, 2014 12:01 PM<br>Subject: Re: The wily Alex<br><br><br>
<div id=3D"AOLMsgPart_2_513692f5-ee9b-4a91-9f7f-2c9047c3b254">
<div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line=
-break: after-white-space; " class=3D"aolReplacedBody">
I agree with you Mark. I know the line that Sean takes on it, and David too=
to an extent, is the view of a portion of what we might call the intellige=
ncia (there Dave - your one of the inteligencia) but it is not a generally =
held view by people in general and certainly not the media. Nationalist par=
ties are always a strange mix and I don't think they can be categorised all=
together but need to be looked at in their own contexts. I don't fully tru=
st Salmond but I don't fully trust anybody else either. In contradiction to=
Sean I think there are genuine socialist strands within the SNP and cynic =
though I am I really don't think this is false front - Nicola Sturgeon seem=
s genuine to me. There are, I admit, non-socialist and even anti strands wi=
thin it but the bulk of Scotland is not behind them. I personally don't wan=
t Scotland to go independent because I would much rather be a citizen of a =
country that included it, for a whole raft of reasons.
<div>
<br>
</div>
<div>
The UKIP thing is something else. I loathe them, but at the same time they =
do reflect the views of many. They have given a stronger voice to a nasty s=
trand of thinking that has always existed in this fair land and made it OK =
to express thinly veiled racist and thuggy rightist opinions under a danger=
ously populist banner. Most of all I don't like the way the other parties a=
re pandering to this, particularly Labour. I know that this is a matter of =
political strategy etc but I still don't like it and don't think it will do=
any good in the long run. I believe that when faced with vile opinions, es=
pecially ones based on scapegoating, you should counter them directly and s=
top worrying about the tabloids and opinion poles. The media, especially TV=
, has much to blame for the rise of UKIP - they early on saw Farage as good=
viewing material and, being the media, that's all they were concerned with=
. They never miss an opportunity to have him on the screen.
</div>
<div>
<br>
</div>
<div>
As for your own fair land - well, it's really pleasing when your democracy =
actually works for once, as with the recent Senate committee report on the =
CIA - such openness would never happen here. The torture revelations are no=
surprise of course - we have known for years about this stuff. And as it h=
as always done, everything points to the Brits being complicit - Blair, Str=
aw, DAVID Miliband at the top and countless others down the line all look a=
s guilty as hell but I very much doubt if anything ever comes of it. I doub=
t too that Rifkind would be so eager to uncover secrets if it had been a Co=
nservative government in power at the time. But there you go. It's never pu=
blicly said but we all know that David Miliband would probably be the curre=
nt leader of the Labour Party if he was not so closely associated with rend=
ition.
</div>
<div>
<br>
</div>
<div>
Bloody politics. Let's get back to something full of warmth and peaceful th=
oughts like poetry.
</div>
<div>
<br>
</div>
<div>
Cheers and Happy Christmas to all my readers.
</div>
<div>
<br>
</div>
<div>
Tim
</div>
<div>
<br>
<div>
<div>
On 15 Dec 2014, at 21:37, Mark Weiss wrote:
</div>
<br class=3D"aolmail_Apple-interchange-newline">
<blockquote>
<span class=3D"aolmail_Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: sepa=
rate; font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; fon=
t-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; =
text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-spa=
ce: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing=
: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-ef=
fect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;=
font-size: medium; "><span class=3D"aolmail_Apple-style-span" style=3D"fon=
t-family: Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; ">I spent =
the month before the referendum and the two weeks after in Glasgow. This is=
decidedly not what I heard or saw.<br><br>
<blockquote style=3D"padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 0px; border-left=
-color: rgb(0, 0, 255); border-left-width: 2px; border-left-style: solid; f=
ont-weight: normal; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-size: 1=
0pt; font-family: arial, sans-serif; color: black; ">
-----Original Message-----
<span class=3D"aolmail_Apple-converted-space"> </span>
<br>From: Sean Carey
<span class=3D"aolmail_Apple-converted-space"> </span>
<br>Sent: Dec 15, 2014 10:22 AM
<span class=3D"aolmail_Apple-converted-space"> </span>
<br>To:
<span class=3D"aolmail_Apple-converted-space"> </span>
<a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]
UK">[log in to unmask]</a>
<span class=3D"aolmail_Apple-converted-space"> </span>
<br>Subject: The wily Alex
<span class=3D"aolmail_Apple-converted-space"> </span>
<br>
<br>Salmond assumes a lot and in his timing on the Yes or No vote mi=
scalulated. The SNP is rooted in conservative thinking with their core supp=
ort among well paid workers who would be happy to lose Labour or socialist =
thinking. It is their view that poverty is just a scam that they pay for wi=
th their taxes. They like the SNP because it rids them of Labour and Englis=
h liberalism in a split from London. UKIP and the Celtic Nationalists are n=
ot and never were socialists. Their roots are in Italian 19th century natio=
nalism. I see no trace of John MacLean in the SNP brand but a lot of Gariba=
ldi.
<br>
</blockquote></span></span>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
------=_Part_10276_1195538575.1418852396434--
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2014 17:15:04 -0500
Reply-To: British & Irish poets <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: British & Irish poets <[log in to unmask]>
From: Mark Weiss <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Nationalism Will Always Exist
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Message-ID: <[log in to unmask]>
<head><style>body{font-family: Geneva,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:=
9pt;background-color: #ffffff;color: black;}</style></head><body id=3D"comp=
Text">This is a vast oversimplification of history, Sean. Like, that Mexico=
was hardly our first imperialist adventure. And the special relation=
ship has varied in its impact--it was British money that funded the settlem=
ent of the west and built the railroads, and that dominated the US economy =
until 1890, and it was the decision of the London banks not to back the con=
federacy that won the war for the north. But I'll restrict my comments to t=
he immediate situation in Scotland preceding the referendum. The area aroun=
d the Clyde estuary west of Glasgow voted no, and tipped the scale. There w=
ere two factors in this that are at odds with your interpretation, neither =
of them very pretty. One is that the area is a stronghold of the Orangemen.=
The other is that the major industry in the area is the trident base. I wa=
s in Helensburgh a couple of days before the referendum. The talk was all a=
bout the economic impact if there were a yes vote and the base was closed. =
And the area's Orange lodges made their opinion eminently clear with marche=
s and political organizing. Economic insecurity motivated the vote in that =
area, and sectarian prejudice. I don't think US interests had much to do wi=
th it.<br><br><blockquote style=3D"padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 0px; bor=
der-left: #0000ff 2px solid; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; text-=
decoration: none; font-size: 10pt; font-family: arial,sans-serif; color: bl=
ack;">-----Original Message-----
<br>From: Sean Carey <[log in to unmask]>
<br>Sent: Dec 17, 2014 4:39 PM
<br>To: [log in to unmask]
<br>Subject: Re: Nationalism Will Always Exist
<br><br>But when nationalist hate and violence create death and injuries an=
d end up destroying jobs then we must simply say No. Within Socialist thoug=
ht since the sixties or earlier Internationalism was sidelined. Many genuin=
e radicals thought entering nationalist parties would change them via entry=
ism. Sadly many died or suffered serious injuries as a result. The internal=
nationalist party structures do not tolerate debate while their paramilita=
ry wings are rooted in a tiny cabal calling the shots. <div><br></div>=
<div><br></div><div>In my own time running literary groups I kept an open d=
oor policy which upheld the right to free speech for all. To exclude any po=
litical view I could never allow and if people found listening to poets or =
bands or singers who supported violence they had the option to leave. Many =
poets indeed are nationalists with indeed many famous writers fascists. Tha=
t term in a 2014 context sounds corny but a lot of people in the world dete=
st democracy. They would prefer a strong man or woman in power with no elec=
tions. Modern fascists do not wear brown shirts or indeed W.B. Yeats' blue =
hue. There is no Mosley holding mass meetings or street battles between lef=
t and right. Ireland has no Eoin O' Duffy but far smoother operators in des=
igner kit.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>The benefits of "The Spe=
cial Relationship" with America only works in America's interest. To keep E=
urope divided has always been an American ploy and the dollars that helped =
kill and maim in Birmingham indeed crossed the Atlantic. America started it=
s imperial adventures in Mexico where its role is still dubious. Rather tha=
n pull clear of Europe Britain should pull closer to the E.U. which contain=
s nations who view America with deep mistrust. Under Obama America has trie=
d to retreat but the real action East of Suez keeps getting in the way. I a=
m sure the State Dept. look with favour on UKIP and their European role mod=
els in Golden Dawn and the French National Front. These groups help America=
's interest. </div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Poets can help b=
y opposing the drift to fascist rule on these islands by pointing out that =
we live in times of huge danger. Poems in themselves can inspire young and =
old to join those who oppose 2014 right wing thinking. In the past poems he=
lped to expose false promises and lynch mob tactics.</div><div><br></div><d=
iv><br></div><div><br>Sent from AOL Mobile Mail<br><br><br>-----Original Me=
ssage-----<br>From: Tim Allen <[log in to unmask]
C.UK><br>To: BRITISH-IRISH-POETS <[log in to unmask]&=
gt;<br>Sent: Tue, Dec 16, 2014 12:01 PM<br>Subject: Re: The wily Alex<br><b=
r><br>
<div id=3D"AOLMsgPart_2_513692f5-ee9b-4a91-9f7f-2c9047c3b254">
<div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line=
-break: after-white-space; " class=3D"aolReplacedBody">
I agree with you Mark. I know the line that Sean takes on it, and David too=
to an extent, is the view of a portion of what we might call the intellige=
ncia (there Dave - your one of the inteligencia) but it is not a generally =
held view by people in general and certainly not the media. Nationalist par=
ties are always a strange mix and I don't think they can be categorised all=
together but need to be looked at in their own contexts. I don't fully tru=
st Salmond but I don't fully trust anybody else either. In contradiction to=
Sean I think there are genuine socialist strands within the SNP and cynic =
though I am I really don't think this is false front - Nicola Sturgeon seem=
s genuine to me. There are, I admit, non-socialist and even anti strands wi=
thin it but the bulk of Scotland is not behind them. I personally don't wan=
t Scotland to go independent because I would much rather be a citizen of a =
country that included it, for a whole raft of reasons.
<div>
<br>
</div>
<div>
The UKIP thing is something else. I loathe them, but at the same time they =
do reflect the views of many. They have given a stronger voice to a nasty s=
trand of thinking that has always existed in this fair land and made it OK =
to express thinly veiled racist and thuggy rightist opinions under a danger=
ously populist banner. Most of all I don't like the way the other parties a=
re pandering to this, particularly Labour. I know that this is a matter of =
political strategy etc but I still don't like it and don't think it will do=
any good in the long run. I believe that when faced with vile opinions, es=
pecially ones based on scapegoating, you should counter them directly and s=
top worrying about the tabloids and opinion poles. The media, especially TV=
, has much to blame for the rise of UKIP - they early on saw Farage as good=
viewing material and, being the media, that's all they were concerned with=
. They never miss an opportunity to have him on the screen.
</div>
<div>
<br>
</div>
<div>
As for your own fair land - well, it's really pleasing when your democracy =
actually works for once, as with the recent Senate committee report on the =
CIA - such openness would never happen here. The torture revelations are no=
surprise of course - we have known for years about this stuff. And as it h=
as always done, everything points to the Brits being complicit - Blair, Str=
aw, DAVID Miliband at the top and countless others down the line all look a=
s guilty as hell but I very much doubt if anything ever comes of it. I doub=
t too that Rifkind would be so eager to uncover secrets if it had been a Co=
nservative government in power at the time. But there you go. It's never pu=
blicly said but we all know that David Miliband would probably be the curre=
nt leader of the Labour Party if he was not so closely associated with rend=
ition.
</div>
<div>
<br>
</div>
<div>
Bloody politics. Let's get back to something full of warmth and peaceful th=
oughts like poetry.
</div>
<div>
<br>
</div>
<div>
Cheers and Happy Christmas to all my readers.
</div>
<div>
<br>
</div>
<div>
Tim
</div>
<div>
<br>
<div>
<div>
On 15 Dec 2014, at 21:37, Mark Weiss wrote:
</div>
<br class=3D"aolmail_Apple-interchange-newline">
<blockquote>
<span class=3D"aolmail_Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: sepa=
rate; font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; fon=
t-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; =
text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-spa=
ce: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing=
: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-ef=
fect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;=
font-size: medium; "><span class=3D"aolmail_Apple-style-span" style=3D"fon=
t-family: Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; ">I spent =
the month before the referendum and the two weeks after in Glasgow. This is=
decidedly not what I heard or saw.<br><br>
<blockquote style=3D"padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 0px; border-left=
-color: rgb(0, 0, 255); border-left-width: 2px; border-left-style: solid; f=
ont-weight: normal; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-size: 1=
0pt; font-family: arial, sans-serif; color: black; ">
-----Original Message-----
<span class=3D"aolmail_Apple-converted-space"> </span>
<br>From: Sean Carey
<span class=3D"aolmail_Apple-converted-space"> </span>
<br>Sent: Dec 15, 2014 10:22 AM
<span class=3D"aolmail_Apple-converted-space"> </span>
<br>To:
<span class=3D"aolmail_Apple-converted-space"> </span>
<a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]
UK">[log in to unmask]</a>
<span class=3D"aolmail_Apple-converted-space"> </span>
<br>Subject: The wily Alex
<span class=3D"aolmail_Apple-converted-space"> </span>
<br>
<br>Salmond assumes a lot and in his timing on the Yes or No vote mi=
scalulated. The SNP is rooted in conservative thinking with their core supp=
ort among well paid workers who would be happy to lose Labour or socialist =
thinking. It is their view that poverty is just a scam that they pay for wi=
th their taxes. They like the SNP because it rids them of Labour and Englis=
h liberalism in a split from London. UKIP and the Celtic Nationalists are n=
ot and never were socialists. Their roots are in Italian 19th century natio=
nalism. I see no trace of John MacLean in the SNP brand but a lot of Gariba=
ldi.
<br>
</blockquote></span></span>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div><[log in to unmask]></blockquote></body>
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2014 19:19:01 -0500
Reply-To: British & Irish poets <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: British & Irish poets <[log in to unmask]>
From: Sean Carey <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Nationalism Will Always Exist
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="----=_Part_10511_1911646887.1418861941216"
Message-ID: <[log in to unmask]>
------=_Part_10511_1911646887.1418861941216
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The days of the Orange Order having any power in Scotland are now history M=
ark. In fairness to the SNP it contains both Catholics and Protestants unli=
ke the sectarian Sinn Fein/Democratic Unionist parties in N. Ireland. That =
is to be admired while the SNP have made sectarianism an offence in a socce=
r sense.
These are positives. On American imperialism it started from Mexico onwards=
and has never stopped. Now the BRIC bloc are near to surpassing America in=
military and economic terms. But after 2016's elections the probable backl=
ash will be aimed at the BRIC states. All four are nuclear powers with qual=
ity air defence systems.
America is by nature an inward looking society with isolationism the core v=
alue of both Obama and George W. Bush. 9/11 ended thinking the American hom=
e front could contain a well planned attack. The old days of funding guerri=
lla groups worldwide are now history. The romance of blood being spilled in=
Belfast or Dublin or London or Birmingham is now remote. But the dead can =
never return and those wounded in mind and body still bear their scars and =
wound.
Sent from AOL Mobile Mail
-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Weiss <[log in to unmask]>
To: BRITISH-IRISH-POETS <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Wed, Dec 17, 2014 10:15 PM
Subject: Re: Nationalism Will Always Exist
<div id=3D"AOLMsgPart_1_7dad7733-f236-4233-a7d1-7e116c621cce">
<style scoped=3D"">#AOLMsgPart_1_7dad7733-f236-4233-a7d1-7e116c621cce td{co=
lor: black;} .aolReplacedBody {font-family: Geneva,Arial,Helvetica,sans-ser=
if;font-size:9pt;background-color: #ffffff;color: black;}</style>
<div id=3D"aolmail_compText" class=3D"aolReplacedBody">
This is a vast oversimplification of history, Sean. Like, that Mexico was h=
ardly our first imperialist adventure. And the special relationship has va=
ried in its impact--it was British money that funded the settlement of the =
west and built the railroads, and that dominated the US economy until 1890,=
and it was the decision of the London banks not to back the confederacy th=
at won the war for the north. But I'll restrict my comments to the immediat=
e situation in Scotland preceding the referendum. The area around the Clyde=
estuary west of Glasgow voted no, and tipped the scale. There were two fac=
tors in this that are at odds with your interpretation, neither of them ver=
y pretty. One is that the area is a stronghold of the Orangemen. The other =
is that the major industry in the area is the trident base. I was in Helens=
burgh a couple of days before the referendum. The talk was all about the ec=
onomic impact if there were a yes vote and the base was closed. And the are=
a's Orange lodges made their opinion eminently clear with marches and polit=
ical organizing. Economic insecurity motivated the vote in that area, and s=
ectarian prejudice. I don't think US interests had much to do with it.
=20
=20
<blockquote style=3D"padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 0px; border-left: #00=
00ff 2px solid; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; text-decoration: n=
one; font-size: 10pt; font-family: arial,sans-serif; color: black;">
-----Original Message-----=20
=20
From: Sean Carey=20
=20
Sent: Dec 17, 2014 4:39 PM=20
=20
To: <a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">BRITISH-IRISH-POE=
[log in to unmask]</a>=20
=20
Subject: Re: Nationalism Will Always Exist=20
=20
=20
But when nationalist hate and violence create death and injuries and end up=
destroying jobs then we must simply say No. Within Socialist thought since=
the sixties or earlier Internationalism was sidelined. Many genuine radica=
ls thought entering nationalist parties would change them via entryism. Sad=
ly many died or suffered serious injuries as a result. The internal nationa=
list party structures do not tolerate debate while their paramilitary wings=
are rooted in a tiny cabal calling the shots.=20
<div>
=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
In my own time running literary groups I kept an open door policy which uph=
eld the right to free speech for all. To exclude any political view I could=
never allow and if people found listening to poets or bands or singers who=
supported violence they had the option to leave. Many poets indeed are nat=
ionalists with indeed many famous writers fascists. That term in a 2014 con=
text sounds corny but a lot of people in the world detest democracy. They w=
ould prefer a strong man or woman in power with no elections. Modern fascis=
ts do not wear brown shirts or indeed W.B. Yeats' blue hue. There is no Mos=
ley holding mass meetings or street battles between left and right. Ireland=
has no Eoin O' Duffy but far smoother operators in designer kit.
=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
The benefits of "The Special Relationship" with America only works in Ameri=
ca's interest. To keep Europe divided has always been an American ploy and =
the dollars that helped kill and maim in Birmingham indeed crossed the Atla=
ntic. America started its imperial adventures in Mexico where its role is s=
till dubious. Rather than pull clear of Europe Britain should pull closer t=
o the E.U. which contains nations who view America with deep mistrust. Unde=
r Obama America has tried to retreat but the real action East of Suez keeps=
getting in the way. I am sure the State Dept. look with favour on UKIP and=
their European role models in Golden Dawn and the French National Front. T=
hese groups help America's interest.=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
Poets can help by opposing the drift to fascist rule on these islands by po=
inting out that we live in times of huge danger. Poems in themselves can in=
spire young and old to join those who oppose 2014 right wing thinking. In t=
he past poems helped to expose false promises and lynch mob tactics.
=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
Sent from AOL Mobile Mail
=20
=20
=20
-----Original Message-----
=20
From: Tim Allen <<a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]
AC.UK">[log in to unmask]</a>>
=20
To: BRITISH-IRISH-POETS <<a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]
UK">[log in to unmask]</a>>
=20
Sent: Tue, Dec 16, 2014 12:01 PM
=20
Subject: Re: The wily Alex
=20
=20
=20
=20
<div id=3D"aolmail_AOLMsgPart_2_513692f5-ee9b-4a91-9f7f-2c9047c3b254">=
=20
<div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-=
line-break: after-white-space; " class=3D"aolmail_aolReplacedBody">
I agree with you Mark. I know the line that Sean takes on it, and David to=
o to an extent, is the view of a portion of what we might call the intellig=
encia (there Dave - your one of the inteligencia) but it is not a generally=
held view by people in general and certainly not the media. Nationalist pa=
rties are always a strange mix and I don't think they can be categorised al=
l together but need to be looked at in their own contexts. I don't fully tr=
ust Salmond but I don't fully trust anybody else either. In contradiction t=
o Sean I think there are genuine socialist strands within the SNP and cynic=
though I am I really don't think this is false front - Nicola Sturgeon see=
ms genuine to me. There are, I admit, non-socialist and even anti strands w=
ithin it but the bulk of Scotland is not behind them. I personally don't wa=
nt Scotland to go independent because I would much rather be a citizen of a=
country that included it, for a whole raft of reasons.=20
<div>=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
The UKIP thing is something else. I loathe them, but at the same time they=
do reflect the views of many. They have given a stronger voice to a nasty =
strand of thinking that has always existed in this fair land and made it OK=
to express thinly veiled racist and thuggy rightist opinions under a dange=
rously populist banner. Most of all I don't like the way the other parties =
are pandering to this, particularly Labour. I know that this is a matter of=
political strategy etc but I still don't like it and don't think it will d=
o any good in the long run. I believe that when faced with vile opinions, e=
specially ones based on scapegoating, you should counter them directly and =
stop worrying about the tabloids and opinion poles. The media, especially T=
V, has much to blame for the rise of UKIP - they early on saw Farage as goo=
d viewing material and, being the media, that's all they were concerned wit=
h. They never miss an opportunity to have him on the screen.=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
As for your own fair land - well, it's really pleasing when your democracy=
actually works for once, as with the recent Senate committee report on the=
CIA - such openness would never happen here. The torture revelations are n=
o surprise of course - we have known for years about this stuff. And as it =
has always done, everything points to the Brits being complicit - Blair, St=
raw, DAVID Miliband at the top and countless others down the line all look =
as guilty as hell but I very much doubt if anything ever comes of it. I dou=
bt too that Rifkind would be so eager to uncover secrets if it had been a C=
onservative government in power at the time. But there you go. It's never p=
ublicly said but we all know that David Miliband would probably be the curr=
ent leader of the Labour Party if he was not so closely associated with ren=
dition.=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
Bloody politics. Let's get back to something full of warmth and peaceful t=
houghts like poetry. =20
=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
Cheers and Happy Christmas to all my readers.=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
Tim=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
<div>=20
<div>
On 15 Dec 2014, at 21:37, Mark Weiss wrote:=20
=20
<br class=3D"aolmail_aolmail_Apple-interchange-newline">=20
<blockquote>=20
<span class=3D"aolmail_aolmail_Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-co=
llapse: separate; font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant:=
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; =
orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: non=
e; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizo=
ntal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decor=
ations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke=
-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><span class=3D"aolmail_aolmail_Apple-styl=
e-span" style=3D"font-family: Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-si=
ze: 12px; ">I spent the month before the referendum and the two weeks after=
in Glasgow. This is decidedly not what I heard or saw.
=20
<blockquote style=3D"padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 0px; border-=
left-color: rgb(0, 0, 255); border-left-width: 2px; border-left-style: soli=
d; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-siz=
e: 10pt; font-family: arial, sans-serif; color: black; ">
-----Original Message-----=20
<span class=3D"aolmail_aolmail_Apple-converted-space"> </span>=
=20
=20
From: Sean Carey=20
<span class=3D"aolmail_aolmail_Apple-converted-space"> </span>=
=20
=20
Sent: Dec 15, 2014 10:22 AM=20
<span class=3D"aolmail_aolmail_Apple-converted-space"> </span>=
=20
=20
To:=20
<span class=3D"aolmail_aolmail_Apple-converted-space"> </span>=
=20
<a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:BRITISH-IRISH-POETS@JISCMAIL=
.AC.UK">[log in to unmask]</a>=20
<span class=3D"aolmail_aolmail_Apple-converted-space"> </span>=
=20
=20
Subject: The wily Alex=20
<span class=3D"aolmail_aolmail_Apple-converted-space"> </span>=
=20
=20
=20
=20
Salmond assumes a lot and in his timing on the Yes or No vote miscalulated.=
The SNP is rooted in conservative thinking with their core support among w=
ell paid workers who would be happy to lose Labour or socialist thinking. I=
t is their view that poverty is just a scam that they pay for with their ta=
xes. They like the SNP because it rids them of Labour and English liberalis=
m in a split from London. UKIP and the Celtic Nationalists are not and neve=
r were socialists. Their roots are in Italian 19th century nationalism. I s=
ee no trace of John MacLean in the SNP brand but a lot of Garibaldi.=20
=20
=20
</blockquote></span></span>=20
</blockquote>=20
</div>=20
=20
=20
</div>=20
</div>=20
</div>=20
</div>
</blockquote>=20
</div>
</div>
</div>
------=_Part_10511_1911646887.1418861941216
Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The days of the Orange Order having any power in Scotland are now history M=
ark. In fairness to the SNP it contains both Catholics and Protestants unli=
ke the sectarian Sinn Fein/Democratic Unionist parties in N. Ireland. That =
is to be admired while the SNP have made sectarianism an offence in a socce=
r sense.<div><br></div><div>These are positives. On American imperialism it=
started from Mexico onwards and has never stopped. Now the BRIC bloc are n=
ear to surpassing America in military and economic terms. But after 2016's =
elections the probable backlash will be aimed at the BRIC states. All four =
are nuclear powers with quality air defence systems.</div><div><br></div><d=
iv>America is by nature an inward looking society with isolationism the cor=
e value of both Obama and George W. Bush. 9/11 ended thinking the American =
home front could contain a well planned attack. The old days of funding gue=
rrilla groups worldwide are now history. The romance of blood being spilled=
in Belfast or Dublin or London or Birmingham is now remote. But the dead c=
an never return and those wounded in mind and body still bear their scars a=
nd wound.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br>Sent from AOL Mobile =
Mail<br><br><br>-----Original Message-----<br>From: Mark Weiss <junction=
@EARTHLINK.NET><br>To: BRITISH-IRISH-POETS <BRITISH-IRISH-POETS@JISCM=
AIL.AC.UK><br>Sent: Wed, Dec 17, 2014 10:15 PM<br>Subject: Re: Nationali=
sm Will Always Exist<br><br><br>
<div id=3D"AOLMsgPart_1_7dad7733-f236-4233-a7d1-7e116c621cce">
<style scoped=3D"">#AOLMsgPart_1_7dad7733-f236-4233-a7d1-7e116c621cce td{co=
lor: black;} .aolReplacedBody {font-family: Geneva,Arial,Helvetica,sans-ser=
if;font-size:9pt;background-color: #ffffff;color: black;}</style>
<div id=3D"aolmail_compText" class=3D"aolReplacedBody">
This is a vast oversimplification of history, Sean. Like, that Mexico was h=
ardly our first imperialist adventure. And the special relationship h=
as varied in its impact--it was British money that funded the settlement of=
the west and built the railroads, and that dominated the US economy until =
1890, and it was the decision of the London banks not to back the confedera=
cy that won the war for the north. But I'll restrict my comments to the imm=
ediate situation in Scotland preceding the referendum. The area around the =
Clyde estuary west of Glasgow voted no, and tipped the scale. There were tw=
o factors in this that are at odds with your interpretation, neither of the=
m very pretty. One is that the area is a stronghold of the Orangemen. The o=
ther is that the major industry in the area is the trident base. I was in H=
elensburgh a couple of days before the referendum. The talk was all about t=
he economic impact if there were a yes vote and the base was closed. And th=
e area's Orange lodges made their opinion eminently clear with marches and =
political organizing. Economic insecurity motivated the vote in that area, =
and sectarian prejudice. I don't think US interests had much to do with it.
<br>
<br>
<blockquote style=3D"padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 0px; border-left: #00=
00ff 2px solid; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; text-decoration: n=
one; font-size: 10pt; font-family: arial,sans-serif; color: black;">
-----Original Message-----=20
<br>From: Sean Carey=20
<br>Sent: Dec 17, 2014 4:39 PM=20
<br>To: <a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">BRITISH-IRI=
[log in to unmask]</a>=20
<br>Subject: Re: Nationalism Will Always Exist=20
<br>
<br>But when nationalist hate and violence create death and injuries and =
end up destroying jobs then we must simply say No. Within Socialist thought=
since the sixties or earlier Internationalism was sidelined. Many genuine =
radicals thought entering nationalist parties would change them via entryis=
m. Sadly many died or suffered serious injuries as a result. The internal n=
ationalist party structures do not tolerate debate while their paramilitary=
wings are rooted in a tiny cabal calling the shots.
<div>
<br>
</div>
<div>
<br>
</div>
<div>
In my own time running literary groups I kept an open door policy which uph=
eld the right to free speech for all. To exclude any political view I could=
never allow and if people found listening to poets or bands or singers who=
supported violence they had the option to leave. Many poets indeed are nat=
ionalists with indeed many famous writers fascists. That term in a 2014 con=
text sounds corny but a lot of people in the world detest democracy. They w=
ould prefer a strong man or woman in power with no elections. Modern fascis=
ts do not wear brown shirts or indeed W.B. Yeats' blue hue. There is no Mos=
ley holding mass meetings or street battles between left and right. Ireland=
has no Eoin O' Duffy but far smoother operators in designer kit.
</div>
<div>
<br>
</div>
<div>
<br>
</div>
<div>
The benefits of "The Special Relationship" with America only works in Ameri=
ca's interest. To keep Europe divided has always been an American ploy and =
the dollars that helped kill and maim in Birmingham indeed crossed the Atla=
ntic. America started its imperial adventures in Mexico where its role is s=
till dubious. Rather than pull clear of Europe Britain should pull closer t=
o the E.U. which contains nations who view America with deep mistrust. Unde=
r Obama America has tried to retreat but the real action East of Suez keeps=
getting in the way. I am sure the State Dept. look with favour on UKIP and=
their European role models in Golden Dawn and the French National Front. T=
hese groups help America's interest.
</div>
<div>
<br>
</div>
<div>
<br>
</div>
<div>
Poets can help by opposing the drift to fascist rule on these islands by po=
inting out that we live in times of huge danger. Poems in themselves can in=
spire young and old to join those who oppose 2014 right wing thinking. In t=
he past poems helped to expose false promises and lynch mob tactics.
</div>
<div>
<br>
</div>
<div>
<br>
</div>
<div>
<br>Sent from AOL Mobile Mail
<br>
<br>
<br>-----Original Message-----
<br>From: Tim Allen <<a href=3D"mailto:0000002899e7d020-dmarc-request=
@JISCMAIL.AC.UK">[log in to unmask]</a>>
<br>To: BRITISH-IRISH-POETS <<a href=3D"mailto:BRITISH-IRISH-POETS@JI=
SCMAIL.AC.UK">[log in to unmask]</a>>
<br>Sent: Tue, Dec 16, 2014 12:01 PM
<br>Subject: Re: The wily Alex
<br>
<br>
<br>=20
<div id=3D"aolmail_AOLMsgPart_2_513692f5-ee9b-4a91-9f7f-2c9047c3b254">=
=20
<div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-=
line-break: after-white-space; " class=3D"aolmail_aolReplacedBody">
I agree with you Mark. I know the line that Sean takes on it, and David to=
o to an extent, is the view of a portion of what we might call the intellig=
encia (there Dave - your one of the inteligencia) but it is not a generally=
held view by people in general and certainly not the media. Nationalist pa=
rties are always a strange mix and I don't think they can be categorised al=
l together but need to be looked at in their own contexts. I don't fully tr=
ust Salmond but I don't fully trust anybody else either. In contradiction t=
o Sean I think there are genuine socialist strands within the SNP and cynic=
though I am I really don't think this is false front - Nicola Sturgeon see=
ms genuine to me. There are, I admit, non-socialist and even anti strands w=
ithin it but the bulk of Scotland is not behind them. I personally don't wa=
nt Scotland to go independent because I would much rather be a citizen of a=
country that included it, for a whole raft of reasons.=20
<div>=20
<br>=20
</div>=20
<div>
The UKIP thing is something else. I loathe them, but at the same time they=
do reflect the views of many. They have given a stronger voice to a nasty =
strand of thinking that has always existed in this fair land and made it OK=
to express thinly veiled racist and thuggy rightist opinions under a dange=
rously populist banner. Most of all I don't like the way the other parties =
are pandering to this, particularly Labour. I know that this is a matter of=
political strategy etc but I still don't like it and don't think it will d=
o any good in the long run. I believe that when faced with vile opinions, e=
specially ones based on scapegoating, you should counter them directly and =
stop worrying about the tabloids and opinion poles. The media, especially T=
V, has much to blame for the rise of UKIP - they early on saw Farage as goo=
d viewing material and, being the media, that's all they were concerned wit=
h. They never miss an opportunity to have him on the screen.=20
</div>=20
<div>=20
<br>=20
</div>=20
<div>
As for your own fair land - well, it's really pleasing when your democracy=
actually works for once, as with the recent Senate committee report on the=
CIA - such openness would never happen here. The torture revelations are n=
o surprise of course - we have known for years about this stuff. And as it =
has always done, everything points to the Brits being complicit - Blair, St=
raw, DAVID Miliband at the top and countless others down the line all look =
as guilty as hell but I very much doubt if anything ever comes of it. I dou=
bt too that Rifkind would be so eager to uncover secrets if it had been a C=
onservative government in power at the time. But there you go. It's never p=
ublicly said but we all know that David Miliband would probably be the curr=
ent leader of the Labour Party if he was not so closely associated with ren=
dition.=20
</div>=20
<div>=20
<br>=20
</div>=20
<div>
Bloody politics. Let's get back to something full of warmth and peaceful t=
houghts like poetry. =20
</div>=20
<div>=20
<br>=20
</div>=20
<div>
Cheers and Happy Christmas to all my readers.=20
</div>=20
<div>=20
<br>=20
</div>=20
<div>
Tim=20
</div>=20
<div>
=20
<br>=20
<div>=20
<div>
On 15 Dec 2014, at 21:37, Mark Weiss wrote:=20
</div>=20
<br class=3D"aolmail_aolmail_Apple-interchange-newline">=20
<blockquote>=20
<span class=3D"aolmail_aolmail_Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-co=
llapse: separate; font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant:=
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; =
orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: non=
e; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizo=
ntal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decor=
ations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke=
-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><span class=3D"aolmail_aolmail_Apple-styl=
e-span" style=3D"font-family: Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-si=
ze: 12px; ">I spent the month before the referendum and the two weeks after=
in Glasgow. This is decidedly not what I heard or saw.<br><br>=20
<blockquote style=3D"padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 0px; border-=
left-color: rgb(0, 0, 255); border-left-width: 2px; border-left-style: soli=
d; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-siz=
e: 10pt; font-family: arial, sans-serif; color: black; ">
-----Original Message-----=20
<span class=3D"aolmail_aolmail_Apple-converted-space"> </sp=
an>=20
<br>From: Sean Carey=20
<span class=3D"aolmail_aolmail_Apple-converted-space"> </sp=
an>=20
<br>Sent: Dec 15, 2014 10:22 AM=20
<span class=3D"aolmail_aolmail_Apple-converted-space"> </sp=
an>=20
<br>To:=20
<span class=3D"aolmail_aolmail_Apple-converted-space"> </sp=
an>=20
<a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:BRITISH-IRISH-POETS@JISCMAIL=
.AC.UK">[log in to unmask]</a>=20
<span class=3D"aolmail_aolmail_Apple-converted-space"> </sp=
an>=20
<br>Subject: The wily Alex=20
<span class=3D"aolmail_aolmail_Apple-converted-space"> </sp=
an>=20
<br>=20
<br>Salmond assumes a lot and in his timing on the Yes or No vot=
e miscalulated. The SNP is rooted in conservative thinking with their core =
support among well paid workers who would be happy to lose Labour or social=
ist thinking. It is their view that poverty is just a scam that they pay fo=
r with their taxes. They like the SNP because it rids them of Labour and En=
glish liberalism in a split from London. UKIP and the Celtic Nationalists a=
re not and never were socialists. Their roots are in Italian 19th century n=
ationalism. I see no trace of John MacLean in the SNP brand but a lot of Ga=
ribaldi.=20
<br>=20
</blockquote></span></span>=20
</blockquote>=20
</div>=20
<br>=20
</div>=20
</div>=20
</div>=20
</div>
</blockquote>=20
</div>
</div>
</div>
------=_Part_10511_1911646887.1418861941216--
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2014 19:43:23 -0500
Reply-To: British & Irish poets <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: British & Irish poets <[log in to unmask]>
From: Mark Weiss <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Nationalism Will Always Exist
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Message-ID: <[log in to unmask]>
<head><style>body{font-family: Geneva,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:=
9pt;background-color: #ffffff;color: black;}</style></head><body id=3D"comp=
Text">Let's leave it at disagreement. I'm being kind.<br><br><blockquote st=
yle=3D"padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 0px; border-left: #0000ff 2px solid;=
font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-size:=
10pt; font-family: arial,sans-serif; color: black;">-----Original Message-=
----
<br>From: Sean Carey <[log in to unmask]>
<br>Sent: Dec 17, 2014 7:19 PM
<br>To: [log in to unmask]
<br>Subject: Re: Nationalism Will Always Exist
<br><br>The days of the Orange Order having any power in Scotland are now h=
istory Mark. In fairness to the SNP it contains both Catholics and Protesta=
nts unlike the sectarian Sinn Fein/Democratic Unionist parties in N. Irelan=
d. That is to be admired while the SNP have made sectarianism an offence in=
a soccer sense.<div><br></div><div>These are positives. On American imperi=
alism it started from Mexico onwards and has never stopped. Now the BRIC bl=
oc are near to surpassing America in military and economic terms. But after=
2016's elections the probable backlash will be aimed at the BRIC states. A=
ll four are nuclear powers with quality air defence systems.</div><div><br>=
</div><div>America is by nature an inward looking society with isolationism=
the core value of both Obama and George W. Bush. 9/11 ended thinking the A=
merican home front could contain a well planned attack. The old days of fun=
ding guerrilla groups worldwide are now history. The romance of blood being=
spilled in Belfast or Dublin or London or Birmingham is now remote. But th=
e dead can never return and those wounded in mind and body still bear their=
scars and wound.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br>Sent from AOL=
Mobile Mail<br><br><br>-----Original Message-----<br>From: Mark Weiss <=
[log in to unmask]><br>To: BRITISH-IRISH-POETS <BRITISH-IRISH-POE=
[log in to unmask]><br>Sent: Wed, Dec 17, 2014 10:15 PM<br>Subject: Re: N=
ationalism Will Always Exist<br><br><br>
<div id=3D"AOLMsgPart_1_7dad7733-f236-4233-a7d1-7e116c621cce">
<style scoped=3D"">#AOLMsgPart_1_7dad7733-f236-4233-a7d1-7e116c621cce td{co=
lor: black;} .aolReplacedBody {font-family: Geneva,Arial,Helvetica,sans-ser=
if;font-size:9pt;background-color: #ffffff;color: black;}</style>
<div id=3D"aolmail_compText" class=3D"aolReplacedBody">
This is a vast oversimplification of history, Sean. Like, that Mexico was h=
ardly our first imperialist adventure. And the special relationship h=
as varied in its impact--it was British money that funded the settlement of=
the west and built the railroads, and that dominated the US economy until =
1890, and it was the decision of the London banks not to back the confedera=
cy that won the war for the north. But I'll restrict my comments to the imm=
ediate situation in Scotland preceding the referendum. The area around the =
Clyde estuary west of Glasgow voted no, and tipped the scale. There were tw=
o factors in this that are at odds with your interpretation, neither of the=
m very pretty. One is that the area is a stronghold of the Orangemen. The o=
ther is that the major industry in the area is the trident base. I was in H=
elensburgh a couple of days before the referendum. The talk was all about t=
he economic impact if there were a yes vote and the base was closed. And th=
e area's Orange lodges made their opinion eminently clear with marches and =
political organizing. Economic insecurity motivated the vote in that area, =
and sectarian prejudice. I don't think US interests had much to do with it.
<br>
<br>
<blockquote style=3D"padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 0px; border-left: #00=
00ff 2px solid; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; text-decoration: n=
one; font-size: 10pt; font-family: arial,sans-serif; color: black;">
-----Original Message-----=20
<br>From: Sean Carey=20
<br>Sent: Dec 17, 2014 4:39 PM=20
<br>To: <a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]
AC.UK">[log in to unmask]</a>=20
<br>Subject: Re: Nationalism Will Always Exist=20
<br>
<br>But when nationalist hate and violence create death and injuries and =
end up destroying jobs then we must simply say No. Within Socialist thought=
since the sixties or earlier Internationalism was sidelined. Many genuine =
radicals thought entering nationalist parties would change them via entryis=
m. Sadly many died or suffered serious injuries as a result. The internal n=
ationalist party structures do not tolerate debate while their paramilitary=
wings are rooted in a tiny cabal calling the shots.
<div>
<br>
</div>
<div>
<br>
</div>
<div>
In my own time running literary groups I kept an open door policy which uph=
eld the right to free speech for all. To exclude any political view I could=
never allow and if people found listening to poets or bands or singers who=
supported violence they had the option to leave. Many poets indeed are nat=
ionalists with indeed many famous writers fascists. That term in a 2014 con=
text sounds corny but a lot of people in the world detest democracy. They w=
ould prefer a strong man or woman in power with no elections. Modern fascis=
ts do not wear brown shirts or indeed W.B. Yeats' blue hue. There is no Mos=
ley holding mass meetings or street battles between left and right. Ireland=
has no Eoin O' Duffy but far smoother operators in designer kit.
</div>
<div>
<br>
</div>
<div>
<br>
</div>
<div>
The benefits of "The Special Relationship" with America only works in Ameri=
ca's interest. To keep Europe divided has always been an American ploy and =
the dollars that helped kill and maim in Birmingham indeed crossed the Atla=
ntic. America started its imperial adventures in Mexico where its role is s=
till dubious. Rather than pull clear of Europe Britain should pull closer t=
o the E.U. which contains nations who view America with deep mistrust. Unde=
r Obama America has tried to retreat but the real action East of Suez keeps=
getting in the way. I am sure the State Dept. look with favour on UKIP and=
their European role models in Golden Dawn and the French National Front. T=
hese groups help America's interest.
</div>
<div>
<br>
</div>
<div>
<br>
</div>
<div>
Poets can help by opposing the drift to fascist rule on these islands by po=
inting out that we live in times of huge danger. Poems in themselves can in=
spire young and old to join those who oppose 2014 right wing thinking. In t=
he past poems helped to expose false promises and lynch mob tactics.
</div>
<div>
<br>
</div>
<div>
<br>
</div>
<div>
<br>Sent from AOL Mobile Mail
<br>
<br>
<br>-----Original Message-----
<br>From: Tim Allen <<a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:0000002899e7=
[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]
AC.UK</a>>
<br>To: BRITISH-IRISH-POETS <<a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:BRIT=
[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>>
<br>Sent: Tue, Dec 16, 2014 12:01 PM
<br>Subject: Re: The wily Alex
<br>
<br>
<br>=20
<div id=3D"aolmail_AOLMsgPart_2_513692f5-ee9b-4a91-9f7f-2c9047c3b254">=
=20
<div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-=
line-break: after-white-space; " class=3D"aolmail_aolReplacedBody">
I agree with you Mark. I know the line that Sean takes on it, and David to=
o to an extent, is the view of a portion of what we might call the intellig=
encia (there Dave - your one of the inteligencia) but it is not a generally=
held view by people in general and certainly not the media. Nationalist pa=
rties are always a strange mix and I don't think they can be categorised al=
l together but need to be looked at in their own contexts. I don't fully tr=
ust Salmond but I don't fully trust anybody else either. In contradiction t=
o Sean I think there are genuine socialist strands within the SNP and cynic=
though I am I really don't think this is false front - Nicola Sturgeon see=
ms genuine to me. There are, I admit, non-socialist and even anti strands w=
ithin it but the bulk of Scotland is not behind them. I personally don't wa=
nt Scotland to go independent because I would much rather be a citizen of a=
country that included it, for a whole raft of reasons.=20
<div>=20
<br>=20
</div>=20
<div>
The UKIP thing is something else. I loathe them, but at the same time they=
do reflect the views of many. They have given a stronger voice to a nasty =
strand of thinking that has always existed in this fair land and made it OK=
to express thinly veiled racist and thuggy rightist opinions under a dange=
rously populist banner. Most of all I don't like the way the other parties =
are pandering to this, particularly Labour. I know that this is a matter of=
political strategy etc but I still don't like it and don't think it will d=
o any good in the long run. I believe that when faced with vile opinions, e=
specially ones based on scapegoating, you should counter them directly and =
stop worrying about the tabloids and opinion poles. The media, especially T=
V, has much to blame for the rise of UKIP - they early on saw Farage as goo=
d viewing material and, being the media, that's all they were concerned wit=
h. They never miss an opportunity to have him on the screen.=20
</div>=20
<div>=20
<br>=20
</div>=20
<div>
As for your own fair land - well, it's really pleasing when your democracy=
actually works for once, as with the recent Senate committee report on the=
CIA - such openness would never happen here. The torture revelations are n=
o surprise of course - we have known for years about this stuff. And as it =
has always done, everything points to the Brits being complicit - Blair, St=
raw, DAVID Miliband at the top and countless others down the line all look =
as guilty as hell but I very much doubt if anything ever comes of it. I dou=
bt too that Rifkind would be so eager to uncover secrets if it had been a C=
onservative government in power at the time. But there you go. It's never p=
ublicly said but we all know that David Miliband would probably be the curr=
ent leader of the Labour Party if he was not so closely associated with ren=
dition.=20
</div>=20
<div>=20
<br>=20
</div>=20
<div>
Bloody politics. Let's get back to something full of warmth and peaceful t=
houghts like poetry. =20
</div>=20
<div>=20
<br>=20
</div>=20
<div>
Cheers and Happy Christmas to all my readers.=20
</div>=20
<div>=20
<br>=20
</div>=20
<div>
Tim=20
</div>=20
<div>
=20
<br>=20
<div>=20
<div>
On 15 Dec 2014, at 21:37, Mark Weiss wrote:=20
</div>=20
<br class=3D"aolmail_aolmail_Apple-interchange-newline">=20
<blockquote>=20
<span class=3D"aolmail_aolmail_Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-co=
llapse: separate; font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant:=
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; =
orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: non=
e; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizo=
ntal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decor=
ations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke=
-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><span class=3D"aolmail_aolmail_Apple-styl=
e-span" style=3D"font-family: Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-si=
ze: 12px; ">I spent the month before the referendum and the two weeks after=
in Glasgow. This is decidedly not what I heard or saw.<br><br>=20
<blockquote style=3D"padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 0px; border-=
left-color: rgb(0, 0, 255); border-left-width: 2px; border-left-style: soli=
d; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-siz=
e: 10pt; font-family: arial, sans-serif; color: black; ">
-----Original Message-----=20
<span class=3D"aolmail_aolmail_Apple-converted-space"> </sp=
an>=20
<br>From: Sean Carey=20
<span class=3D"aolmail_aolmail_Apple-converted-space"> </sp=
an>=20
<br>Sent: Dec 15, 2014 10:22 AM=20
<span class=3D"aolmail_aolmail_Apple-converted-space"> </sp=
an>=20
<br>To:=20
<span class=3D"aolmail_aolmail_Apple-converted-space"> </sp=
an>=20
<a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:BRITISH-IRISH-POETS@JISCMAIL=
.AC.UK">[log in to unmask]</a>=20
<span class=3D"aolmail_aolmail_Apple-converted-space"> </sp=
an>=20
<br>Subject: The wily Alex=20
<span class=3D"aolmail_aolmail_Apple-converted-space"> </sp=
an>=20
<br>=20
<br>Salmond assumes a lot and in his timing on the Yes or No vot=
e miscalulated. The SNP is rooted in conservative thinking with their core =
support among well paid workers who would be happy to lose Labour or social=
ist thinking. It is their view that poverty is just a scam that they pay fo=
r with their taxes. They like the SNP because it rids them of Labour and En=
glish liberalism in a split from London. UKIP and the Celtic Nationalists a=
re not and never were socialists. Their roots are in Italian 19th century n=
ationalism. I see no trace of John MacLean in the SNP brand but a lot of Ga=
ribaldi.=20
<br>=20
</blockquote></span></span>=20
</blockquote>=20
</div>=20
<br>=20
</div>=20
</div>=20
</div>=20
</div>
</blockquote>=20
</div>
</div>
</div><[log in to unmask]></blockquote></body>
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2014 19:51:59 -0500
Reply-To: British & Irish poets <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: British & Irish poets <[log in to unmask]>
From: Sean Carey <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Nationalism Will Always Exist
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="----=_Part_10585_53634107.1418863919755"
Message-ID: <[log in to unmask]>
------=_Part_10585_53634107.1418863919755
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
If the Scots had indeed voted Yes the issues of the bases would have soon h=
ave created a real display of American power. I doubt if the State Dept. wo=
uld have let the Americans budge. I doubt if Mr Salmond would have moved Mr=
Obama to say a farewell to Scotland? In fact in ways it would have been Ob=
ama's delight to gain revenge for the letting go of the Pan Am suspect who =
has since passed away.
The American view that these isles are made up of Orange and Green battling=
it out are part of history. At home our stomach for bomb and bullet is tha=
nkfully more or less gone. More than enough died Mark and Americans did ind=
eed help fund our guerrilla groups both Orange and Green.=20
Anglo Irish relations have improved but work remains to be done.
Sent from AOL Mobile Mail
-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Weiss <[log in to unmask]>
To: BRITISH-IRISH-POETS <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Wed, Dec 17, 2014 10:15 PM
Subject: Re: Nationalism Will Always Exist
<div id=3D"AOLMsgPart_1_c65ad3fe-d6e6-4e08-b1e7-670621714585">
<style scoped=3D"">#AOLMsgPart_1_c65ad3fe-d6e6-4e08-b1e7-670621714585 td{co=
lor: black;} .aolReplacedBody {font-family: Geneva,Arial,Helvetica,sans-ser=
if;font-size:9pt;background-color: #ffffff;color: black;}</style>
<div id=3D"aolmail_compText" class=3D"aolReplacedBody">
This is a vast oversimplification of history, Sean. Like, that Mexico was h=
ardly our first imperialist adventure. And the special relationship has va=
ried in its impact--it was British money that funded the settlement of the =
west and built the railroads, and that dominated the US economy until 1890,=
and it was the decision of the London banks not to back the confederacy th=
at won the war for the north. But I'll restrict my comments to the immediat=
e situation in Scotland preceding the referendum. The area around the Clyde=
estuary west of Glasgow voted no, and tipped the scale. There were two fac=
tors in this that are at odds with your interpretation, neither of them ver=
y pretty. One is that the area is a stronghold of the Orangemen. The other =
is that the major industry in the area is the trident base. I was in Helens=
burgh a couple of days before the referendum. The talk was all about the ec=
onomic impact if there were a yes vote and the base was closed. And the are=
a's Orange lodges made their opinion eminently clear with marches and polit=
ical organizing. Economic insecurity motivated the vote in that area, and s=
ectarian prejudice. I don't think US interests had much to do with it.
=20
=20
<blockquote style=3D"padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 0px; border-left: #00=
00ff 2px solid; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; text-decoration: n=
one; font-size: 10pt; font-family: arial,sans-serif; color: black;">
-----Original Message-----=20
=20
From: Sean Carey=20
=20
Sent: Dec 17, 2014 4:39 PM=20
=20
To: <a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">BRITISH-IRISH-POE=
[log in to unmask]</a>=20
=20
Subject: Re: Nationalism Will Always Exist=20
=20
=20
But when nationalist hate and violence create death and injuries and end up=
destroying jobs then we must simply say No. Within Socialist thought since=
the sixties or earlier Internationalism was sidelined. Many genuine radica=
ls thought entering nationalist parties would change them via entryism. Sad=
ly many died or suffered serious injuries as a result. The internal nationa=
list party structures do not tolerate debate while their paramilitary wings=
are rooted in a tiny cabal calling the shots.=20
<div>
=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
In my own time running literary groups I kept an open door policy which uph=
eld the right to free speech for all. To exclude any political view I could=
never allow and if people found listening to poets or bands or singers who=
supported violence they had the option to leave. Many poets indeed are nat=
ionalists with indeed many famous writers fascists. That term in a 2014 con=
text sounds corny but a lot of people in the world detest democracy. They w=
ould prefer a strong man or woman in power with no elections. Modern fascis=
ts do not wear brown shirts or indeed W.B. Yeats' blue hue. There is no Mos=
ley holding mass meetings or street battles between left and right. Ireland=
has no Eoin O' Duffy but far smoother operators in designer kit.
=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
The benefits of "The Special Relationship" with America only works in Ameri=
ca's interest. To keep Europe divided has always been an American ploy and =
the dollars that helped kill and maim in Birmingham indeed crossed the Atla=
ntic. America started its imperial adventures in Mexico where its role is s=
till dubious. Rather than pull clear of Europe Britain should pull closer t=
o the E.U. which contains nations who view America with deep mistrust. Unde=
r Obama America has tried to retreat but the real action East of Suez keeps=
getting in the way. I am sure the State Dept. look with favour on UKIP and=
their European role models in Golden Dawn and the French National Front. T=
hese groups help America's interest.=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
Poets can help by opposing the drift to fascist rule on these islands by po=
inting out that we live in times of huge danger. Poems in themselves can in=
spire young and old to join those who oppose 2014 right wing thinking. In t=
he past poems helped to expose false promises and lynch mob tactics.
=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
Sent from AOL Mobile Mail
=20
=20
=20
-----Original Message-----
=20
From: Tim Allen <<a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]
AC.UK">[log in to unmask]</a>>
=20
To: BRITISH-IRISH-POETS <<a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]
UK">[log in to unmask]</a>>
=20
Sent: Tue, Dec 16, 2014 12:01 PM
=20
Subject: Re: The wily Alex
=20
=20
=20
=20
<div id=3D"aolmail_AOLMsgPart_2_513692f5-ee9b-4a91-9f7f-2c9047c3b254">=
=20
<div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-=
line-break: after-white-space; " class=3D"aolmail_aolReplacedBody">
I agree with you Mark. I know the line that Sean takes on it, and David to=
o to an extent, is the view of a portion of what we might call the intellig=
encia (there Dave - your one of the inteligencia) but it is not a generally=
held view by people in general and certainly not the media. Nationalist pa=
rties are always a strange mix and I don't think they can be categorised al=
l together but need to be looked at in their own contexts. I don't fully tr=
ust Salmond but I don't fully trust anybody else either. In contradiction t=
o Sean I think there are genuine socialist strands within the SNP and cynic=
though I am I really don't think this is false front - Nicola Sturgeon see=
ms genuine to me. There are, I admit, non-socialist and even anti strands w=
ithin it but the bulk of Scotland is not behind them. I personally don't wa=
nt Scotland to go independent because I would much rather be a citizen of a=
country that included it, for a whole raft of reasons.=20
<div>=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
The UKIP thing is something else. I loathe them, but at the same time they=
do reflect the views of many. They have given a stronger voice to a nasty =
strand of thinking that has always existed in this fair land and made it OK=
to express thinly veiled racist and thuggy rightist opinions under a dange=
rously populist banner. Most of all I don't like the way the other parties =
are pandering to this, particularly Labour. I know that this is a matter of=
political strategy etc but I still don't like it and don't think it will d=
o any good in the long run. I believe that when faced with vile opinions, e=
specially ones based on scapegoating, you should counter them directly and =
stop worrying about the tabloids and opinion poles. The media, especially T=
V, has much to blame for the rise of UKIP - they early on saw Farage as goo=
d viewing material and, being the media, that's all they were concerned wit=
h. They never miss an opportunity to have him on the screen.=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
As for your own fair land - well, it's really pleasing when your democracy=
actually works for once, as with the recent Senate committee report on the=
CIA - such openness would never happen here. The torture revelations are n=
o surprise of course - we have known for years about this stuff. And as it =
has always done, everything points to the Brits being complicit - Blair, St=
raw, DAVID Miliband at the top and countless others down the line all look =
as guilty as hell but I very much doubt if anything ever comes of it. I dou=
bt too that Rifkind would be so eager to uncover secrets if it had been a C=
onservative government in power at the time. But there you go. It's never p=
ublicly said but we all know that David Miliband would probably be the curr=
ent leader of the Labour Party if he was not so closely associated with ren=
dition.=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
Bloody politics. Let's get back to something full of warmth and peaceful t=
houghts like poetry. =20
=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
Cheers and Happy Christmas to all my readers.=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
Tim=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
<div>=20
<div>
On 15 Dec 2014, at 21:37, Mark Weiss wrote:=20
=20
<br class=3D"aolmail_aolmail_Apple-interchange-newline">=20
<blockquote>=20
<span class=3D"aolmail_aolmail_Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-co=
llapse: separate; font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant:=
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; =
orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: non=
e; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizo=
ntal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decor=
ations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke=
-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><span class=3D"aolmail_aolmail_Apple-styl=
e-span" style=3D"font-family: Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-si=
ze: 12px; ">I spent the month before the referendum and the two weeks after=
in Glasgow. This is decidedly not what I heard or saw.
=20
<blockquote style=3D"padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 0px; border-=
left-color: rgb(0, 0, 255); border-left-width: 2px; border-left-style: soli=
d; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-siz=
e: 10pt; font-family: arial, sans-serif; color: black; ">
-----Original Message-----=20
<span class=3D"aolmail_aolmail_Apple-converted-space"> </span>=
=20
=20
From: Sean Carey=20
<span class=3D"aolmail_aolmail_Apple-converted-space"> </span>=
=20
=20
Sent: Dec 15, 2014 10:22 AM=20
<span class=3D"aolmail_aolmail_Apple-converted-space"> </span>=
=20
=20
To:=20
<span class=3D"aolmail_aolmail_Apple-converted-space"> </span>=
=20
<a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:BRITISH-IRISH-POETS@JISCMAIL=
.AC.UK">[log in to unmask]</a>=20
<span class=3D"aolmail_aolmail_Apple-converted-space"> </span>=
=20
=20
Subject: The wily Alex=20
<span class=3D"aolmail_aolmail_Apple-converted-space"> </span>=
=20
=20
=20
=20
Salmond assumes a lot and in his timing on the Yes or No vote miscalulated.=
The SNP is rooted in conservative thinking with their core support among w=
ell paid workers who would be happy to lose Labour or socialist thinking. I=
t is their view that poverty is just a scam that they pay for with their ta=
xes. They like the SNP because it rids them of Labour and English liberalis=
m in a split from London. UKIP and the Celtic Nationalists are not and neve=
r were socialists. Their roots are in Italian 19th century nationalism. I s=
ee no trace of John MacLean in the SNP brand but a lot of Garibaldi.=20
=20
=20
</blockquote></span></span>=20
</blockquote>=20
</div>=20
=20
=20
</div>=20
</div>=20
</div>=20
</div>
</blockquote>=20
</div>
</div>
</div>
------=_Part_10585_53634107.1418863919755
Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
If the Scots had indeed voted Yes the issues of the bases would have soon h=
ave created a real display of American power. I doubt if the State Dept. wo=
uld have let the Americans budge. I doubt if Mr Salmond would have moved Mr=
Obama to say a farewell to Scotland? In fact in ways it would have been Ob=
ama's delight to gain revenge for the letting go of the Pan Am suspect who =
has since passed away.<div><br></div><div>The American view that these isle=
s are made up of Orange and Green battling it out are part of history. At h=
ome our stomach for bomb and bullet is thankfully more or less gone. More t=
han enough died Mark and Americans did indeed help fund our guerrilla group=
s both Orange and Green. </div><div><br></div><div>Anglo Irish relatio=
ns have improved but work remains to be done.</div><div><br>Sent from AOL M=
obile Mail<br><br><br>-----Original Message-----<br>From: Mark Weiss <ju=
[log in to unmask]><br>To: BRITISH-IRISH-POETS <BRITISH-IRISH-POETS=
@JISCMAIL.AC.UK><br>Sent: Wed, Dec 17, 2014 10:15 PM<br>Subject: Re: Nat=
ionalism Will Always Exist<br><br><br>
<div id=3D"AOLMsgPart_1_c65ad3fe-d6e6-4e08-b1e7-670621714585">
<style scoped=3D"">#AOLMsgPart_1_c65ad3fe-d6e6-4e08-b1e7-670621714585 td{co=
lor: black;} .aolReplacedBody {font-family: Geneva,Arial,Helvetica,sans-ser=
if;font-size:9pt;background-color: #ffffff;color: black;}</style>
<div id=3D"aolmail_compText" class=3D"aolReplacedBody">
This is a vast oversimplification of history, Sean. Like, that Mexico was h=
ardly our first imperialist adventure. And the special relationship h=
as varied in its impact--it was British money that funded the settlement of=
the west and built the railroads, and that dominated the US economy until =
1890, and it was the decision of the London banks not to back the confedera=
cy that won the war for the north. But I'll restrict my comments to the imm=
ediate situation in Scotland preceding the referendum. The area around the =
Clyde estuary west of Glasgow voted no, and tipped the scale. There were tw=
o factors in this that are at odds with your interpretation, neither of the=
m very pretty. One is that the area is a stronghold of the Orangemen. The o=
ther is that the major industry in the area is the trident base. I was in H=
elensburgh a couple of days before the referendum. The talk was all about t=
he economic impact if there were a yes vote and the base was closed. And th=
e area's Orange lodges made their opinion eminently clear with marches and =
political organizing. Economic insecurity motivated the vote in that area, =
and sectarian prejudice. I don't think US interests had much to do with it.
<br>
<br>
<blockquote style=3D"padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 0px; border-left: #00=
00ff 2px solid; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; text-decoration: n=
one; font-size: 10pt; font-family: arial,sans-serif; color: black;">
-----Original Message-----=20
<br>From: Sean Carey=20
<br>Sent: Dec 17, 2014 4:39 PM=20
<br>To: <a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">BRITISH-IRI=
[log in to unmask]</a>=20
<br>Subject: Re: Nationalism Will Always Exist=20
<br>
<br>But when nationalist hate and violence create death and injuries and =
end up destroying jobs then we must simply say No. Within Socialist thought=
since the sixties or earlier Internationalism was sidelined. Many genuine =
radicals thought entering nationalist parties would change them via entryis=
m. Sadly many died or suffered serious injuries as a result. The internal n=
ationalist party structures do not tolerate debate while their paramilitary=
wings are rooted in a tiny cabal calling the shots.
<div>
<br>
</div>
<div>
<br>
</div>
<div>
In my own time running literary groups I kept an open door policy which uph=
eld the right to free speech for all. To exclude any political view I could=
never allow and if people found listening to poets or bands or singers who=
supported violence they had the option to leave. Many poets indeed are nat=
ionalists with indeed many famous writers fascists. That term in a 2014 con=
text sounds corny but a lot of people in the world detest democracy. They w=
ould prefer a strong man or woman in power with no elections. Modern fascis=
ts do not wear brown shirts or indeed W.B. Yeats' blue hue. There is no Mos=
ley holding mass meetings or street battles between left and right. Ireland=
has no Eoin O' Duffy but far smoother operators in designer kit.
</div>
<div>
<br>
</div>
<div>
<br>
</div>
<div>
The benefits of "The Special Relationship" with America only works in Ameri=
ca's interest. To keep Europe divided has always been an American ploy and =
the dollars that helped kill and maim in Birmingham indeed crossed the Atla=
ntic. America started its imperial adventures in Mexico where its role is s=
till dubious. Rather than pull clear of Europe Britain should pull closer t=
o the E.U. which contains nations who view America with deep mistrust. Unde=
r Obama America has tried to retreat but the real action East of Suez keeps=
getting in the way. I am sure the State Dept. look with favour on UKIP and=
their European role models in Golden Dawn and the French National Front. T=
hese groups help America's interest.
</div>
<div>
<br>
</div>
<div>
<br>
</div>
<div>
Poets can help by opposing the drift to fascist rule on these islands by po=
inting out that we live in times of huge danger. Poems in themselves can in=
spire young and old to join those who oppose 2014 right wing thinking. In t=
he past poems helped to expose false promises and lynch mob tactics.
</div>
<div>
<br>
</div>
<div>
<br>
</div>
<div>
<br>Sent from AOL Mobile Mail
<br>
<br>
<br>-----Original Message-----
<br>From: Tim Allen <<a href=3D"mailto:0000002899e7d020-dmarc-request=
@JISCMAIL.AC.UK">[log in to unmask]</a>>
<br>To: BRITISH-IRISH-POETS <<a href=3D"mailto:BRITISH-IRISH-POETS@JI=
SCMAIL.AC.UK">[log in to unmask]</a>>
<br>Sent: Tue, Dec 16, 2014 12:01 PM
<br>Subject: Re: The wily Alex
<br>
<br>
<br>=20
<div id=3D"aolmail_AOLMsgPart_2_513692f5-ee9b-4a91-9f7f-2c9047c3b254">=
=20
<div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-=
line-break: after-white-space; " class=3D"aolmail_aolReplacedBody">
I agree with you Mark. I know the line that Sean takes on it, and David to=
o to an extent, is the view of a portion of what we might call the intellig=
encia (there Dave - your one of the inteligencia) but it is not a generally=
held view by people in general and certainly not the media. Nationalist pa=
rties are always a strange mix and I don't think they can be categorised al=
l together but need to be looked at in their own contexts. I don't fully tr=
ust Salmond but I don't fully trust anybody else either. In contradiction t=
o Sean I think there are genuine socialist strands within the SNP and cynic=
though I am I really don't think this is false front - Nicola Sturgeon see=
ms genuine to me. There are, I admit, non-socialist and even anti strands w=
ithin it but the bulk of Scotland is not behind them. I personally don't wa=
nt Scotland to go independent because I would much rather be a citizen of a=
country that included it, for a whole raft of reasons.=20
<div>=20
<br>=20
</div>=20
<div>
The UKIP thing is something else. I loathe them, but at the same time they=
do reflect the views of many. They have given a stronger voice to a nasty =
strand of thinking that has always existed in this fair land and made it OK=
to express thinly veiled racist and thuggy rightist opinions under a dange=
rously populist banner. Most of all I don't like the way the other parties =
are pandering to this, particularly Labour. I know that this is a matter of=
political strategy etc but I still don't like it and don't think it will d=
o any good in the long run. I believe that when faced with vile opinions, e=
specially ones based on scapegoating, you should counter them directly and =
stop worrying about the tabloids and opinion poles. The media, especially T=
V, has much to blame for the rise of UKIP - they early on saw Farage as goo=
d viewing material and, being the media, that's all they were concerned wit=
h. They never miss an opportunity to have him on the screen.=20
</div>=20
<div>=20
<br>=20
</div>=20
<div>
As for your own fair land - well, it's really pleasing when your democracy=
actually works for once, as with the recent Senate committee report on the=
CIA - such openness would never happen here. The torture revelations are n=
o surprise of course - we have known for years about this stuff. And as it =
has always done, everything points to the Brits being complicit - Blair, St=
raw, DAVID Miliband at the top and countless others down the line all look =
as guilty as hell but I very much doubt if anything ever comes of it. I dou=
bt too that Rifkind would be so eager to uncover secrets if it had been a C=
onservative government in power at the time. But there you go. It's never p=
ublicly said but we all know that David Miliband would probably be the curr=
ent leader of the Labour Party if he was not so closely associated with ren=
dition.=20
</div>=20
<div>=20
<br>=20
</div>=20
<div>
Bloody politics. Let's get back to something full of warmth and peaceful t=
houghts like poetry. =20
</div>=20
<div>=20
<br>=20
</div>=20
<div>
Cheers and Happy Christmas to all my readers.=20
</div>=20
<div>=20
<br>=20
</div>=20
<div>
Tim=20
</div>=20
<div>
=20
<br>=20
<div>=20
<div>
On 15 Dec 2014, at 21:37, Mark Weiss wrote:=20
</div>=20
<br class=3D"aolmail_aolmail_Apple-interchange-newline">=20
<blockquote>=20
<span class=3D"aolmail_aolmail_Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-co=
llapse: separate; font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant:=
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; =
orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: non=
e; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizo=
ntal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decor=
ations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke=
-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><span class=3D"aolmail_aolmail_Apple-styl=
e-span" style=3D"font-family: Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-si=
ze: 12px; ">I spent the month before the referendum and the two weeks after=
in Glasgow. This is decidedly not what I heard or saw.<br><br>=20
<blockquote style=3D"padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 0px; border-=
left-color: rgb(0, 0, 255); border-left-width: 2px; border-left-style: soli=
d; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-siz=
e: 10pt; font-family: arial, sans-serif; color: black; ">
-----Original Message-----=20
<span class=3D"aolmail_aolmail_Apple-converted-space"> </sp=
an>=20
<br>From: Sean Carey=20
<span class=3D"aolmail_aolmail_Apple-converted-space"> </sp=
an>=20
<br>Sent: Dec 15, 2014 10:22 AM=20
<span class=3D"aolmail_aolmail_Apple-converted-space"> </sp=
an>=20
<br>To:=20
<span class=3D"aolmail_aolmail_Apple-converted-space"> </sp=
an>=20
<a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:BRITISH-IRISH-POETS@JISCMAIL=
.AC.UK">[log in to unmask]</a>=20
<span class=3D"aolmail_aolmail_Apple-converted-space"> </sp=
an>=20
<br>Subject: The wily Alex=20
<span class=3D"aolmail_aolmail_Apple-converted-space"> </sp=
an>=20
<br>=20
<br>Salmond assumes a lot and in his timing on the Yes or No vot=
e miscalulated. The SNP is rooted in conservative thinking with their core =
support among well paid workers who would be happy to lose Labour or social=
ist thinking. It is their view that poverty is just a scam that they pay fo=
r with their taxes. They like the SNP because it rids them of Labour and En=
glish liberalism in a split from London. UKIP and the Celtic Nationalists a=
re not and never were socialists. Their roots are in Italian 19th century n=
ationalism. I see no trace of John MacLean in the SNP brand but a lot of Ga=
ribaldi.=20
<br>=20
</blockquote></span></span>=20
</blockquote>=20
</div>=20
<br>=20
</div>=20
</div>=20
</div>=20
</div>
</blockquote>=20
</div>
</div>
</div>
------=_Part_10585_53634107.1418863919755--
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2014 21:35:28 +0000
Reply-To: British & Irish poets <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: British & Irish poets <[log in to unmask]>
From: David Latane <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Nationalism Will Always Exist
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="----=_Part_1006848_20755482.1418938528138"
Message-ID: <[log in to unmask]>
------=_Part_1006848_20755482.1418938528138
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
American subs haven't been based in Holy Loch since 1992.
What's all this Orange Lodge stuff? Do you mean that when I was in Glasgow =
last summer during the world cup those marchers weren't Dutch fans?
Two of the worst bipartisan policies in the US, both of long standing, were=
the stance towards Cuba and the blind eye to the IRA.
David Latane
http://www.standmagazine.org (Stand Magazine, Leeds)
From: Sean Carey <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2014 7:51 PM
Subject: Re: Nationalism Will Always Exist
=20
If the Scots had indeed voted Yes the issues of the bases would have soon h=
ave created a real display of American power. I doubt if the State Dept. wo=
uld have let the Americans budge. I doubt if Mr Salmond would have moved Mr=
Obama to say a farewell to Scotland? In fact in ways it would have been Ob=
ama's delight to gain revenge for the letting go of the Pan Am suspect who =
has since passed away.
The American view that these isles are made up of Orange and Green battling=
it out are part of history. At home our stomach for bomb and bullet is tha=
nkfully more or less gone. More than enough died Mark and Americans did ind=
eed help fund our guerrilla groups both Orange and Green.=C2=A0
Anglo Irish relations have improved but work remains to be done.
Sent from AOL Mobile Mail
-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Weiss <[log in to unmask]>
To: BRITISH-IRISH-POETS <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Wed, Dec 17, 2014 10:15 PM
Subject: Re: Nationalism Will Always Exist
#yiv1117164411 #yiv1117164411AOLMsgPart_1_c65ad3fe-d6e6-4e08-b1e7-670621714=
585 td{color:black;}#yiv1117164411 .yiv1117164411aolReplacedBody {font-fami=
ly:Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:9pt;background-color:#fff=
fff;color:black;}This is a vast oversimplification of history, Sean. Like, =
that Mexico was hardly our first imperialist adventure.=C2=A0 And the speci=
al relationship has varied in its impact--it was British money that funded =
the settlement of the west and built the railroads, and that dominated the =
US economy until 1890, and it was the decision of the London banks not to b=
ack the confederacy that won the war for the north. But I'll restrict my co=
mments to the immediate situation in Scotland preceding the referendum. The=
area around the Clyde estuary west of Glasgow voted no, and tipped the sca=
le. There were two factors in this that are at odds with your interpretatio=
n, neither of them very pretty. One is that the area is a stronghold of the=
Orangemen. The other is that the major industry in the area is the trident=
base. I was in Helensburgh a couple of days before the referendum. The tal=
k was all about the economic impact if there were a yes vote and the base w=
as closed. And the area's Orange lodges made their opinion eminently clear =
with marches and political organizing. Economic insecurity motivated the vo=
te in that area, and sectarian prejudice. I don't think US interests had mu=
ch to do with it.=20
=20
=20
-----Original Message-----=20
From: Sean Carey=20
Sent: Dec 17, 2014 4:39 PM=20
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Nationalism Will Always Exist=20
=20
But when nationalist hate and violence create death and injuries and end up=
destroying jobs then we must simply say No. Within Socialist thought since=
the sixties or earlier Internationalism was sidelined. Many genuine radica=
ls thought entering nationalist parties would change them via entryism. Sad=
ly many died or suffered serious injuries as a result. The internal nationa=
list party structures do not tolerate debate while their paramilitary wings=
are rooted in a tiny cabal calling the shots.=C2=A0 =20
=20
In my own time running literary groups I kept an open door policy which u=
pheld the right to free speech for all. To exclude any political view I cou=
ld never allow and if people found listening to poets or bands or singers w=
ho supported violence they had the option to leave. Many poets indeed are n=
ationalists with indeed many famous writers fascists. That term in a 2014 c=
ontext sounds corny but a lot of people in the world detest democracy. They=
would prefer a strong man or woman in power with no elections. Modern fasc=
ists do not wear brown shirts or indeed W.B. Yeats' blue hue. There is no M=
osley holding mass meetings or street battles between left and right. Irela=
nd has no Eoin O' Duffy but far smoother operators in designer kit. =20
=20
The benefits of "The Special Relationship" with America only works in Ame=
rica's interest. To keep Europe divided has always been an American ploy an=
d the dollars that helped kill and maim in Birmingham indeed crossed the At=
lantic. America started its imperial adventures in Mexico where its role is=
still dubious. Rather than pull clear of Europe Britain should pull closer=
to the E.U. which contains nations who view America with deep mistrust. Un=
der Obama America has tried to retreat but the real action East of Suez kee=
ps getting in the way. I am sure the State Dept. look with favour on UKIP a=
nd their European role models in Golden Dawn and the French National Front.=
These groups help America's interest.=C2=A0 =20
=20
Poets can help by opposing the drift to fascist rule on these islands by =
pointing out that we live in times of huge danger. Poems in themselves can =
inspire young and old to join those who oppose 2014 right wing thinking. In=
the past poems helped to expose false promises and lynch mob tactics. =20
=20
=20
Sent from AOL Mobile Mail=20
=20
=20
-----Original Message-----=20
From: Tim Allen <[log in to unmask]>=20
To: BRITISH-IRISH-POETS <[log in to unmask]>=20
Sent: Tue, Dec 16, 2014 12:01 PM=20
Subject: Re: The wily Alex=20
=20
=20
I agree with you Mark. I know the line that Sean takes on it, and David =
too to an extent, is the view of a portion of what we might call the intell=
igencia (there Dave - your one of the inteligencia) but it is not a general=
ly held view by people in general and certainly not the media. Nationalist =
parties are always a strange mix and I don't think they can be categorised =
all together but need to be looked at in their own contexts. I don't fully =
trust Salmond but I don't fully trust anybody else either. In contradiction=
to Sean I think there are genuine socialist strands within the SNP and cyn=
ic though I am I really don't think this is false front - Nicola Sturgeon s=
eems genuine to me. There are, I admit, non-socialist and even anti strands=
within it but the bulk of Scotland is not behind them. I personally don't =
want Scotland to go independent because I would much rather be a citizen of=
a country that included it, for a whole raft of reasons. =20
The UKIP thing is something else. I loathe them, but at the same time th=
ey do reflect the views of many. They have given a stronger voice to a nast=
y strand of thinking that has always existed in this fair land and made it =
OK to express thinly veiled racist and thuggy rightist opinions under a dan=
gerously populist banner. Most of all I don't like the way the other partie=
s are pandering to this, particularly Labour. I know that this is a matter =
of political strategy etc but I still don't like it and don't think it will=
do any good in the long run. I believe that when faced with vile opinions,=
especially ones based on scapegoating, you should counter them directly an=
d stop worrying about the tabloids and opinion poles. The media, especially=
TV, has much to blame for the rise of UKIP - they early on saw Farage as g=
ood viewing material and, being the media, that's all they were concerned w=
ith. They never miss an opportunity to have him on the screen. =20
As for your own fair land - well, it's really pleasing when your democra=
cy actually works for once, as with the recent Senate committee report on t=
he CIA - such openness would never happen here. The torture revelations are=
no surprise of course - we have known for years about this stuff. And as i=
t has always done, everything points to the Brits being complicit - Blair, =
Straw, DAVID Miliband at the top and countless others down the line all loo=
k as guilty as hell but I very much doubt if anything ever comes of it. I d=
oubt too that Rifkind would be so eager to uncover secrets if it had been a=
Conservative government in power at the time. But there you go. It's never=
publicly said but we all know that David Miliband would probably be the cu=
rrent leader of the Labour Party if he was not so closely associated with r=
endition. =20
Bloody politics. Let's get back to something full of warmth and peaceful=
thoughts like poetry.=C2=A0 =20
Cheers and Happy Christmas to all my readers. =20
Tim =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=20
On 15 Dec 2014, at 21:37, Mark Weiss wrote: =20
=20
I spent the month before the referendum and the two weeks after in Glasgow=
. This is decidedly not what I heard or saw.
=20
-----Original Message----- =C2=A0=20
From: Sean Carey =C2=A0=20
Sent: Dec 15, 2014 10:22 AM =C2=A0=20
To: =C2=A0 [log in to unmask] =C2=A0=20
Subject: The wily Alex =C2=A0=20
=20
Salmond assumes a lot and in his timing on the Yes or No vote miscalulated.=
The SNP is rooted in conservative thinking with their core support among w=
ell paid workers who would be happy to lose Labour or socialist thinking. I=
t is their view that poverty is just a scam that they pay for with their ta=
xes. They like the SNP because it rids them of Labour and English liberalis=
m in a split from London. UKIP and the Celtic Nationalists are not and neve=
r were socialists. Their roots are in Italian 19th century nationalism. I s=
ee no trace of John MacLean in the SNP brand but a lot of Garibaldi.=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
------=_Part_1006848_20755482.1418938528138
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<html><body><div style=3D"color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:ve=
rdana, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:16px"><div dir=3D"ltr" id=3D"yui_3_1=
6_0_1_1418938032008_3273"><span id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1418938032008_3274">Amer=
ican subs haven't been based in Holy Loch since 1992.</span></div><div dir=
=3D"ltr" id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1418938032008_3273"><span id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_14=
18938032008_3274"><br></span></div><div dir=3D"ltr" id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1418=
938032008_3273">What's all this Orange Lodge stuff? Do you mean that when I=
was in Glasgow last summer during the world cup those marchers weren't Dut=
ch fans?</div><div dir=3D"ltr" id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1418938032008_3273"><br><=
/div><div dir=3D"ltr" id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1418938032008_3273">Two of the wor=
st bipartisan policies in the US, both of long standing, were the stance to=
wards Cuba and the blind eye to the IRA.</div><div dir=3D"ltr" id=3D"yui_3_=
16_0_1_1418938032008_3273"><br></div><div class=3D"signature" id=3D"yui_3_1=
6_0_1_1418938032008_3511">David Latane<br> http://www.standmagazine.org (St=
and Magazine, Leeds)</div><br> <div style=3D"font-family: verdana, helveti=
ca, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;" id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1418938032008_3514"> <=
div style=3D"font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, =
Lucida Grande, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;" id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_14189380320=
08_3513"> <div dir=3D"ltr" id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1418938032008_3512"> <hr size=
=3D"1" id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1418938032008_3778"> <font size=3D"2" face=3D"Ar=
ial" id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1418938032008_3515"> <b><span style=3D"font-weight:=
bold;">From:</span></b> Sean Carey <[log in to unmask]><br> <b><sp=
an style=3D"font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> BRITISH-IRISH-POETS@JISCMAIL=
.AC.UK <br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Wednesda=
y, December 17, 2014 7:51 PM<br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">Subj=
ect:</span></b> Re: Nationalism Will Always Exist<br> </font> </div> <div c=
lass=3D"y_msg_container" id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1418938032008_3516"><br><div id=
=3D"yiv1117164411"><div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1418938032008_3517">If the Scots=
had indeed voted Yes the issues of the bases would have soon have created =
a real display of American power. I doubt if the State Dept. would have let=
the Americans budge. I doubt if Mr Salmond would have moved Mr Obama to sa=
y a farewell to Scotland? In fact in ways it would have been Obama's deligh=
t to gain revenge for the letting go of the Pan Am suspect who has since pa=
ssed away.<div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1418938032008_3776"><br clear=3D"none"></=
div><div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1418938032008_3518">The American view that thes=
e isles are made up of Orange and Green battling it out are part of history=
. At home our stomach for bomb and bullet is thankfully more or less gone. =
More than enough died Mark and Americans did indeed help fund our guerrilla=
groups both Orange and Green. </div><div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_141893803=
2008_3519"><br clear=3D"none"></div><div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1418938032008_3=
544">Anglo Irish relations have improved but work remains to be done.</div>=
<div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1418938032008_3520"><br clear=3D"none">Sent from AO=
L Mobile Mail<br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none">-----=
Original Message-----<br clear=3D"none">From: Mark Weiss <junction@EARTH=
LINK.NET><br clear=3D"none">To: BRITISH-IRISH-POETS <BRITISH-IRISH-PO=
[log in to unmask]><br clear=3D"none">Sent: Wed, Dec 17, 2014 10:15 PM<b=
r clear=3D"none">Subject: Re: Nationalism Will Always Exist<br clear=3D"non=
e"><br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none">
<div class=3D"qtdSeparateBR"><br><br></div><div class=3D"yiv1117164411yqt63=
69131165" id=3D"yiv1117164411yqt86284"><div id=3D"yiv1117164411AOLMsgPart_1=
_c65ad3fe-d6e6-4e08-b1e7-670621714585">
<style>#yiv1117164411 #yiv1117164411AOLMsgPart_1_c65ad3fe-d6e6-4e08-b1e7-67=
0621714585 td{color:black;}#yiv1117164411 .yiv1117164411aolReplacedBody {fo=
nt-family:Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:9pt;background-col=
or:#ffffff;color:black;}</style>
<div class=3D"yiv1117164411aolReplacedBody" id=3D"yiv1117164411aolmail_comp=
Text">
This is a vast oversimplification of history, Sean. Like, that Mexico was h=
ardly our first imperialist adventure. And the special relationship h=
as varied in its impact--it was British money that funded the settlement of=
the west and built the railroads, and that dominated the US economy until =
1890, and it was the decision of the London banks not to back the confedera=
cy that won the war for the north. But I'll restrict my comments to the imm=
ediate situation in Scotland preceding the referendum. The area around the =
Clyde estuary west of Glasgow voted no, and tipped the scale. There were tw=
o factors in this that are at odds with your interpretation, neither of the=
m very pretty. One is that the area is a stronghold of the Orangemen. The o=
ther is that the major industry in the area is the trident base. I was in H=
elensburgh a couple of days before the referendum. The talk was all about t=
he economic impact if there were a yes vote and the base was closed. And th=
e area's Orange lodges made their opinion eminently clear with marches and =
political organizing. Economic insecurity motivated the vote in that area, =
and sectarian prejudice. I don't think US interests had much to do with it.
<br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
<blockquote style=3D"padding-left:5px;margin-left:0px;border-left:#0000ff =
2px solid;font-weight:normal;font-style:normal;text-decoration:none;font-si=
ze:10pt;font-family:arial, sans-serif;color:black;">
-----Original Message-----=20
<br clear=3D"none">From: Sean Carey=20
<br clear=3D"none">Sent: Dec 17, 2014 4:39 PM=20
<br clear=3D"none">To: <a rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mail=
to:[log in to unmask]" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:BRI=
[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>=20
<br clear=3D"none">Subject: Re: Nationalism Will Always Exist=20
<br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">But when nationalist hate and violence create death an=
d injuries and end up destroying jobs then we must simply say No. Within So=
cialist thought since the sixties or earlier Internationalism was sidelined=
. Many genuine radicals thought entering nationalist parties would change t=
hem via entryism. Sadly many died or suffered serious injuries as a result.=
The internal nationalist party structures do not tolerate debate while the=
ir paramilitary wings are rooted in a tiny cabal calling the shots.
<div>
<br clear=3D"none">
</div>
<div>
<br clear=3D"none">
</div>
<div>
In my own time running literary groups I kept an open door policy which uph=
eld the right to free speech for all. To exclude any political view I could=
never allow and if people found listening to poets or bands or singers who=
supported violence they had the option to leave. Many poets indeed are nat=
ionalists with indeed many famous writers fascists. That term in a 2014 con=
text sounds corny but a lot of people in the world detest democracy. They w=
ould prefer a strong man or woman in power with no elections. Modern fascis=
ts do not wear brown shirts or indeed W.B. Yeats' blue hue. There is no Mos=
ley holding mass meetings or street battles between left and right. Ireland=
has no Eoin O' Duffy but far smoother operators in designer kit.
</div>
<div>
<br clear=3D"none">
</div>
<div>
<br clear=3D"none">
</div>
<div>
The benefits of "The Special Relationship" with America only works in Ameri=
ca's interest. To keep Europe divided has always been an American ploy and =
the dollars that helped kill and maim in Birmingham indeed crossed the Atla=
ntic. America started its imperial adventures in Mexico where its role is s=
till dubious. Rather than pull clear of Europe Britain should pull closer t=
o the E.U. which contains nations who view America with deep mistrust. Unde=
r Obama America has tried to retreat but the real action East of Suez keeps=
getting in the way. I am sure the State Dept. look with favour on UKIP and=
their European role models in Golden Dawn and the French National Front. T=
hese groups help America's interest.
</div>
<div>
<br clear=3D"none">
</div>
<div>
<br clear=3D"none">
</div>
<div>
Poets can help by opposing the drift to fascist rule on these islands by po=
inting out that we live in times of huge danger. Poems in themselves can in=
spire young and old to join those who oppose 2014 right wing thinking. In t=
he past poems helped to expose false promises and lynch mob tactics.
</div>
<div>
<br clear=3D"none">
</div>
<div>
<br clear=3D"none">
</div>
<div>
<br clear=3D"none">Sent from AOL Mobile Mail
<br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">-----Original Message-----
<br clear=3D"none">From: Tim Allen <<a rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect=
" ymailto=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" target=
=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">0=
[log in to unmask]</a>>
<br clear=3D"none">To: BRITISH-IRISH-POETS <<a rel=3D"nofollow" shape=
=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" target=3D"_=
blank" href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">BRITISH-IRISH-POE=
[log in to unmask]</a>>
<br clear=3D"none">Sent: Tue, Dec 16, 2014 12:01 PM
<br clear=3D"none">Subject: Re: The wily Alex
<br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">=20
<div id=3D"yiv1117164411aolmail_AOLMsgPart_2_513692f5-ee9b-4a91-9f7f-2c9=
047c3b254">=20
<div class=3D"yiv1117164411aolmail_aolReplacedBody" style=3D"word-wrap:=
break-word;">
I agree with you Mark. I know the line that Sean takes on it, and David to=
o to an extent, is the view of a portion of what we might call the intellig=
encia (there Dave - your one of the inteligencia) but it is not a generally=
held view by people in general and certainly not the media. Nationalist pa=
rties are always a strange mix and I don't think they can be categorised al=
l together but need to be looked at in their own contexts. I don't fully tr=
ust Salmond but I don't fully trust anybody else either. In contradiction t=
o Sean I think there are genuine socialist strands within the SNP and cynic=
though I am I really don't think this is false front - Nicola Sturgeon see=
ms genuine to me. There are, I admit, non-socialist and even anti strands w=
ithin it but the bulk of Scotland is not behind them. I personally don't wa=
nt Scotland to go independent because I would much rather be a citizen of a=
country that included it, for a whole raft of reasons.=20
<div>=20
<br clear=3D"none">=20
</div>=20
<div>
The UKIP thing is something else. I loathe them, but at the same time they=
do reflect the views of many. They have given a stronger voice to a nasty =
strand of thinking that has always existed in this fair land and made it OK=
to express thinly veiled racist and thuggy rightist opinions under a dange=
rously populist banner. Most of all I don't like the way the other parties =
are pandering to this, particularly Labour. I know that this is a matter of=
political strategy etc but I still don't like it and don't think it will d=
o any good in the long run. I believe that when faced with vile opinions, e=
specially ones based on scapegoating, you should counter them directly and =
stop worrying about the tabloids and opinion poles. The media, especially T=
V, has much to blame for the rise of UKIP - they early on saw Farage as goo=
d viewing material and, being the media, that's all they were concerned wit=
h. They never miss an opportunity to have him on the screen.=20
</div>=20
<div>=20
<br clear=3D"none">=20
</div>=20
<div>
As for your own fair land - well, it's really pleasing when your democracy=
actually works for once, as with the recent Senate committee report on the=
CIA - such openness would never happen here. The torture revelations are n=
o surprise of course - we have known for years about this stuff. And as it =
has always done, everything points to the Brits being complicit - Blair, St=
raw, DAVID Miliband at the top and countless others down the line all look =
as guilty as hell but I very much doubt if anything ever comes of it. I dou=
bt too that Rifkind would be so eager to uncover secrets if it had been a C=
onservative government in power at the time. But there you go. It's never p=
ublicly said but we all know that David Miliband would probably be the curr=
ent leader of the Labour Party if he was not so closely associated with ren=
dition.=20
</div>=20
<div>=20
<br clear=3D"none">=20
</div>=20
<div>
Bloody politics. Let's get back to something full of warmth and peaceful t=
houghts like poetry. =20
</div>=20
<div>=20
<br clear=3D"none">=20
</div>=20
<div>
Cheers and Happy Christmas to all my readers.=20
</div>=20
<div>=20
<br clear=3D"none">=20
</div>=20
<div>
Tim=20
</div>=20
<div>
=20
<br clear=3D"none">=20
<div>=20
<div>
On 15 Dec 2014, at 21:37, Mark Weiss wrote:=20
</div>=20
<br clear=3D"none" class=3D"yiv1117164411aolmail_aolmail_Apple-inter=
change-newline">=20
<blockquote>=20
<span class=3D"yiv1117164411aolmail_aolmail_Apple-style-span" style=
=3D"border-collapse:separate;font-family:Helvetica;font-style:normal;font-v=
ariant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;o=
rphans:2;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;widows:2;wo=
rd-spacing:0px;font-size:medium;"><span class=3D"yiv1117164411aolmail_aolma=
il_Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family:Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-se=
rif;font-size:12px;">I spent the month before the referendum and the two we=
eks after in Glasgow. This is decidedly not what I heard or saw.<br clear=
=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none">=20
</span></span><blockquote style=3D"padding-left:5px;margin-left:0=
px;border-left-color:rgb(0, 0, 255);border-left-width:2px;border-left-style=
:solid;font-weight:normal;font-style:normal;text-decoration:none;font-size:=
10pt;font-family:arial, sans-serif;color:black;">
-----Original Message-----=20
<span class=3D"yiv1117164411aolmail_aolmail_Apple-converted-spac=
e"> </span>=20
<br clear=3D"none">From: Sean Carey=20
<span class=3D"yiv1117164411aolmail_aolmail_Apple-converted-spac=
e"> </span>=20
<br clear=3D"none">Sent: Dec 15, 2014 10:22 AM=20
<span class=3D"yiv1117164411aolmail_aolmail_Apple-converted-spac=
e"> </span>=20
<br clear=3D"none">To:=20
<span class=3D"yiv1117164411aolmail_aolmail_Apple-converted-spac=
e"> </span>=20
<a rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:BRITISH-IRI=
[log in to unmask]" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:BRITISH-IRISH-POE=
[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>=20
<span class=3D"yiv1117164411aolmail_aolmail_Apple-converted-spac=
e"> </span>=20
<br clear=3D"none">Subject: The wily Alex=20
<span class=3D"yiv1117164411aolmail_aolmail_Apple-converted-spac=
e"> </span>=20
<br clear=3D"none">=20
<br clear=3D"none">Salmond assumes a lot and in his timing on th=
e Yes or No vote miscalulated. The SNP is rooted in conservative thinking w=
ith their core support among well paid workers who would be happy to lose L=
abour or socialist thinking. It is their view that poverty is just a scam t=
hat they pay for with their taxes. They like the SNP because it rids them o=
f Labour and English liberalism in a split from London. UKIP and the Celtic=
Nationalists are not and never were socialists. Their roots are in Italian=
19th century nationalism. I see no trace of John MacLean in the SNP brand =
but a lot of Garibaldi.=20
<br clear=3D"none">=20
</blockquote>=20
</blockquote>=20
</div>=20
<br clear=3D"none">=20
</div>=20
</div>=20
</div>=20
</div>
</blockquote>=20
</div>
</div></div>
</div></div></div><br><br></div> </div> </div> </div></body></html>
------=_Part_1006848_20755482.1418938528138--
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2014 17:41:43 -0500
Reply-To: British & Irish poets <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: British & Irish poets <[log in to unmask]>
From: Mark Weiss <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Nationalism Will Always Exist
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Message-ID: <[log in to unmask]>
<head><style>body{font-family: Geneva,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:=
9pt;background-color: #ffffff;color: black;}</style></head><body id=3D"comp=
Text">There are a lot of other contenders, alas. US latin american policy i=
n general, and the middle east. Not always bipartisan, tho, despite what mi=
ght have looked that way on the surface--in the US the bargaining is always=
on the strange side. At least Cuban policy is improving. <br><br><bl=
ockquote style=3D"padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 0px; border-left: #0000ff=
2px solid; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none;=
font-size: 10pt; font-family: arial,sans-serif; color: black;"><delatane@y=
ahoo.com><zzzhtml><zzzbody><div style=3D"color:#000; background-color:#fff;=
font-family:verdana, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:16px"><br><div dir=3D=
"ltr" id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1418938032008_3273">Two of the worst bipartisan po=
licies in the US, both of long standing, were the stance towards Cuba and t=
he blind eye to the IRA.</div><div dir=3D"ltr" id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_141893803=
2008_3273"><br></div><div class=3D"signature" id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1418938032=
008_3511">David Latane<br> http://www.standmagazine.org (Stand Magazine, Le=
eds)</div><br> <div style=3D"font-family: verdana, helvetica, sans-serif; =
font-size: 16px;" id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1418938032008_3514"> <div style=3D"fon=
t-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, s=
ans-serif; font-size: 16px;" id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1418938032008_3513"> <div d=
ir=3D"ltr" id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1418938032008_3512"> <hr id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1=
418938032008_3778" size=3D"1"> <font id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1418938032008_3515=
" size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"> <b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold;">From:</sp=
an></b> Sean Carey <[log in to unmask]><br> <b><span style=3D"font=
-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> [log in to unmask] <br> <b><=
span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, December 17, =
2014 7:51 PM<br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> =
Re: Nationalism Will Always Exist<br> </font> </div> <div class=3D"y_msg_co=
ntainer" id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1418938032008_3516"><br><div id=3D"yiv111716441=
1"><div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1418938032008_3517">If the Scots had indeed vote=
d Yes the issues of the bases would have soon have created a real display o=
f American power. I doubt if the State Dept. would have let the Americans b=
udge. I doubt if Mr Salmond would have moved Mr Obama to say a farewell to =
Scotland? In fact in ways it would have been Obama's delight to gain reveng=
e for the letting go of the Pan Am suspect who has since passed away.<div i=
d=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1418938032008_3776"><br clear=3D"none"></div><div id=3D"y=
ui_3_16_0_1_1418938032008_3518">The American view that these isles are made=
up of Orange and Green battling it out are part of history. At home our st=
omach for bomb and bullet is thankfully more or less gone. More than enough=
died Mark and Americans did indeed help fund our guerrilla groups both Ora=
nge and Green. </div><div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1418938032008_3519"><br c=
lear=3D"none"></div><div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1418938032008_3544">Anglo Irish=
relations have improved but work remains to be done.</div><div id=3D"yui_3=
_16_0_1_1418938032008_3520"><br clear=3D"none">Sent from AOL Mobile Mail<br=
clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none">-----Original Message=
-----<br clear=3D"none">From: Mark Weiss <[log in to unmask]><br =
clear=3D"none">To: BRITISH-IRISH-POETS <[log in to unmask]
UK><br clear=3D"none">Sent: Wed, Dec 17, 2014 10:15 PM<br clear=3D"none"=
>Subject: Re: Nationalism Will Always Exist<br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"=
none"><br clear=3D"none">
<div class=3D"qtdSeparateBR"><br><br></div><div class=3D"yiv1117164411yqt63=
69131165" id=3D"yiv1117164411yqt86284"><div id=3D"yiv1117164411AOLMsgPart_1=
_c65ad3fe-d6e6-4e08-b1e7-670621714585">
<style>#yiv1117164411 #yiv1117164411AOLMsgPart_1_c65ad3fe-d6e6-4e08-b1e7-67=
0621714585 td{color:black;}#yiv1117164411 .yiv1117164411aolReplacedBody {fo=
nt-family:Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:9pt;background-col=
or:#ffffff;color:black;}</style>
<div class=3D"yiv1117164411aolReplacedBody" id=3D"yiv1117164411aolmail_comp=
Text">
This is a vast oversimplification of history, Sean. Like, that Mexico was h=
ardly our first imperialist adventure. And the special relationship h=
as varied in its impact--it was British money that funded the settlement of=
the west and built the railroads, and that dominated the US economy until =
1890, and it was the decision of the London banks not to back the confedera=
cy that won the war for the north. But I'll restrict my comments to the imm=
ediate situation in Scotland preceding the referendum. The area around the =
Clyde estuary west of Glasgow voted no, and tipped the scale. There were tw=
o factors in this that are at odds with your interpretation, neither of the=
m very pretty. One is that the area is a stronghold of the Orangemen. The o=
ther is that the major industry in the area is the trident base. I was in H=
elensburgh a couple of days before the referendum. The talk was all about t=
he economic impact if there were a yes vote and the base was closed. And th=
e area's Orange lodges made their opinion eminently clear with marches and =
political organizing. Economic insecurity motivated the vote in that area, =
and sectarian prejudice. I don't think US interests had much to do with it.
<br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
<blockquote style=3D"padding-left:5px;margin-left:0px;border-left:#0000ff =
2px solid;font-weight:normal;font-style:normal;text-decoration:none;font-si=
ze:10pt;font-family:arial, sans-serif;color:black;">
-----Original Message-----=20
<br clear=3D"none">From: Sean Carey=20
<br clear=3D"none">Sent: Dec 17, 2014 4:39 PM=20
<br clear=3D"none">To: <a rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mail=
to:[log in to unmask]" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:BRI=
[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>=20
<br clear=3D"none">Subject: Re: Nationalism Will Always Exist=20
<br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">But when nationalist hate and violence create death an=
d injuries and end up destroying jobs then we must simply say No. Within So=
cialist thought since the sixties or earlier Internationalism was sidelined=
. Many genuine radicals thought entering nationalist parties would change t=
hem via entryism. Sadly many died or suffered serious injuries as a result.=
The internal nationalist party structures do not tolerate debate while the=
ir paramilitary wings are rooted in a tiny cabal calling the shots.
<div>
<br clear=3D"none">
</div>
<div>
<br clear=3D"none">
</div>
<div>
In my own time running literary groups I kept an open door policy which uph=
eld the right to free speech for all. To exclude any political view I could=
never allow and if people found listening to poets or bands or singers who=
supported violence they had the option to leave. Many poets indeed are nat=
ionalists with indeed many famous writers fascists. That term in a 2014 con=
text sounds corny but a lot of people in the world detest democracy. They w=
ould prefer a strong man or woman in power with no elections. Modern fascis=
ts do not wear brown shirts or indeed W.B. Yeats' blue hue. There is no Mos=
ley holding mass meetings or street battles between left and right. Ireland=
has no Eoin O' Duffy but far smoother operators in designer kit.
</div>
<div>
<br clear=3D"none">
</div>
<div>
<br clear=3D"none">
</div>
<div>
The benefits of "The Special Relationship" with America only works in Ameri=
ca's interest. To keep Europe divided has always been an American ploy and =
the dollars that helped kill and maim in Birmingham indeed crossed the Atla=
ntic. America started its imperial adventures in Mexico where its role is s=
till dubious. Rather than pull clear of Europe Britain should pull closer t=
o the E.U. which contains nations who view America with deep mistrust. Unde=
r Obama America has tried to retreat but the real action East of Suez keeps=
getting in the way. I am sure the State Dept. look with favour on UKIP and=
their European role models in Golden Dawn and the French National Front. T=
hese groups help America's interest.
</div>
<div>
<br clear=3D"none">
</div>
<div>
<br clear=3D"none">
</div>
<div>
Poets can help by opposing the drift to fascist rule on these islands by po=
inting out that we live in times of huge danger. Poems in themselves can in=
spire young and old to join those who oppose 2014 right wing thinking. In t=
he past poems helped to expose false promises and lynch mob tactics.
</div>
<div>
<br clear=3D"none">
</div>
<div>
<br clear=3D"none">
</div>
<div>
<br clear=3D"none">Sent from AOL Mobile Mail
<br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">-----Original Message-----
<br clear=3D"none">From: Tim Allen <<a rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect=
" ymailto=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" target=
=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">0=
[log in to unmask]</a>>
<br clear=3D"none">To: BRITISH-IRISH-POETS <<a rel=3D"nofollow" shape=
=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" target=3D"_=
blank" href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">BRITISH-IRISH-POE=
[log in to unmask]</a>>
<br clear=3D"none">Sent: Tue, Dec 16, 2014 12:01 PM
<br clear=3D"none">Subject: Re: The wily Alex
<br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">=20
<div id=3D"yiv1117164411aolmail_AOLMsgPart_2_513692f5-ee9b-4a91-9f7f-2c9=
047c3b254">=20
<div class=3D"yiv1117164411aolmail_aolReplacedBody" style=3D"word-wrap:=
break-word;">
I agree with you Mark. I know the line that Sean takes on it, and David to=
o to an extent, is the view of a portion of what we might call the intellig=
encia (there Dave - your one of the inteligencia) but it is not a generally=
held view by people in general and certainly not the media. Nationalist pa=
rties are always a strange mix and I don't think they can be categorised al=
l together but need to be looked at in their own contexts. I don't fully tr=
ust Salmond but I don't fully trust anybody else either. In contradiction t=
o Sean I think there are genuine socialist strands within the SNP and cynic=
though I am I really don't think this is false front - Nicola Sturgeon see=
ms genuine to me. There are, I admit, non-socialist and even anti strands w=
ithin it but the bulk of Scotland is not behind them. I personally don't wa=
nt Scotland to go independent because I would much rather be a citizen of a=
country that included it, for a whole raft of reasons.=20
<div>=20
<br clear=3D"none">=20
</div>=20
<div>
The UKIP thing is something else. I loathe them, but at the same time they=
do reflect the views of many. They have given a stronger voice to a nasty =
strand of thinking that has always existed in this fair land and made it OK=
to express thinly veiled racist and thuggy rightist opinions under a dange=
rously populist banner. Most of all I don't like the way the other parties =
are pandering to this, particularly Labour. I know that this is a matter of=
political strategy etc but I still don't like it and don't think it will d=
o any good in the long run. I believe that when faced with vile opinions, e=
specially ones based on scapegoating, you should counter them directly and =
stop worrying about the tabloids and opinion poles. The media, especially T=
V, has much to blame for the rise of UKIP - they early on saw Farage as goo=
d viewing material and, being the media, that's all they were concerned wit=
h. They never miss an opportunity to have him on the screen.=20
</div>=20
<div>=20
<br clear=3D"none">=20
</div>=20
<div>
As for your own fair land - well, it's really pleasing when your democracy=
actually works for once, as with the recent Senate committee report on the=
CIA - such openness would never happen here. The torture revelations are n=
o surprise of course - we have known for years about this stuff. And as it =
has always done, everything points to the Brits being complicit - Blair, St=
raw, DAVID Miliband at the top and countless others down the line all look =
as guilty as hell but I very much doubt if anything ever comes of it. I dou=
bt too that Rifkind would be so eager to uncover secrets if it had been a C=
onservative government in power at the time. But there you go. It's never p=
ublicly said but we all know that David Miliband would probably be the curr=
ent leader of the Labour Party if he was not so closely associated with ren=
dition.=20
</div>=20
<div>=20
<br clear=3D"none">=20
</div>=20
<div>
Bloody politics. Let's get back to something full of warmth and peaceful t=
houghts like poetry. =20
</div>=20
<div>=20
<br clear=3D"none">=20
</div>=20
<div>
Cheers and Happy Christmas to all my readers.=20
</div>=20
<div>=20
<br clear=3D"none">=20
</div>=20
<div>
Tim=20
</div>=20
<div>
=20
<br clear=3D"none">=20
<div>=20
<div>
On 15 Dec 2014, at 21:37, Mark Weiss wrote:=20
</div>=20
<br class=3D"yiv1117164411aolmail_aolmail_Apple-interchange-newline"=
clear=3D"none">=20
<blockquote>=20
<span class=3D"yiv1117164411aolmail_aolmail_Apple-style-span" style=
=3D"border-collapse:separate;font-family:Helvetica;font-style:normal;font-v=
ariant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;o=
rphans:2;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;widows:2;wo=
rd-spacing:0px;font-size:medium;"><span class=3D"yiv1117164411aolmail_aolma=
il_Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family:Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-se=
rif;font-size:12px;">I spent the month before the referendum and the two we=
eks after in Glasgow. This is decidedly not what I heard or saw.<br clear=
=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none">=20
</span></span><blockquote style=3D"padding-left:5px;margin-left:0=
px;border-left-color:rgb(0, 0, 255);border-left-width:2px;border-left-style=
:solid;font-weight:normal;font-style:normal;text-decoration:none;font-size:=
10pt;font-family:arial, sans-serif;color:black;">
-----Original Message-----=20
<span class=3D"yiv1117164411aolmail_aolmail_Apple-converted-spac=
e"> </span>=20
<br clear=3D"none">From: Sean Carey=20
<span class=3D"yiv1117164411aolmail_aolmail_Apple-converted-spac=
e"> </span>=20
<br clear=3D"none">Sent: Dec 15, 2014 10:22 AM=20
<span class=3D"yiv1117164411aolmail_aolmail_Apple-converted-spac=
e"> </span>=20
<br clear=3D"none">To:=20
<span class=3D"yiv1117164411aolmail_aolmail_Apple-converted-spac=
e"> </span>=20
<a rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:BRITISH-IRI=
[log in to unmask]" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:BRITISH-IRISH-POE=
[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>=20
<span class=3D"yiv1117164411aolmail_aolmail_Apple-converted-spac=
e"> </span>=20
<br clear=3D"none">Subject: The wily Alex=20
<span class=3D"yiv1117164411aolmail_aolmail_Apple-converted-spac=
e"> </span>=20
<br clear=3D"none">=20
<br clear=3D"none">Salmond assumes a lot and in his timing on th=
e Yes or No vote miscalulated. The SNP is rooted in conservative thinking w=
ith their core support among well paid workers who would be happy to lose L=
abour or socialist thinking. It is their view that poverty is just a scam t=
hat they pay for with their taxes. They like the SNP because it rids them o=
f Labour and English liberalism in a split from London. UKIP and the Celtic=
Nationalists are not and never were socialists. Their roots are in Italian=
19th century nationalism. I see no trace of John MacLean in the SNP brand =
but a lot of Garibaldi.=20
<br clear=3D"none">=20
</blockquote>=20
</blockquote>=20
</div>=20
<br clear=3D"none">=20
</div>=20
</div>=20
</div>=20
</div>
</blockquote>=20
</div>
</div></div>
</div></div></div><br><br></div> </div> </div> </div></zzzbody></zzzhtml><=
[log in to unmask]></blockquote></body>
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2014 17:50:21 -0500
Reply-To: British & Irish poets <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: British & Irish poets <[log in to unmask]>
From: Mark Weiss <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Nationalism Will Always Exist
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Message-ID: <[log in to unmask]>
<head><style>body{font-family: Geneva,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:=
9pt;background-color: #ffffff;color: black;}</style></head><body id=3D"comp=
Text"><font size=3D"3">This from Ned Sublette should add some nuance to the=
discussion, especially as it concerns US "bipartisan policy."<br><br>"Amid=
the euphoria (and as heads spin in right-wing circles), it's
sad to recall that Bill Clinton, whose legacy looks worse and
worse with the passage of time, could have done this, and much
more, twenty years ago, and saved us all a lot of grief. Instead,
by allowing himself to be stampeded into signing the horrendously
imperialist=20
=20
<a href=3D"http://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/sanctions/Document=
s/libertad.pdf" rel=3D"nofollow">Helms-Burton</a> law,=20
he tied his own and future presidents' hands
(and laid the groundwork for the Alan Gross mess). Thanks to
him, regime change in Cuba is US policy in law, which
specifically mentions Fidel and Ra=C3=BAl Castro by name, and the
embargo has to be repealed by Congress. He also prosecuted the
Cuban Five. Nor did he remove the bogus designation of Cuba as a
state sponsor of terrorism, which designation Secretary of State
Kerry will now "review." <br> <br>
Having the first Latin American Pope as the<a href=3D"http://www.nyti=
mes.com/2014/12/18/world/americas/breakthrough-on-cuba-highlights-popes-rol=
e-as-diplomatic-broker.html" rel=3D"nofollow"> facilitator</a> was =
brilliant. So that,
for example, Marco Rubio (b. 1971, who, let us remember,
like many of his anti-Castro-industry colleagues, has never
been to Cuba and whose family left Cuba in 1956, though he
used to claim they fled Communism until Manuel Roig-Franza
<a href=3D"http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/marco-rubios-comp=
elling-family-story-embellishes-facts-documents-show/2011/10/20/gIQAaVHD1L_=
story.html" rel=3D"nofollow">dug up the facts</a>) is in the positi=
on
of having to <a href=3D"http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/rubio=
-struggles-condemnations-obamas-cuba-policy" rel=3D"nofollow">lecture =
the Pope on human rights</a> as
he does his "it's a totalitarian country" shtick.
<br> <br> A salute to former President Jimmy
Carter, who is practically an unmentionable these days, but
who tried to do this in the 1970s -- he scrapped the travel
ban entirely -- and who, significantly, <a href=3D"http://www.carterc=
enter.org/news/trip_reports/cuba-march2011.html" rel=3D"nofollow">visited =
Cuba</a> in 2011 and spoke, live
and uncensored, on Cuban TV. He did manage to establish
"interests sections" in lieu of embassies and
establish the precedent of family visits, but much of his
initiative was undercut by Reagan-Bush (to say nothing of <a href=3D"=
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mariel_boatlift" rel=3D"nofollow">Mariel</a>),=
just as Obama's work could be
undone under the third President Bush (what, you don't
<i>want </i>a third President Bush, or a second President
Clinton?) Meanwhile, President Obama could be the first
sitting President since Coolidge to visit Cuba. <br> =20
=20
=20
=20
=20
<br> It looks like
the travel ban will still be in effect -- US citizens still
won't be able to go for tourism -- but there will be a
different interpretation of it. <a href=3D"http://www.nytimes.com/int=
eractive/2014/12/17/world/americas/cuba-sanctions.html" rel=3D"nofollow">Ge=
neral license for travel</a> is greatly
expanded -- meaning, you won't have to hire a lawyer to get
a piece of paper from the Treasury Department to permit your
travel on a case-by-case basis; travel, while not
unrestricted, will become much easier. In particular,
educational trips will boom. (One of the allowable categories for
general license now is public performance.) <br> <br>
We're going to have embassies, at last.=20
Cuba and the US will attend hemispheric
conferences together.=20
Banking and financial transaction regulations have
been liberalized -- very important -- and the remittance
caps have been raised. Big question: with the travel ban
still in place, though greatly loosened, will we get direct,
regularly scheduled, less expensive, non-charter flights by
major airlines, like we have to other countries? I'm not
finding an answer. <br> <br> The embargo is still
in place, though the net result of all of this may be, as
Tom Hayden suggests below, to hollow it out. I don't see any
chance that the new far-right Congress will agree to lift it.
Matt Peppe writes at <a href=3D"http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/12/18=
/the-problem-with-obamas-cuba-speech/" rel=3D"nofollow">Counterpunch</a>: =
"Obama=E2=80=99s correct
decision to abandon the Cold War policy towards Cuba needs
to be accompanied by a recognition that the policy itself
has been immoral, criminal and wrong. Period. As long as the
economic blockade is not overturned by Congress, it continues
to be so." While I'm at it, just for the record, we should
also not only close the prisons at Guant=C3=A1namo, but close t=
he
US Navy base there and return control of that port to Cuba.
<br> <br> =20
Meanwhile, Cuba's Venezuelan lifeline sinks
along with the price of oil. Venezuela, which presently has the <a hr=
ef=3D"http://www.businessinsider.com/traders-scared-as-hell-of-venezuela-20=
14-11" rel=3D"nofollow">highest rate</a> of inflation in the
world, <a href=3D"http://www.businessinsider.com/cuba-didnt-have-a-ch=
oice-anymore-2014-12" rel=3D"nofollow">may default</a> in the next =
twelve
months. <br> =20
=20
=20
<br> In the words of Manol=C3=ADn, El M=C3=A9dico de la Sal=
sa:
eso no es na', <a href=3D"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DPyh0O9_=
lW-I" rel=3D"nofollow">prep=C3=A1rate pa' lo que viene</a>.
"<br><br><br>The quote at the end means "This aint nothin. Get set =
for what's coming."</font><br><br><blockquote style=3D"padding-left: 5px; m=
argin-left: 0px; border-left: #0000ff 2px solid; font-weight: normal; font-=
style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-size: 10pt; font-family: arial,s=
ans-serif; color: black;">-----Original Message-----
<br>From: David Latane <[log in to unmask]>
<br>Sent: Dec 18, 2014 4:35 PM
<br>To: [log in to unmask]
<br>Subject: Re: Nationalism Will Always Exist
<br><br><zzzhtml><zzzbody><div style=3D"color:#000; background-color:#fff; =
font-family:verdana, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:16px"><div dir=3D"ltr"=
id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1418938032008_3273"><span id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1418938032=
008_3274">American subs haven't been based in Holy Loch since 1992.</span><=
/div><div dir=3D"ltr" id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1418938032008_3273"><span id=3D"yu=
i_3_16_0_1_1418938032008_3274"><br></span></div><div dir=3D"ltr" id=3D"yui_=
3_16_0_1_1418938032008_3273">What's all this Orange Lodge stuff? Do you mea=
n that when I was in Glasgow last summer during the world cup those marcher=
s weren't Dutch fans?</div><div dir=3D"ltr" id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_141893803200=
8_3273"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr" id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1418938032008_3273">T=
wo of the worst bipartisan policies in the US, both of long standing, were =
the stance towards Cuba and the blind eye to the IRA.</div><div dir=3D"ltr"=
id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1418938032008_3273"><br></div><div class=3D"signature" =
id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1418938032008_3511">David Latane<br> http://www.standmag=
azine.org (Stand Magazine, Leeds)</div><br> <div style=3D"font-family: ver=
dana, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;" id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_141893803=
2008_3514"> <div style=3D"font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helve=
tica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;" id=3D"yui_3_16_0_=
1_1418938032008_3513"> <div dir=3D"ltr" id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1418938032008_35=
12"> <hr id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1418938032008_3778" size=3D"1"> <font id=3D"yu=
i_3_16_0_1_1418938032008_3515" size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"> <b><span style=3D=
"font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> Sean Carey <[log in to unmask]&g=
t;<br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> BRITISH-IRISH-P=
[log in to unmask] <br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span>=
</b> Wednesday, December 17, 2014 7:51 PM<br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight=
: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: Nationalism Will Always Exist<br> </font> =
</div> <div class=3D"y_msg_container" id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1418938032008_3516=
"><br><div id=3D"yiv1117164411"><div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1418938032008_3517"=
>If the Scots had indeed voted Yes the issues of the bases would have soon =
have created a real display of American power. I doubt if the State Dept. w=
ould have let the Americans budge. I doubt if Mr Salmond would have moved M=
r Obama to say a farewell to Scotland? In fact in ways it would have been O=
bama's delight to gain revenge for the letting go of the Pan Am suspect who=
has since passed away.<div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1418938032008_3776"><br clea=
r=3D"none"></div><div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1418938032008_3518">The American v=
iew that these isles are made up of Orange and Green battling it out are pa=
rt of history. At home our stomach for bomb and bullet is thankfully more o=
r less gone. More than enough died Mark and Americans did indeed help fund =
our guerrilla groups both Orange and Green. </div><div id=3D"yui_3_16_=
0_1_1418938032008_3519"><br clear=3D"none"></div><div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_14=
18938032008_3544">Anglo Irish relations have improved but work remains to b=
e done.</div><div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1418938032008_3520"><br clear=3D"none"=
>Sent from AOL Mobile Mail<br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none"><br clear=
=3D"none">-----Original Message-----<br clear=3D"none">From: Mark Weiss <=
;[log in to unmask]><br clear=3D"none">To: BRITISH-IRISH-POETS <B=
[log in to unmask]><br clear=3D"none">Sent: Wed, Dec 17, =
2014 10:15 PM<br clear=3D"none">Subject: Re: Nationalism Will Always Exist<=
br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none">
<div class=3D"qtdSeparateBR"><br><br></div><div class=3D"yiv1117164411yqt63=
69131165" id=3D"yiv1117164411yqt86284"><div id=3D"yiv1117164411AOLMsgPart_1=
_c65ad3fe-d6e6-4e08-b1e7-670621714585">
<style>#yiv1117164411 #yiv1117164411AOLMsgPart_1_c65ad3fe-d6e6-4e08-b1e7-67=
0621714585 td{color:black;}#yiv1117164411 .yiv1117164411aolReplacedBody {fo=
nt-family:Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:9pt;background-col=
or:#ffffff;color:black;}</style>
<div class=3D"yiv1117164411aolReplacedBody" id=3D"yiv1117164411aolmail_comp=
Text">
This is a vast oversimplification of history, Sean. Like, that Mexico was h=
ardly our first imperialist adventure. And the special relationship h=
as varied in its impact--it was British money that funded the settlement of=
the west and built the railroads, and that dominated the US economy until =
1890, and it was the decision of the London banks not to back the confedera=
cy that won the war for the north. But I'll restrict my comments to the imm=
ediate situation in Scotland preceding the referendum. The area around the =
Clyde estuary west of Glasgow voted no, and tipped the scale. There were tw=
o factors in this that are at odds with your interpretation, neither of the=
m very pretty. One is that the area is a stronghold of the Orangemen. The o=
ther is that the major industry in the area is the trident base. I was in H=
elensburgh a couple of days before the referendum. The talk was all about t=
he economic impact if there were a yes vote and the base was closed. And th=
e area's Orange lodges made their opinion eminently clear with marches and =
political organizing. Economic insecurity motivated the vote in that area, =
and sectarian prejudice. I don't think US interests had much to do with it.
<br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
<blockquote style=3D"padding-left:5px;margin-left:0px;border-left:#0000ff =
2px solid;font-weight:normal;font-style:normal;text-decoration:none;font-si=
ze:10pt;font-family:arial, sans-serif;color:black;">
-----Original Message-----=20
<br clear=3D"none">From: Sean Carey=20
<br clear=3D"none">Sent: Dec 17, 2014 4:39 PM=20
<br clear=3D"none">To: <a rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mail=
to:[log in to unmask]" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:BRI=
[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>=20
<br clear=3D"none">Subject: Re: Nationalism Will Always Exist=20
<br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">But when nationalist hate and violence create death an=
d injuries and end up destroying jobs then we must simply say No. Within So=
cialist thought since the sixties or earlier Internationalism was sidelined=
. Many genuine radicals thought entering nationalist parties would change t=
hem via entryism. Sadly many died or suffered serious injuries as a result.=
The internal nationalist party structures do not tolerate debate while the=
ir paramilitary wings are rooted in a tiny cabal calling the shots.
<div>
<br clear=3D"none">
</div>
<div>
<br clear=3D"none">
</div>
<div>
In my own time running literary groups I kept an open door policy which uph=
eld the right to free speech for all. To exclude any political view I could=
never allow and if people found listening to poets or bands or singers who=
supported violence they had the option to leave. Many poets indeed are nat=
ionalists with indeed many famous writers fascists. That term in a 2014 con=
text sounds corny but a lot of people in the world detest democracy. They w=
ould prefer a strong man or woman in power with no elections. Modern fascis=
ts do not wear brown shirts or indeed W.B. Yeats' blue hue. There is no Mos=
ley holding mass meetings or street battles between left and right. Ireland=
has no Eoin O' Duffy but far smoother operators in designer kit.
</div>
<div>
<br clear=3D"none">
</div>
<div>
<br clear=3D"none">
</div>
<div>
The benefits of "The Special Relationship" with America only works in Ameri=
ca's interest. To keep Europe divided has always been an American ploy and =
the dollars that helped kill and maim in Birmingham indeed crossed the Atla=
ntic. America started its imperial adventures in Mexico where its role is s=
till dubious. Rather than pull clear of Europe Britain should pull closer t=
o the E.U. which contains nations who view America with deep mistrust. Unde=
r Obama America has tried to retreat but the real action East of Suez keeps=
getting in the way. I am sure the State Dept. look with favour on UKIP and=
their European role models in Golden Dawn and the French National Front. T=
hese groups help America's interest.
</div>
<div>
<br clear=3D"none">
</div>
<div>
<br clear=3D"none">
</div>
<div>
Poets can help by opposing the drift to fascist rule on these islands by po=
inting out that we live in times of huge danger. Poems in themselves can in=
spire young and old to join those who oppose 2014 right wing thinking. In t=
he past poems helped to expose false promises and lynch mob tactics.
</div>
<div>
<br clear=3D"none">
</div>
<div>
<br clear=3D"none">
</div>
<div>
<br clear=3D"none">Sent from AOL Mobile Mail
<br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">-----Original Message-----
<br clear=3D"none">From: Tim Allen <<a rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect=
" ymailto=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" target=
=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">0=
[log in to unmask]</a>>
<br clear=3D"none">To: BRITISH-IRISH-POETS <<a rel=3D"nofollow" shape=
=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" target=3D"_=
blank" href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">BRITISH-IRISH-POE=
[log in to unmask]</a>>
<br clear=3D"none">Sent: Tue, Dec 16, 2014 12:01 PM
<br clear=3D"none">Subject: Re: The wily Alex
<br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">=20
<div id=3D"yiv1117164411aolmail_AOLMsgPart_2_513692f5-ee9b-4a91-9f7f-2c9=
047c3b254">=20
<div class=3D"yiv1117164411aolmail_aolReplacedBody" style=3D"word-wrap:=
break-word;">
I agree with you Mark. I know the line that Sean takes on it, and David to=
o to an extent, is the view of a portion of what we might call the intellig=
encia (there Dave - your one of the inteligencia) but it is not a generally=
held view by people in general and certainly not the media. Nationalist pa=
rties are always a strange mix and I don't think they can be categorised al=
l together but need to be looked at in their own contexts. I don't fully tr=
ust Salmond but I don't fully trust anybody else either. In contradiction t=
o Sean I think there are genuine socialist strands within the SNP and cynic=
though I am I really don't think this is false front - Nicola Sturgeon see=
ms genuine to me. There are, I admit, non-socialist and even anti strands w=
ithin it but the bulk of Scotland is not behind them. I personally don't wa=
nt Scotland to go independent because I would much rather be a citizen of a=
country that included it, for a whole raft of reasons.=20
<div>=20
<br clear=3D"none">=20
</div>=20
<div>
The UKIP thing is something else. I loathe them, but at the same time they=
do reflect the views of many. They have given a stronger voice to a nasty =
strand of thinking that has always existed in this fair land and made it OK=
to express thinly veiled racist and thuggy rightist opinions under a dange=
rously populist banner. Most of all I don't like the way the other parties =
are pandering to this, particularly Labour. I know that this is a matter of=
political strategy etc but I still don't like it and don't think it will d=
o any good in the long run. I believe that when faced with vile opinions, e=
specially ones based on scapegoating, you should counter them directly and =
stop worrying about the tabloids and opinion poles. The media, especially T=
V, has much to blame for the rise of UKIP - they early on saw Farage as goo=
d viewing material and, being the media, that's all they were concerned wit=
h. They never miss an opportunity to have him on the screen.=20
</div>=20
<div>=20
<br clear=3D"none">=20
</div>=20
<div>
As for your own fair land - well, it's really pleasing when your democracy=
actually works for once, as with the recent Senate committee report on the=
CIA - such openness would never happen here. The torture revelations are n=
o surprise of course - we have known for years about this stuff. And as it =
has always done, everything points to the Brits being complicit - Blair, St=
raw, DAVID Miliband at the top and countless others down the line all look =
as guilty as hell but I very much doubt if anything ever comes of it. I dou=
bt too that Rifkind would be so eager to uncover secrets if it had been a C=
onservative government in power at the time. But there you go. It's never p=
ublicly said but we all know that David Miliband would probably be the curr=
ent leader of the Labour Party if he was not so closely associated with ren=
dition.=20
</div>=20
<div>=20
<br clear=3D"none">=20
</div>=20
<div>
Bloody politics. Let's get back to something full of warmth and peaceful t=
houghts like poetry. =20
</div>=20
<div>=20
<br clear=3D"none">=20
</div>=20
<div>
Cheers and Happy Christmas to all my readers.=20
</div>=20
<div>=20
<br clear=3D"none">=20
</div>=20
<div>
Tim=20
</div>=20
<div>
=20
<br clear=3D"none">=20
<div>=20
<div>
On 15 Dec 2014, at 21:37, Mark Weiss wrote:=20
</div>=20
<br class=3D"yiv1117164411aolmail_aolmail_Apple-interchange-newline"=
clear=3D"none">=20
<blockquote>=20
<span class=3D"yiv1117164411aolmail_aolmail_Apple-style-span" style=
=3D"border-collapse:separate;font-family:Helvetica;font-style:normal;font-v=
ariant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;o=
rphans:2;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;widows:2;wo=
rd-spacing:0px;font-size:medium;"><span class=3D"yiv1117164411aolmail_aolma=
il_Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family:Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-se=
rif;font-size:12px;">I spent the month before the referendum and the two we=
eks after in Glasgow. This is decidedly not what I heard or saw.<br clear=
=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none">=20
</span></span><blockquote style=3D"padding-left:5px;margin-left:0=
px;border-left-color:rgb(0, 0, 255);border-left-width:2px;border-left-style=
:solid;font-weight:normal;font-style:normal;text-decoration:none;font-size:=
10pt;font-family:arial, sans-serif;color:black;">
-----Original Message-----=20
<span class=3D"yiv1117164411aolmail_aolmail_Apple-converted-spac=
e"> </span>=20
<br clear=3D"none">From: Sean Carey=20
<span class=3D"yiv1117164411aolmail_aolmail_Apple-converted-spac=
e"> </span>=20
<br clear=3D"none">Sent: Dec 15, 2014 10:22 AM=20
<span class=3D"yiv1117164411aolmail_aolmail_Apple-converted-spac=
e"> </span>=20
<br clear=3D"none">To:=20
<span class=3D"yiv1117164411aolmail_aolmail_Apple-converted-spac=
e"> </span>=20
<a rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:BRITISH-IRI=
[log in to unmask]" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:BRITISH-IRISH-POE=
[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>=20
<span class=3D"yiv1117164411aolmail_aolmail_Apple-converted-spac=
e"> </span>=20
<br clear=3D"none">Subject: The wily Alex=20
<span class=3D"yiv1117164411aolmail_aolmail_Apple-converted-spac=
e"> </span>=20
<br clear=3D"none">=20
<br clear=3D"none">Salmond assumes a lot and in his timing on th=
e Yes or No vote miscalulated. The SNP is rooted in conservative thinking w=
ith their core support among well paid workers who would be happy to lose L=
abour or socialist thinking. It is their view that poverty is just a scam t=
hat they pay for with their taxes. They like the SNP because it rids them o=
f Labour and English liberalism in a split from London. UKIP and the Celtic=
Nationalists are not and never were socialists. Their roots are in Italian=
19th century nationalism. I see no trace of John MacLean in the SNP brand =
but a lot of Garibaldi.=20
<br clear=3D"none">=20
</blockquote>=20
</blockquote>=20
</div>=20
<br clear=3D"none">=20
</div>=20
</div>=20
</div>=20
</div>
</blockquote>=20
</div>
</div></div>
</div></div></div><br><br></div> </div> </div> </div></zzzbody></zzzhtml><=
[log in to unmask]></blockquote></body>
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2014 23:48:13 +0000
Reply-To: British & Irish poets <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: British & Irish poets <[log in to unmask]>
From: Peter Riley <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Nationalism Will Always Exist
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v936)
Message-ID: <[log in to unmask]>
It's also possible to feel quite worried about "normalisation".
Everyone knows that if the gates are fully opened to USA tourism the
island will be completely swamped. Someone worked out that there would
be five tourists to every Cuban. Where, then, does the additional work-
force come from? Not Haiti. And how do you get the profit to stay in
the country or, like the Bermudas, go straight back to source?
Hopefully the Cuban administration is aware of this danger. Already
the rhetoric of normalisation includes several references to "private
enterprise", which betray a wish not to normalise the relationship but
to normalise Cuba into an American version of normality. The boundary
between "private enterprise" and "American-owned" is always likely to
get fuzzy.
pr.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2014 20:18:43 -0500
Reply-To: British & Irish poets <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: British & Irish poets <[log in to unmask]>
From: Mark Weiss <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Nationalism Will Always Exist
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Very real concerns. Tho it's doubtful that there will be 55 million US tourists at any given moment. As it is, Cuban tourist facilities can barely keep up with the current rate of tourism. How the new resources will be created and governed remains to be seen. Despite the dangers, Cubans of all stripes except for the old emigre community are overjoyed. One sure good thing is that the US will stop its backdoor pressure on lenders not to lend to Cuba. That in itself should create more locally-controlled enterprise, and agriculture, both of which are desperately needed.
-----Original Message-----
>From: Peter Riley <[log in to unmask]>
>Sent: Dec 18, 2014 6:48 PM
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: Re: Nationalism Will Always Exist
>
>It's also possible to feel quite worried about "normalisation".
>Everyone knows that if the gates are fully opened to USA tourism the
>island will be completely swamped. Someone worked out that there would
>be five tourists to every Cuban. Where, then, does the additional work-
>force come from? Not Haiti. And how do you get the profit to stay in
>the country or, like the Bermudas, go straight back to source?
>Hopefully the Cuban administration is aware of this danger. Already
>the rhetoric of normalisation includes several references to "private
>enterprise", which betray a wish not to normalise the relationship but
>to normalise Cuba into an American version of normality. The boundary
>between "private enterprise" and "American-owned" is always likely to
>get fuzzy.
>
>pr.
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Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2014 20:24:29 -0500
Reply-To: British & Irish poets <[log in to unmask]>
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From: Mark Weiss <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: a new translation
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http://plumepoetry.com/2014/12/ayotzinapa/
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2014 23:30:36 -0500
Reply-To: British & Irish poets <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: British & Irish poets <[log in to unmask]>
From: Robert Kelly <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Fwd: new books at Metambesen
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-------- Original Message --------
Subject: new books at Metambesen
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2014 17:42:35 -0500
From: Charlotte Mandell <[log in to unmask]>
To: Charlotte Mandell <[log in to unmask]>
Dear friends,
Four new books are now available at Metambesen
<http://www.metambesen.org/books/>:
NON-JURING EPISCOPALIAN SONNETS
<http://www.metambesen.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/Luddite-Sonnets1.pdf>
by Peter Lamborn Wilson;
CLAWS <http://www.metambesen.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/Claws.pdf>
by Barbara Leon;
THE LEMON
<http://www.metambesen.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/The-Lemon.pdf> by
Ben Tripp; and
A BREAK IN THE WEATHER
<http://www.metambesen.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/A-BREAK-IN-THE-WEATHER.pdf>
by Robert Kelly.
We'll take a little winter break at Metambesen and will be back with
more books in the spring.
Also of interest: The new issue of Drunken Boat
<http://issues.drunkenboat.com/db20> includes work by me and fellow
Metambesen authors Celia Bland and Ian Dreiblatt.
I have an excerpt from Rimbaud's Le Bateau ivre here
<http://issues.drunkenboat.com/db20/translation/charlotte-mandell-translating-arthur-rimbaud>;
An excerpt from Celia Bland's Madonna Comix is here
<http://issues.drunkenboat.com/db20/poetry-comix-animation/celia-bland>; and
Ian Dreiblatt on Robert Kelly's new book of essays is here
<http://www.drunkenboat.com/?p=4332>.
Finally, we've been posting excerpts from Robert Kelly's new long poem,
Heart Thread, on his blog, here <http://rk-ology.blogspot.com/>.
Happy 2015!
Charlotte
--
Home page:
http://www.charlottemandell.com/
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-------- Original Message --------
<table class=3D"moz-email-headers-table" cellpadding=3D"0"
cellspacing=3D"0" border=3D"0">
<tbody>
<tr>
<th align=3D"RIGHT" nowrap=3D"nowrap" valign=3D"BASELINE">Sub=
ject:
</th>
<td>new books at Metambesen</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<th align=3D"RIGHT" nowrap=3D"nowrap" valign=3D"BASELINE">Dat=
e: </th>
<td>Fri, 19 Dec 2014 17:42:35 -0500</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<th align=3D"RIGHT" nowrap=3D"nowrap" valign=3D"BASELINE">Fro=
m: </th>
<td>Charlotte Mandell <a class=3D"moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href=
=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]"><[log in to unmask]&g=
t;</a></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<th align=3D"RIGHT" nowrap=3D"nowrap" valign=3D"BASELINE">To:=
</th>
<td>Charlotte Mandell <a class=3D"moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href=
=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]"><[log in to unmask]&g=
t;</a></td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<br>
<br>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div class=3D"gmail_default"
style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small=
">Dear
friends,</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default"
style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small=
"><br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default"
style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small=
">Four
new books are now available at <a moz-do-not-send=3D"true"
href=3D"http://www.metambesen.org/books/">Metambesen</a>:</di=
v>
<div class=3D"gmail_default"
style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small=
"><br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default"
style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small=
"><a
moz-do-not-send=3D"true"
href=3D"http://www.metambesen.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/Luddite-Sonn=
ets1.pdf">NON-JURING
EPISCOPALIAN SONNETS</a> by Peter Lamborn Wilson;</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default"
style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small=
"><br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default"
style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small=
"><a
moz-do-not-send=3D"true"
href=3D"http://www.metambesen.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/=
Claws.pdf">CLAWS</a>
by Barbara Leon;</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default"
style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small=
"><br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default"
style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small=
"><a
moz-do-not-send=3D"true"
href=3D"http://www.metambesen.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/The-Lemon.pd=
f">THE
LEMON</a> by Ben Tripp; and</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default"
style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small=
"><br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default"
style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small=
"><a
moz-do-not-send=3D"true"
href=3D"http://www.metambesen.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/A-BREAK-IN-T=
HE-WEATHER.pdf">A
BREAK IN THE WEATHER</a> by Robert Kelly.</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default"
style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small=
"><br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default"
style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small=
">We'll
take a little winter break at Metambesen and will be back with
more books in the spring. =C2=A0</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default"
style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small=
"><br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default"
style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small=
">Also
of interest: =C2=A0The new issue of <a moz-do-not-send=3D"true"
href=3D"http://issues.drunkenboat.com/db20">Drunken Boat</a>
includes work by me and fellow Metambesen authors Celia Bland
and Ian Dreiblatt.</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default"
style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small=
"><br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default"
style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small=
">I
have an excerpt from Rimbaud's Le Bateau ivre <a
moz-do-not-send=3D"true"
href=3D"http://issues.drunkenboat.com/db20/translation/charlotte-mandell-=
translating-arthur-rimbaud">here</a>;</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default"
style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small=
"><br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default"
style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small=
">An
excerpt from Celia Bland's Madonna Comix is <a
moz-do-not-send=3D"true"
href=3D"http://issues.drunkenboat.com/db20/poetry-comix-animation/celia-b=
land">here</a>;
and</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default"
style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small=
"><br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default"
style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small=
">Ian
Dreiblatt on Robert Kelly's new book of essays is <a
moz-do-not-send=3D"true"
href=3D"http://www.drunkenboat.com/?p=3D4332">here</a>.</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default"
style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small=
"><br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default"
style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small=
">Finally,
we've been posting excerpts from Robert Kelly's new long poem,
Heart Thread, on his blog, <a moz-do-not-send=3D"true"
href=3D"http://rk-ology.blogspot.com/">here</a>.</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default"
style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small=
"><br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default"
style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small=
">Happy
2015!</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default"
style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small=
"><br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default"
style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small=
">Charlotte=C2=A0</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default"
style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small=
"><br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default"
style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small=
"><br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default"
style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small=
"><br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default"
style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small=
"><br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default"
style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small=
"><br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default"
style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small=
"><br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default"
style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small=
"><br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default"
style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small=
"><br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default"
style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small=
"><br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default"
style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small=
"><br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default"
style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small=
"><br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default"
style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small=
"><br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default"
style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small=
"><br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default"
style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small=
"><br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default"
style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small=
"><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
-- <br>
<div class=3D"gmail_signature">Home page:=C2=A0 <br>
<a moz-do-not-send=3D"true"
href=3D"http://www.charlottemandell.com/">http://www.charlott=
emandell.com/</a></div>
</div>
<br>
</div>
<br>
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Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2014 19:31:39 +0000
Reply-To: British & Irish poets <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: British & Irish poets <[log in to unmask]>
From: jeff harrison <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Actaeon throughout
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Hounds, and also curs? Actaeon, and also a hart? Actaeon, a prince, a youth, a hunter -- Actaeon, and Actaeon throughout. From whelps to -- what would you have us now, curs? -- from whelps to curs, we are hounds throughout, and that hart, would you have him Actaeon now, Actaeon, and Actaeon throughout?
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<html><body><div style="color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size:16px">Hounds, and also curs? Actaeon, and also a hart? Actaeon, a prince, a youth, a hunter -- Actaeon, and Actaeon throughout. From whelps to -- what would you have us now, curs? -- from whelps to curs, we are hounds throughout, and that hart, would you have him Actaeon now, Actaeon, and Actaeon throughout?</div></body></html>
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Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2014 04:19:34 -0500
Reply-To: British & Irish poets <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: British & Irish poets <[log in to unmask]>
From: Sean Carey <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Wishing Everyone On
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The list a Happy Christmas and a Happy New Year. Thinking of those who left us year as well as those who are ill.
Love from
Sean C
Sent from AOL Mobile Mail
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<br>The list a Happy Christmas and a Happy New Year. Thinking of those who left us year as well as those who are ill. <div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Love from </div><div><br></div><div>Sean C <br>Sent from AOL Mobile Mail</div>
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Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2014 12:08:35 -0500
Reply-To: British & Irish poets <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: British & Irish poets <[log in to unmask]>
From: UTP Journals <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: (An)aesthetic of Absence / Une esth=?windows-1256?Q?=E9tique_?=de
l'absence- now available on Project MUSE
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Now available online=85
=20
(An)aesthetic of Absence / Une esth=E9tique de l'absence
University of Toronto Quarterly - Volume 83, Number 4, Fall 2014=20
http://bit.ly/utq833pm
This issue contains:=20
=20
Seeing in Plain Sight =96 Installations in Flight
Clark Lunberry =20
Observing from on high what from below remains unseeable is discussed =
and
described in this article, examining specific instances in the writings =
of
the philosopher Ludwig Wittgenstein, the novelist Marcel Proust, the
earthwork artist Robert Smithson, and the author=92s own 2012 art =
installation
undertaken at the University of Toronto. In each case, an airplane =
offers a
staging ground for the imagining of a more expansive kind of sight: one
that, in the final account, may leave the one seeing caught and divided =
in
the lofty dream of panoramic perception. With such imagined flight, one
leaves the world while never having left it, living in its place a =
Hamletic
dream of elevation and escape that keeps one securely =93bounded in a
nutshell=85a king of infinite space.=94 DOI: 10.3138/utq.83.3.606
=20
The Actor Who Wasn=92t There: Economies of Absence in Virtual Ecologies
Judith Roof =20
Cinema machines have striven in increasingly elaborate ways to eliminate =
any
sense of the foundational absence of the cinematographic apparatus that
underwrites the wonder of its spectacle. Recent digital media =
technologies
play out the hoaxic economy of virtual lures offered by layered sound =
and
imaging apparatuses. The last fifteen years of filmic present absence or
absent presence result from a series of attempts to produce =
cinematically
the illusion of spatiotemporal presence when, by definition, nothing in =
the
cinema is actually =93there=94 except resurrected light and sound wave =
patterns.
Deploying the spatial geometries of 3D mapping combined with mechanisms =
of
human sensory perception, these digital machines displace physiological
mechanisms of perception into the modes by which images and sound are
captured and transmitted. DOI: 10.3138/utq.83.3.625
=20
=AB neither =BB. Spectres sonores de Samuel Beckett
Cosmin Popovici-Toma =20
Explicitly problematizing the relationship between music and literature,
Samuel Beckett=92s Words and Music and Cascando are exemplary instances =
of
intermediality, but only if we grasp this concept as a conceptual tool =
that
helps us better understand the spectrality and neutrality that lie at =
the
core of Beckett=92s poetics. The encounter between music and literature =
in
these two radio plays is therefore a means of rendering paradoxically
audible a ghostly absence, an aesthetic =93hauntology=94 (Derrida) that =
lies
neither here nor there. This unceasing hesitation nonetheless calls for =
a
decision beyond the neuter (Blanchot): language or music; this or that? =
Such
is the impossible task at play in Cascando and Words and Music, as well =
as
in the rest of Beckett=92s =9Cuvre: letting the neuter be while still =
shaping
(musical) movement. DOI: 10.3138/utq.83.3.645=20
=20
The Waves as Exploration of (An)aesthetic of Absence1
J. Hillis Miller =20
Virginia Woolf=92s The Waves demonstrates how an (an)aesthetic of =
absence
might be dramatized in a work of fiction. It presupposes a vast =
impersonal
memory bank that stores everything that has ever happened, every thought =
or
feeling of every person. This data bank, however, is absent, =
inaccessible to
direct experience. The thoughts and feelings it stores, moreover, are =
always
already turned into appropriate language, complete with figures of =
speech
for sensations and feelings that cannot be said literally. These vivid
memories are involuntary, to borrow a word from Henri Bergson=92s memory
theory. They have been forgotten completely and suddenly =93come to the =
top=94
and begin re-enacting themselves as present occurrences in vivid detail
before the mind=92s eye. All the characters in The Waves, to different =
degrees
and in different ways, are haunted with the sense of a secret absent =
centre
to which they are attached and that they glimpse but cannot reach. DOI:
10.3138/utq.83.3.659
=20
Taken-Away to Mann=92s Magic Mountain
Darcy Gauthier =20
This article attends to things =93taken-away=94 in Thomas Mann=92s The =
Magic
Mountain (Der Zauberberg, 1924). I take my cue from Mann=92s description =
the
novel=92s own =93diseased element=94: its narrative time, out of which =
=93something
has been taken-away, like the spring from a corrupted clock=94 (etwas
hinweggenommen gewesen wie die Feder einer verdorbenen Uhr), and I
extrapolate this to consider its relation to many other things =
taken-away in
and from the novel. I ask the question, what is lost and, more =
importantly,
produced in being taken-away? In order to develop this question, I rely =
on
insights from psychoanalysis (especially Lacanian) into the relationship
between lack and desire. I end with an attempt to historicize this by
questioning the politics of taken-awayness, especially in relation to =
the
First World War. DOI: 10.3138/utq.83.3.678
=20
The Dodo in the Long Eighteenth Century: An Exploration of the Gray =
Ghost
Outside of the English Sentimental Eye
Charles Hoge =20
This article examines the specific type of monster that developed in
eighteenth-century British culture arising from early attempts to
reconstruct the extinct dodo. Specifically, discussions about the absent
dodo took shape in early ornithological texts, where it was universally
depicted as a monster, a lumbering, clumsy, gluttonous animal whose =
survival
was unquestionably doomed by its ungainly morphology. This iteration of =
the
dodo was constructed in the absence of productive empirical information
about the =93real=94 bird, largely from cultural prejudices and =
conjecture
extracted from studying old, inaccurate paintings. This reconstructed
monster-dodo shares little with the =93real=94 dodo, about which we know =
only
from fragmentary seventeenth-century accounts by witnesses who actually =
saw
the living bird and recent studies drawn from its fossil record. This
article explores why English culture took the relative =93blank slate=94 =
left by
this extinct bird and, contrary to emerging notions of sentimentality,
re-fashioned the dodo as a monster. DOI: 10.3138/utq.83.3.687
=20
Listening for Lost Creeks: Recollecting Absence via Alberto Caeiro and =
Eirin
Moure
Isabel A. Moore =20
This article traces the buried creeks of Toronto through Eirin Moure=92s
Sheep=92s Vigil by a Fervent Person, which translates and transports =
Alberto
Caeiro=92s O Guardador de Rebanhos from rural Portugal to urban =
pastoral.
Undermining more recent attempts to resurrect or disinter the creeks =
lost
beneath the city grid, Moure=92s and Pessoa/Caeiro=92s anti-anaesthetic =
poetics
and plural persons promise neither the pathetic personification of urban
water, nor a problematic return to aural or lyric presence. Taken =
together,
their polyglot Sheep instead perform an adverse pastoralism, one that
recollects the potentially anaesthetic effects of aestheticizing creeks
(among other things) and unburies our poetic fallacies about Nature by
rendering them present as fetishes. DOI: 10.3138/utq.83.3.705
=20
La double absence dans Talismano d=92Abdelwahab Meddeb
Ourdia Djedid =20
L=92article examine le fonctionnement de la trace dans Talismano. Le =
roman
exhibe une =E9criture qui se d=E9roule sur fond de double r=E9f=E9rence
intertextuelle; =E0 la fois orientale et occidentale. Inscrivant sa =
filiation
dans les fragments d=92un ici-ailleurs que le texte reconstruit, =
l=92auteur
revisite les lieux de l=92enfance et ceux de l=92exil. Les bribes du =
pass=E9 se
greffent au pr=E9sent et donnent lieu =E0 diff=E9rents parcours =
interpr=E9tatifs.
Telle est la lecture que le texte sugg=E8re dans un mouvement constant =
entre
l=92imp=E9ratif du temps v=E9cu et l=92imagination cr=E9atrice de son =
auteur.
L=92absence, dont la trace est le signe, devient salutaire m=EAme dans
l=92ali=E9nation qu=92elle engendre. Elle fonctionne comme une promesse =
de
recouvrement du soi au sein du texte m=EAme. Cette aspiration =E0 =
l=92absence du
personnage Meddebien s=92apparente =E0 un exil volontaire, =E0 une =
recherche d=92un
autre soi. DOI: 10.3138/utq.83.3.723
=20
Derrida at Villette: (An)aesthetic of Space
Brendon Wocke =20
In the early 1980s, Jacques Derrida, together with Peter Eisenman,
participated in the Paris Parc de La Villette project under the =
direction of
head architect Bernard Tschumi. Tasked with the production of a =
=93garden,=94
Derrida and Eisenman took their inspiration from the platonic concept of =
the
kh=F4ra. Ultimately six times over budget, the Derrida/Eisenman garden =
was not
included in the Parc de la Villette; the only record of the experiment =
being
Chora L Works, a collection of transcripts and essays documenting the
various meetings and exchanges between Eisenman, Tschumi, and Derrida. =
These
exchanges, read together with Derrida=92s broader consideration of the =
kh=F4ra
(in particular) and of the trace (more generally), can be seen to form a
dialogue on the aesthetics of space. But this is not mere architectural
discussion or theory; Derrida=92s implicit and explicit discussions of =
space
imply a particular textual and typographic practice that implicates =
works
such as Glas, The Post Card, and The Truth in Painting not to mention =
Chora
L Works itself. Through the columns of Glas, framed by the borders of =
The
Truth in Painting, the structural and literal holes of Chora L Works =
invite
the consideration of the Derridean architextual practice =96 from the
aesthetics of the textual space to the anesthetics of spatial text. DOI:
10.3138/utq.83.3.739
=20
Submissions to UTQ
University of Toronto Quarterly welcomes contributions in all areas of =
the
humanities =96 literature, philosophy, fine arts, music, the history of =
ideas,
cultural studies, and so on. It favours articles that appeal to a =
scholarly
readership beyond the specialists in the field of the given submission. =
For
full details, please visit <http://www.utpjournals.com/utq>
www.utpjournals.com/utq
=20
University of Toronto Quarterly
Acclaimed as one of the finest journals focused on the humanities,
University of Toronto Quarterly is filled with serious, probing, and
vigorously researched articles spanning a wide range of subjects in the
humanities. Often the best insights in one field of knowledge come =
through
cross-fertilization, where authors can apply another discipline=92s =
ideas,
concepts, and paradigms to their own disciplines. UTQ is not a journal =
where
one philosopher speaks to another, but a place where a philosopher can =
speak
to specialists and general readers in many other fields. This
interdisciplinary approach provides a depth and quality to the journal =
that
attracts both general readers and specialists from across the =
humanities.
=20
=20
<http://r20.rs6.net/tn.jsp?e=3D0014fNZV97uWt3XWyk2ytzvOsuYq8021N4H7rG0xzn=
CNBjj
VwInTrLbbg_k0-EM5ABjNzr8_r485uN1UoYHcOsY3Itogm1cfRz54m6fuj5PrS4LcgnQpuZAD=
ILe
fLJhbzR7> University of Toronto Quarterly Online - COMPLETE ARCHIVE NOW
AVAILABLE!
=20
The University of Toronto Quarterly complete archive of over 3200 =
articles
and reviews, from 1930 to present, is now available online. UTQ Online =
is an
extraordinary electronic resource of the humanities. It's all here -
literature, philosophy, fine arts, music, the history of ideas, cultural
studies, and much more! <http://bit.ly/utqonline> =
http://bit.ly/utqonline
=20
Partial archive - 1977-2014 (39 volumes, 150+ issues and more than 1200
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<http://bit.ly/UTQpm> http://bit.ly/UTQpm.
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posted by T Hawkins, University of Toronto Press =96 Journals
------=_NextPart_000_0331_01D01EA9.2E1181F0
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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-CA link=3Dblue =
vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><i>Now =
available online=85<o:p></o:p></i></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:14.0pt'>(An)aesthetic of Absence / Une esth=E9tique =
de l'absence<o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><b><i>University of Toronto Quarterly</i></b> - Volume =
83, Number 4, Fall 2014 <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><a =
href=3D"http://bit.ly/utq833pm">http://bit.ly/utq833pm</a><o:p></o:p></p>=
<p class=3DMsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>This issue =
contains: <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>=A0<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><b>Seeing in Plain Sight =96 Installations in =
Flight<o:p></o:p></b></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Clark Lunberry=A0=A0 =
<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>Observing from on high what from below =
remains unseeable is discussed and described in this article, examining =
specific instances in the writings of the philosopher Ludwig =
Wittgenstein, the novelist Marcel Proust, the earthwork artist Robert =
Smithson, and the author=92s own 2012 art installation undertaken at the =
University of Toronto. In each case, an airplane offers a staging ground =
for the imagining of a more expansive kind of sight: one that, in the =
final account, may leave the one seeing caught and divided in the lofty =
dream of panoramic perception. With such imagined flight, one leaves the =
world while never having left it, living in its place a Hamletic dream =
of elevation and escape that keeps one securely =93bounded in a =
nutshell=85a king of infinite space.=94=A0 DOI: =
10.3138/utq.83.3.606<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><b>The Actor =
Who Wasn=92t There: Economies of Absence in Virtual =
Ecologies<o:p></o:p></b></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Judith =
Roof=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>Cinema machines have striven in increasingly =
elaborate ways to eliminate any sense of the foundational absence of the =
cinematographic apparatus that underwrites the wonder of its spectacle. =
Recent digital media technologies play out the hoaxic economy of virtual =
lures offered by layered sound and imaging apparatuses. The last fifteen =
years of filmic present absence or absent presence result from a series =
of attempts to produce cinematically the illusion of spatiotemporal =
presence when, by definition, nothing in the cinema is actually =
=93there=94 except resurrected light and sound wave patterns. Deploying =
the spatial geometries of 3D mapping combined with mechanisms of human =
sensory perception, these digital machines displace physiological =
mechanisms of perception into the modes by which images and sound are =
captured and transmitted. DOI: =
10.3138/utq.83.3.625<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><b>=AB =
neither =BB. Spectres sonores de Samuel Beckett<o:p></o:p></b></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Cosmin Popovici-Toma=A0 <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>Explicitly =
problematizing the relationship between music and literature, Samuel =
Beckett=92s <i>Words and Music</i> and <i>Cascando</i> are exemplary =
instances of intermediality, but only if we grasp this concept as a =
conceptual tool that helps us better understand the spectrality and =
neutrality that lie at the core of Beckett=92s poetics. The encounter =
between music and literature in these two radio plays is therefore a =
means of rendering paradoxically audible a ghostly absence, an aesthetic =
=93hauntology=94 (Derrida) that lies neither here nor there. This =
unceasing hesitation nonetheless calls for a decision beyond the neuter =
(Blanchot): language or music; this or that? Such is the impossible task =
at play in <i>Cascando</i> and <i>Words and Music</i>, as well as in the =
rest of Beckett=92s <i>=9Cuvre</i>: letting the neuter be while still =
shaping (musical) movement. DOI: 10.3138/utq.83.3.645</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 =
<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><b>The Waves as Exploration of =
(An)aesthetic of Absence1<o:p></o:p></b></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>J. =
Hillis Miller=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>Virginia Woolf=92s <i>The Waves</i> =
demonstrates how an (an)aesthetic of absence might be dramatized in a =
work of fiction. It presupposes a vast impersonal memory bank that =
stores everything that has ever happened, every thought or feeling of =
every person. This data bank, however, is absent, inaccessible to direct =
experience. The thoughts and feelings it stores, moreover, are always =
already turned into appropriate language, complete with figures of =
speech for sensations and feelings that cannot be said literally. These =
vivid memories are involuntary, to borrow a word from Henri Bergson=92s =
memory theory. They have been forgotten completely and suddenly =93come =
to the top=94 and begin re-enacting themselves as present occurrences in =
vivid detail before the mind=92s eye. All the characters in <i>The =
Waves</i>, to different degrees and in different ways, are haunted with =
the sense of a secret absent centre to which they are attached and that =
they glimpse but cannot reach. DOI: =
10.3138/utq.83.3.659<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><b>Taken-Away to Mann=92s Magic =
Mountain<o:p></o:p></b></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Darcy Gauthier=A0 =
<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>This article attends to things =
=93taken-away=94 in Thomas Mann=92s <i>The Magic Mountain</i> (<i>Der =
Zauberberg</i>, 1924). I take my cue from Mann=92s description the =
novel=92s own =93diseased element=94: its narrative time, out of which =
=93something has been taken-away, like the spring from a corrupted =
clock=94 (<i>etwas hinweggenommen gewesen wie die Feder einer =
verdorbenen Uhr</i>), and I extrapolate this to consider its relation to =
many other things taken-away in and from the novel. I ask the question, =
what is lost and, more importantly, <i>produced</i> in being taken-away? =
In order to develop this question, I rely on insights from =
psychoanalysis (especially Lacanian) into the relationship between lack =
and desire. I end with an attempt to historicize this by questioning the =
politics of taken-awayness, especially in relation to the First World =
War. DOI: 10.3138/utq.83.3.678<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><b>The Dodo =
in the Long Eighteenth Century: An Exploration of the Gray Ghost Outside =
of the English Sentimental Eye<o:p></o:p></b></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Charles Hoge=A0=A0=A0=A0 <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>This article examines =
the specific type of monster that developed in eighteenth-century =
British culture arising from early attempts to reconstruct the extinct =
dodo. Specifically, discussions about the absent dodo took shape in =
early ornithological texts, where it was universally depicted as a =
monster, a lumbering, clumsy, gluttonous animal whose survival was =
unquestionably doomed by its ungainly morphology. This iteration of the =
dodo was constructed in the absence of productive empirical information =
about the =93real=94 bird, largely from cultural prejudices and =
conjecture extracted from studying old, inaccurate paintings. This =
reconstructed monster-dodo shares little with the =93real=94 dodo, about =
which we know only from fragmentary seventeenth-century accounts by =
witnesses who actually saw the living bird and recent studies drawn from =
its fossil record. This article explores why English culture took the =
relative =93blank slate=94 left by this extinct bird and, contrary to =
emerging notions of sentimentality, re-fashioned the dodo as a monster. =
DOI: 10.3138/utq.83.3.687<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><b>Listening =
for Lost Creeks: Recollecting Absence via Alberto Caeiro and Eirin =
Moure<o:p></o:p></b></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Isabel A. =
Moore=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>This article traces =
the buried creeks of Toronto through Eirin Moure=92s <i>Sheep=92s Vigil =
by a Fervent Person</i>, which translates and transports Alberto =
Caeiro=92s <i>O Guardador de Rebanhos</i> from rural Portugal to urban =
pastoral. Undermining more recent attempts to resurrect or disinter the =
creeks lost beneath the city grid, Moure=92s and Pessoa/Caeiro=92s =
anti-anaesthetic poetics and plural persons promise neither the pathetic =
personification of urban water, nor a problematic return to aural or =
lyric presence. Taken together, their polyglot <i>Sheep</i> instead =
perform an adverse pastoralism, one that recollects the potentially =
anaesthetic effects of aestheticizing creeks (among other things) and =
unburies our poetic fallacies about Nature by rendering them present as =
fetishes. DOI: 10.3138/utq.83.3.705<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><b>La double =
absence dans Talismano d=92Abdelwahab Meddeb<o:p></o:p></b></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Ourdia Djedid=A0=A0=A0 <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>L=92article examine =
le fonctionnement de la trace dans <i>Talismano</i>. Le roman exhibe une =
=E9criture qui se d=E9roule sur fond de double r=E9f=E9rence =
intertextuelle; =E0 la fois orientale et occidentale. Inscrivant sa =
filiation dans les fragments d=92un <i>ici-ailleurs</i> que le texte =
reconstruit, l=92auteur revisite les lieux de l=92enfance et ceux de =
l=92exil. Les bribes du pass=E9 se greffent au pr=E9sent et donnent lieu =
=E0 diff=E9rents parcours interpr=E9tatifs. Telle est la lecture que le =
texte sugg=E8re dans un mouvement constant entre l=92imp=E9ratif du =
temps v=E9cu et l=92imagination cr=E9atrice de son auteur. L=92absence, =
dont la trace est le signe, devient salutaire m=EAme dans =
l=92ali=E9nation qu=92elle engendre. Elle fonctionne comme une promesse =
de recouvrement du soi au sein du texte m=EAme. Cette aspiration =E0 =
l=92absence du personnage Meddebien s=92apparente =E0 un exil =
volontaire, =E0 une recherche d=92un autre soi. DOI: =
10.3138/utq.83.3.723<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><b>Derrida =
at Villette: (An)aesthetic of Space<o:p></o:p></b></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Brendon =
Wocke=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>In the early 1980s, =
Jacques Derrida, together with Peter Eisenman, participated in the Paris =
<i>Parc de La Villette</i> project under the direction of head architect =
Bernard Tschumi. Tasked with the production of a =93garden,=94 Derrida =
and Eisenman took their inspiration from the platonic concept of the =
<i>kh=F4ra</i>. Ultimately six times over budget, the Derrida/Eisenman =
garden was not included in the <i>Parc de la Villette</i>; the only =
record of the experiment being <i>Chora L Works</i>, a collection of =
transcripts and essays documenting the various meetings and exchanges =
between Eisenman, Tschumi, and Derrida. These exchanges, read together =
with Derrida=92s broader consideration of the kh=F4ra (in particular) =
and of the trace (more generally), can be seen to form a dialogue on the =
aesthetics of space. But this is not mere architectural discussion or =
theory; Derrida=92s implicit and explicit discussions of space imply a =
particular textual and typographic practice that implicates works such =
as <i>Glas</i>, <i>The Post Card</i>, and <i>The Truth in Painting</i> =
not to mention <i>Chora L Works</i> itself. Through the columns of =
<i>Glas</i>, framed by the borders of <i>The Truth in Painting</i>, the =
structural and literal holes of <i>Chora L Works</i> invite the =
consideration of the Derridean architextual practice =96 from the =
aesthetics of the textual space to the anesthetics of spatial text. DOI: =
10.3138/utq.83.3.739<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:14.0pt'>Submissions to =
UTQ<o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>University of Toronto =
Quarterly welcomes contributions in all areas of the humanities =96 =
literature, philosophy, fine arts, music, the history of ideas, cultural =
studies, and so on. It favours articles that appeal to a scholarly =
readership beyond the specialists in the field of the given submission. =
For full details, please visit <a =
href=3D"http://www.utpjournals.com/utq"><span =
style=3D'color:blue'>www.utpjournals.com/utq</span></a><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><b>University of Toronto =
Quarterly<o:p></o:p></b></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Acclaimed as one of the =
finest journals focused on the humanities, <i>University of Toronto =
Quarterly</i> is filled with serious, probing, and vigorously researched =
articles spanning a wide range of subjects in the humanities. Often the =
best insights in one field of knowledge come through =
cross-fertilization, where authors can apply another discipline=92s =
ideas, concepts, and paradigms to their own disciplines<i>. UTQ</i> is =
not a journal where one philosopher speaks to another, but a place where =
a philosopher can speak to specialists and general readers in many other =
fields. This interdisciplinary approach provides a depth and quality to =
the journal that attracts both general readers and specialists from =
across the humanities.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><i><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-CA'><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></i></b></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><a =
href=3D"http://r20.rs6.net/tn.jsp?e=3D0014fNZV97uWt3XWyk2ytzvOsuYq8021N4H=
7rG0xznCNBjjVwInTrLbbg_k0-EM5ABjNzr8_r485uN1UoYHcOsY3Itogm1cfRz54m6fuj5Pr=
S4LcgnQpuZADILefLJhbzR7" target=3D"_blank"><b><i><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-CA'>Univers=
ity of Toronto Quarterly Online</span></i></b></a><b><i><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-CA'> =
</span></i></b><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-CA'>-</span=
></b><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:red;mso-fareast-language:EN-CA'> =
COMPLETE ARCHIVE NOW AVAILABLE!</span></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-CA'><o:p></=
o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-CA'><o:p> </o:p></span>=
</p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-CA'>The <i>University of =
Toronto Quarterly</i> complete archive of over 3200 articles and =
reviews, from 1930 to present, is now available online. <i>UTQ =
Online</i> is an extraordinary electronic resource of the humanities. =
It's all here - literature, philosophy, fine arts, music, the history of =
ideas, cultural studies, and much more! </span><a =
href=3D"http://bit.ly/utqonline"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>http://bit.ly/utqonline</span></a><span =
style=3D'color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-CA'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p=
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-CA'><o:p> </o:p></span>=
</p><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Partial =
archive - 1977-2014</span></b><b><span style=3D'font-size:14.0pt'> =
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------=_NextPart_000_0331_01D01EA9.2E1181F0--
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2014 22:59:26 +0000
Reply-To: British & Irish poets <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: British & Irish poets <[log in to unmask]>
From: David Bircumshaw <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Wishing Everyone On
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d0443066ecffd55050aea22cf
Message-ID: <[log in to unmask]>
--f46d0443066ecffd55050aea22cf
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
A Germinous Geminous Sprout and Spout of a Yule and Nowell to You Too Sean,
and The Rest of Youse.
ddab
On 23 December 2014 at 09:19, Sean Carey <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> The list a Happy Christmas and a Happy New Year. Thinking of those who
> left us year as well as those who are ill.
>
>
> Love from
>
> Sean C
> Sent from AOL Mobile Mail
>
--
David Joseph Bircumshaw
Website and A Chide's Alphabet
http://www.staplednapkin.org.uk
The Animal Subsides http://www.arrowheadpress.co.uk/books/animal.html
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/david.bircumshaw
Tumblr: http://zantikus.tumblr.com/
twitter: http://twitter.com/bucketshave
blog: http://groggydays.blogspot.com/
Leicester Poetry Society: http://www.poetryleicester.com
--f46d0443066ecffd55050aea22cf
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>A Germinous Geminous Sprout and Spout of a Yule and N=
owell to You Too Sean, and The Rest of Youse.<br><br></div>ddab<br><div cla=
ss=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 23 December 2014 at 09=
:19, Sean Carey <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]
uk" target=3D"_blank">[log in to unmask]</a>></span> wrote:<br><block=
quote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc=
solid;padding-left:1ex"><br>The list a Happy Christmas and a Happy New Yea=
r. Thinking of those who left us year as well as those who are ill.=C2=A0<d=
iv><br></div><div><br></div><div>Love from=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>S=
ean C=C2=A0<br>Sent from AOL Mobile Mail</div></blockquote></div><br><br cl=
ear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><div><div dir=3D"ltr">David Joseph Bircumshaw<br><di=
v><i><span style=3D"font-style:italic"></span></i></div>Website and A Chide=
's Alphabet<br><a href=3D"http://www.staplednapkin.org.uk" target=3D"_b=
lank">http://www.staplednapkin.org.uk</a> <br>The Animal Subsides <a href=
=3D"http://www.arrowheadpress.co.uk/books/animal.html" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tp://www.arrowheadpress.co.uk/books/animal.html</a><br>Facebook: <a href=3D=
"http://www.facebook.com/david.bircumshaw" target=3D"_blank">http://www.fac=
ebook.com/david.bircumshaw</a><br>Tumblr: <a href=3D"http://zantikus.tumblr=
.com/" target=3D"_blank">http://zantikus.tumblr.com/</a><br>twitter: <a hre=
f=3D"http://twitter.com/bucketshave" target=3D"_blank">http://twitter.com/b=
ucketshave</a><br>blog: <a href=3D"http://groggydays.blogspot.com/" target=
=3D"_blank">http://groggydays.blogspot.com/</a><br>Leicester Poetry Society=
: <a href=3D"http://www.poetryleicester.com" target=3D"_blank">http://www.p=
oetryleicester.com</a><br></div></div>
</div></div>
--f46d0443066ecffd55050aea22cf--
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2014 06:38:13 -0500
Reply-To: British & Irish poets <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: British & Irish poets <[log in to unmask]>
From: Sean Carey <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Wishing Everyone On
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="----=_Part_8683_733497460.1419421093777"
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------=_Part_8683_733497460.1419421093777
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Many Happy Returns David!
SC
Sent from AOL Mobile Mail
-----Original Message-----
From: David Bircumshaw <[log in to unmask]>
To: BRITISH-IRISH-POETS <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Tue, Dec 23, 2014 11:00 PM
Subject: Re: Wishing Everyone On
<div id="AOLMsgPart_2_6f983911-60be-44a9-97b3-3c4bc3522c56">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
A Germinous Geminous Sprout and Spout of a Yule and Nowell to You Too Sean, and The Rest of Youse.
ddab
<div class="aolmail_gmail_extra">
<div class="aolmail_gmail_quote">
On 23 December 2014 at 09:19, Sean Carey
<span dir="ltr"><<a target="_blank" href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>></span> wrote:
<blockquote class="aolmail_gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
The list a Happy Christmas and a Happy New Year. Thinking of those who left us year as well as those who are ill.
Love from
Sean C
Sent from AOL Mobile Mail
</blockquote>
</div>
<br clear="all">
--
<div dir="ltr">
David Joseph Bircumshaw
<div>
<i><span style="font-style:italic"></span></i>
Website and A Chide's Alphabet
<a target="_blank" href="http://www.staplednapkin.org.uk">http://www.staplednapkin.org.uk</a>
The Animal Subsides
<a target="_blank" href="http://www.arrowheadpress.co.uk/books/animal.html">http://www.arrowheadpress.co.uk/books/animal.html</a>
Facebook:
<a target="_blank" href="http://www.facebook.com/david.bircumshaw">http://www.facebook.com/david.bircumshaw</a>
Tumblr:
<a target="_blank" href="http://zantikus.tumblr.com/">http://zantikus.tumblr.com/</a>
twitter:
<a target="_blank" href="http://twitter.com/bucketshave">http://twitter.com/bucketshave</a>
blog:
<a target="_blank" href="http://groggydays.blogspot.com/">http://groggydays.blogspot.com/</a>
Leicester Poetry Society:
<a target="_blank" href="http://www.poetryleicester.com">http://www.poetryleicester.com</a>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
------=_Part_8683_733497460.1419421093777
Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Many Happy Returns David!<div><br></div><div><br></div><div>SC<br><br>Sent from AOL Mobile Mail<br><br><br>-----Original Message-----<br>From: David Bircumshaw <[log in to unmask]><br>To: BRITISH-IRISH-POETS <[log in to unmask]><br>Sent: Tue, Dec 23, 2014 11:00 PM<br>Subject: Re: Wishing Everyone On<br><br><br>
<div id="AOLMsgPart_2_6f983911-60be-44a9-97b3-3c4bc3522c56">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
A Germinous Geminous Sprout and Spout of a Yule and Nowell to You Too Sean, and The Rest of Youse.
<br>
<br>
</div>ddab
<br>
<div class="aolmail_gmail_extra">
<br>
<div class="aolmail_gmail_quote">
On 23 December 2014 at 09:19, Sean Carey
<span dir="ltr"><<a target="_blank" href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>></span> wrote:
<br>
<blockquote class="aolmail_gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>The list a Happy Christmas and a Happy New Year. Thinking of those who left us year as well as those who are ill.
<div>
<br>
</div>
<div>
<br>
</div>
<div>
Love from
</div>
<div>
<br>
</div>
<div>
Sean C
<br>Sent from AOL Mobile Mail
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
<br clear="all">
<br>--
<br>
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
David Joseph Bircumshaw
<br>
<div>
<i><span style="font-style:italic"></span></i>
</div>Website and A Chide's Alphabet
<br>
<a target="_blank" href="http://www.staplednapkin.org.uk">http://www.staplednapkin.org.uk</a>
<br>The Animal Subsides
<a target="_blank" href="http://www.arrowheadpress.co.uk/books/animal.html">http://www.arrowheadpress.co.uk/books/animal.html</a>
<br>Facebook:
<a target="_blank" href="http://www.facebook.com/david.bircumshaw">http://www.facebook.com/david.bircumshaw</a>
<br>Tumblr:
<a target="_blank" href="http://zantikus.tumblr.com/">http://zantikus.tumblr.com/</a>
<br>twitter:
<a target="_blank" href="http://twitter.com/bucketshave">http://twitter.com/bucketshave</a>
<br>blog:
<a target="_blank" href="http://groggydays.blogspot.com/">http://groggydays.blogspot.com/</a>
<br>Leicester Poetry Society:
<a target="_blank" href="http://www.poetryleicester.com">http://www.poetryleicester.com</a>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
------=_Part_8683_733497460.1419421093777--
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2014 12:58:02 +0000
Reply-To: British & Irish poets <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: British & Irish poets <[log in to unmask]>
From: goby-goodby <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Wishing Everyone On
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Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2014 07:55:14 -0500
Reply-To: British & Irish poets <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: British & Irish poets <[log in to unmask]>
From: Sean Carey <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Many Happy Returns John
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And well done for your superb Collected of Dylan Thomas's work. For far too long Thomas was seen in too narrow a focus which meant his personality became more important than the poetry. He also to an extent was sidelined from The Modernist canon but you have corrected that in your book.
Best Wishes
S
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<br>And well done for your superb Collected of Dylan Thomas's work. For far too long Thomas was seen in too narrow a focus which meant his personality became more important than the poetry. He also to an extent was sidelined from The Modernist canon but you have corrected that in your book.<div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Best Wishes</div><div><br></div><div>S<br>Sent from AOL Mobile Mail</div>
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Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2014 09:14:43 -0500
Reply-To: British & Irish poets <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: British & Irish poets <[log in to unmask]>
From: Sean Carey <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Fwd: [New post] Chris McCabe=?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=99s_?=Speculatrix
(Penned in the Margins, 2014)
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From: Tears in the Fence <[log in to unmask]>
To: sean.carey1 <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Fri, Dec 19, 2014 07:45 AM
Subject: [New post] Chris McCabe=E2=80=99s Speculatrix (Penned in the Margi=
ns, 2014)
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<tbody>
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<td> <span style=3D"display:none !important"> tearsinthefence posted: "=
The apparatus of capital, sexual intrigue, notoriety and death, and the Cit=
y of London echo through the taut and visceral musicality of the sonnets th=
at are at the heart of Chris McCabe=E2=80=99s Speculatrix. Written from the=
perspective of characters in Jacobean" </span>=20
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r" class=3D"aolmail_subscribe-body" style=3D"width: 100%; padding: 10px">=
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: 10px;">Respond to this post by replying above this line</td>=20
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1.6em; background-color: #EFEFEF; border-bottom: 1px solid #DDD; margin: 0=
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<td> <h2 class=3D"aolmail_subscribe-title" style=3D"margin=
: .4em 0 .3em; font-size: 1.8em; font-size: 16px!important; line-height: 1;=
font-weight: 400; color: #464646; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica=
, Arial, sans-serif; margin: 5px 20px!important; padding: 0;"> New post on =
<strong>Tears in the Fence</strong> </h2> </td>=20
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=3D"aolmail_head-avatar" alt=3D"" src=3D"http://s.wordpress.com/i/emails/bl=
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ellpadding=3D"20" bgcolor=3D"#ffffff">=20
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=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0">=20
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<td style=3D"width: 60px !important; white-space: =
nowrap; vertical-align: top;"> <a style=3D"text-decoration: underline; colo=
r: #2585B2; display: block; margin-right: 10px;" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"=
http://tearsinthefence.com/author/tearsinthefence/"><img border=3D"0" alt=
=3D"" class=3D"aolmail_avatar aolmail_avatar-50" height=3D"50" width=3D"50"=
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0&d=3Didenticon&r=3DG"></a> </td>=20
<td> <h2 class=3D"aolmail_post-title" style=3D"mar=
gin: .4em 0 .3em; font-size: 1.8em; font-size: 1.6em; color: #555; margin: =
0; font-size: 20px;"><a style=3D"text-decoration: underline; color: #2585B2=
; text-decoration: none !important;" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://tears=
inthefence.com/2014/12/19/chris-mccabes-speculatrix-penned-in-the-margins-2=
014/">Chris McCabe=E2=80=99s Speculatrix (Penned in the Margins, 2014)</a><=
/h2> <span style=3D"color: #888;">by <a style=3D"text-decoration: underline=
; color: #2585B2; color: #888 !important;" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http:/=
/tearsinthefence.com/author/tearsinthefence/">tearsinthefence</a></span> </=
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</table>=20
<div class=3D"aolmail_post-content" style=3D"directio=
n: ltr; margin-top: 1em; max-width: 560px;">=20
<p style=3D"direction: ltr; font-size: 14px; line-he=
ight: 1.4em; color: #444; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial, =
sans-serif; margin: 0 0 1em">The apparatus of capital, sexual intrigue, not=
oriety and death, and the City of London echo through the taut and visceral=
musicality of the sonnets that are at the heart of Chris McCabe=E2=80=99s =
<em>Speculatrix</em>. Written from the perspective of characters in Jacobea=
n plays and set where the play was first performed, they offer a commentary=
on the chaotic, threatened and threatening world of early modern theatre. =
A =E2=80=98speculatrix=E2=80=99, meaning =E2=80=98she that spies or watches=
=E2=80=99 or female spy, introduces the idea of being watched and watching =
with the sense of anxiety and tension that accompanies such activity. The p=
oems adequately convey that twitchiness and probe deeper.</p>=20
<p style=3D"direction: ltr; font-size: 14px; line-he=
ight: 1.4em; color: #444; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial, =
sans-serif; margin: 0 0 1em">Each sonnet is prefaced by a short introductio=
n on the character, which speaks, when and where, with the implied undercur=
rent coming initially from the play=E2=80=99s sub-text. Thus the Duke of Br=
achiano from John Webster=E2=80=99s <em>The White Devil</em> at the Red Bul=
l, Clerkenwell, in 1612 =E2=80=98who visits the home of Camillo=E2=80=99s w=
ife, Vittoria Corombona=E2=80=99 where Camillo is killed by Brachiano=E2=80=
=99s secretary in what is staged to be a vaulting accident. Vittoria is put=
on trial for Camillo=E2=80=99s death and sentenced to a =E2=80=98house of =
convertities=E2=80=99. Whereas criticism mostly views Vittoria as the White=
Devil, and the Duke her seducer, the narrative spins off into the world of=
the audience and actor where =E2=80=98all / that is left behind is to make=
our bodies act out the desires / they now have words for.=E2=80=99 The spe=
aker gives rise to doubt as to whom is the white devil, who is in charge of=
whom, and where purity may be found. McCabe echoes Webster=E2=80=99s conce=
rns with sexual intrigue, the configuring of the double negatives of the fl=
esh, and financial power within a chaotic and disturbed world. </p>=20
<p style=3D"direction: ltr; font-size: 14px; line-he=
ight: 1.4em; color: #444; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial, =
sans-serif; margin: 0 0 1em">Vindice, whose wife is murdered on their weddi=
ng day, from Thomas Middleton=E2=80=99s <em>The Revenger=E2=80=99s Tragedy<=
/em> says:</p>=20
<p style=3D"direction: ltr; font-size: 14px; line-he=
ight: 1.4em; color: #444; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial, =
sans-serif; margin: 0 0 1em">I=E2=80=99ve seen skulls with better teeth tha=
n this excessive
in death as an eunuch=E2=80=99s archived <em>Playboys</em>
after the extraction the black sock in the ditch of the
mouth a debit of bones cindered in corsets as
Southwark=E2=80=99s abscess drains green in the
Thames</p>=20
<p style=3D"direction: ltr; font-size: 14px; line-he=
ight: 1.4em; color: #444; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial, =
sans-serif; margin: 0 0 1em">The sonnets mostly eschew the vernacular of Ja=
cobean drama for a taut and spiky contemporary language use, with claws, wo=
rms, zombies and maggots to indicate decay, which probes the role of gender=
and the City in both the early modern and our own period. When the Duchess=
from Webster=E2=80=99s <em>The Duchess of Malfi </em>speaks she says: =E2=
=80=98you imagine me wanting / you watching this who=E2=80=99s watching who=
? / Speculatrix=E2=80=99 and the narrative immediately quotes from the play=
, =E2=80=98Now there=E2=80=99s a rough-cast phrase to / your plastique=E2=
=80=99 bringing the matter of how language is used to frame gender relation=
s and definitions into play. Beneath the narratives are the cloak of disgui=
se and subterfuge, and the constant threat of discovery, labelling, impriso=
nment and death.</p>=20
<p style=3D"direction: ltr; font-size: 14px; line-he=
ight: 1.4em; color: #444; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial, =
sans-serif; margin: 0 0 1em">McCabe tackles the theme of contemporary socia=
l unrest in London, with a poem about the August 2011 London riots, =E2=80=
=98Teenage Riot, Daydream Nation=E2=80=99, commissioned for a Sonic Youth t=
ribute and inspired by the music of Louis Zukofsky=E2=80=99s <em>=E2=80=9CA=
=E2=80=9D</em>, which ends =E2=80=98In these acts there are no skies, there=
are only bricks=E2=80=99. Other poems in the collection concern the artist=
, Francis Bacon, poets Rimbaud, Barry MacSweeney, and Tim Allen and the Ply=
mouth Language Club. This collection is one of the poetic highlights of 201=
4. McCabe gave an intense and exhilarating reading from <em>Speculatrix</em=
> at the Tears in the Fence Festival in October and at the book=E2=80=99s l=
aunch at St John=E2=80=99s Priory crypt, Clerkenwell. It is well worth read=
ing.</p>=20
<p style=3D"direction: ltr; font-size: 14px; line-he=
ight: 1.4em; color: #444; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial, =
sans-serif; margin: 0 0 1em">David Caddy 19th December 2014</p>=20
<div style=3D"direction: ltr; clear: both"></div>=20
</div>=20
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r: #2585B2;" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://tearsinthefence.com/author/te=
arsinthefence/">tearsinthefence</a></strong> | December 19, 2014 at 7:45 am=
| Tags:=20
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B2;" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://tearsinthefence.com/?tag=3Dchris-mcca=
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<br><br>Sent from AOL Mobile Mail<br><br><br>-----Original Message-----<br>=
From: Tears in the Fence <[log in to unmask]><br>To: sean.ca=
rey1 <[log in to unmask]><br>Sent: Fri, Dec 19, 2014 07:45 AM<br>S=
ubject: [New post] Chris McCabe=E2=80=99s Speculatrix (Penned in the Margin=
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<td> <span style=3D"display:none !important"> tearsinthefence posted: "=
The apparatus of capital, sexual intrigue, notoriety and death, and the Cit=
y of London echo through the taut and visceral musicality of the sonnets th=
at are at the heart of Chris McCabe=E2=80=99s Speculatrix. Written from the=
perspective of characters in Jacobean" </span>=20
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w post on <strong>Tears in the Fence</strong> </h2> </td>=20
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<td style=3D"width: 60px !important; white-space: =
nowrap; vertical-align: top;"> <a style=3D"text-decoration: underline; colo=
r: #2585B2; display: block; margin-right: 10px;" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"=
http://tearsinthefence.com/author/tearsinthefence/"><img border=3D"0" alt=
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0&d=3Didenticon&r=3DG"></a> </td>=20
<td> <h2 class=3D"aolmail_post-title" style=3D"mar=
gin: .4em 0 .3em; font-size: 1.8em; font-size: 1.6em; color: #555; margin: =
0; font-size: 20px;"><a style=3D"text-decoration: underline; color: #2585B2=
; text-decoration: none !important;" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://tears=
inthefence.com/2014/12/19/chris-mccabes-speculatrix-penned-in-the-margins-2=
014/">Chris McCabe=E2=80=99s Speculatrix (Penned in the Margins, 2014)=
</a></h2> <span style=3D"color: #888;">by <a style=3D"text-decoration: unde=
rline; color: #2585B2; color: #888 !important;" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"h=
ttp://tearsinthefence.com/author/tearsinthefence/">tearsinthefence</a></spa=
n> </td>=20
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<div class=3D"aolmail_post-content" style=3D"directio=
n: ltr; margin-top: 1em; max-width: 560px;">=20
<p style=3D"direction: ltr; font-size: 14px; line-he=
ight: 1.4em; color: #444; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Helvetic=
a, Arial, sans-serif; margin: 0 0 1em">The apparatus of capital, sexual int=
rigue, notoriety and death, and the City of London echo through the taut an=
d visceral musicality of the sonnets that are at the heart of Chris McCabe=
=E2=80=99s <em>Speculatrix</em>. Written from the perspective of characters=
in Jacobean plays and set where the play was first performed, they offer a=
commentary on the chaotic, threatened and threatening world of early moder=
n theatre. A =E2=80=98speculatrix=E2=80=99, meaning =E2=80=98she that spies=
or watches=E2=80=99 or female spy, introduces the idea of being watched an=
d watching with the sense of anxiety and tension that accompanies such acti=
vity. The poems adequately convey that twitchiness and probe deeper.</p>=20
<p style=3D"direction: ltr; font-size: 14px; line-he=
ight: 1.4em; color: #444; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Helvetic=
a, Arial, sans-serif; margin: 0 0 1em">Each sonnet is prefaced by a short i=
ntroduction on the character, which speaks, when and where, with the implie=
d undercurrent coming initially from the play=E2=80=99s sub-text. Thus the =
Duke of Brachiano from John Webster=E2=80=99s <em>The White Devil</em> at t=
he Red Bull, Clerkenwell, in 1612 =E2=80=98who visits the home of Camillo=
=E2=80=99s wife, Vittoria Corombona=E2=80=99 where Camillo is killed by Bra=
chiano=E2=80=99s secretary in what is staged to be a vaulting accident. Vit=
toria is put on trial for Camillo=E2=80=99s death and sentenced to a =E2=80=
=98house of convertities=E2=80=99. Whereas criticism mostly views Vittoria =
as the White Devil, and the Duke her seducer, the narrative spins off into =
the world of the audience and actor where =E2=80=98all / that is left behin=
d is to make our bodies act out the desires / they now have words for.=E2=
=80=99 The speaker gives rise to doubt as to whom is the white devil, who i=
s in charge of whom, and where purity may be found. McCabe echoes Webster=
=E2=80=99s concerns with sexual intrigue, the configuring of the double neg=
atives of the flesh, and financial power within a chaotic and disturbed wor=
ld. </p>=20
<p style=3D"direction: ltr; font-size: 14px; line-he=
ight: 1.4em; color: #444; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Helvetic=
a, Arial, sans-serif; margin: 0 0 1em">Vindice, whose wife is murdered on t=
heir wedding day, from Thomas Middleton=E2=80=99s <em>The Revenger=E2=80=99=
s Tragedy</em> says:</p>=20
<p style=3D"direction: ltr; font-size: 14px; line-he=
ight: 1.4em; color: #444; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Helvetic=
a, Arial, sans-serif; margin: 0 0 1em">I=E2=80=99ve seen skulls with better=
teeth than this excessive<br> in death as an eunuch=E2=80=99s archived <em=
>Playboys</em><br> after the extraction the black sock in the ditch of the<=
br> mouth a debit of bones cindered in corsets as<br> Southwark=E2=80=99s a=
bscess drains green in the<br> Thames</p>=20
<p style=3D"direction: ltr; font-size: 14px; line-he=
ight: 1.4em; color: #444; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Helvetic=
a, Arial, sans-serif; margin: 0 0 1em">The sonnets mostly eschew the vernac=
ular of Jacobean drama for a taut and spiky contemporary language use, with=
claws, worms, zombies and maggots to indicate decay, which probes the role=
of gender and the City in both the early modern and our own period. When t=
he Duchess from Webster=E2=80=99s <em>The Duchess of Malfi </em>speaks she =
says: =E2=80=98you imagine me wanting / you watching this who=E2=80=99s wat=
ching who? / Speculatrix=E2=80=99 and the narrative immediately quotes from=
the play, =E2=80=98Now there=E2=80=99s a rough-cast phrase to / your plast=
ique=E2=80=99 bringing the matter of how language is used to frame gender r=
elations and definitions into play. Beneath the narratives are the cloak of=
disguise and subterfuge, and the constant threat of discovery, labelling, =
imprisonment and death.</p>=20
<p style=3D"direction: ltr; font-size: 14px; line-he=
ight: 1.4em; color: #444; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Helvetic=
a, Arial, sans-serif; margin: 0 0 1em">McCabe tackles the theme of contempo=
rary social unrest in London, with a poem about the August 2011 London riot=
s, =E2=80=98Teenage Riot, Daydream Nation=E2=80=99, commissioned for a Soni=
c Youth tribute and inspired by the music of Louis Zukofsky=E2=80=99s <em>=
=E2=80=9CA=E2=80=9D</em>, which ends =E2=80=98In these acts there are no sk=
ies, there are only bricks=E2=80=99. Other poems in the collection concern =
the artist, Francis Bacon, poets Rimbaud, Barry MacSweeney, and Tim Allen a=
nd the Plymouth Language Club. This collection is one of the poetic highlig=
hts of 2014. McCabe gave an intense and exhilarating reading from <em>Specu=
latrix</em> at the Tears in the Fence Festival in October and at the book=
=E2=80=99s launch at St John=E2=80=99s Priory crypt, Clerkenwell. It is wel=
l worth reading.</p>=20
<p style=3D"direction: ltr; font-size: 14px; line-he=
ight: 1.4em; color: #444; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Helvetic=
a, Arial, sans-serif; margin: 0 0 1em">David Caddy 19th December 2014</p>=
=20
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</div>=20
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color: #999; font-size: .9em; margin-top: 4px; line-height: 160%; padding: =
15px 0 15px; border-top: 1px solid #eee; border-bottom: 1px solid #eee; ove=
rflow: hidden">=20
<strong><a style=3D"text-decoration: underline; colo=
r: #2585B2;" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://tearsinthefence.com/author/te=
arsinthefence/">tearsinthefence</a></strong> | December 19, 2014 at 7:45 am=
| Tags:=20
<a style=3D"text-decoration: underline; color: #2585=
B2;" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://tearsinthefence.com/?tag=3Dchris-mcca=
be">Chris McCabe</a>,=20
<a style=3D"text-decoration: underline; color: #2585=
B2;" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://tearsinthefence.com/?tag=3Djacobean-d=
rama">Jacobean drama</a>,=20
<a style=3D"text-decoration: underline; color: #2585=
B2;" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://tearsinthefence.com/?tag=3Djohn-webst=
er">John Webster</a>,=20
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<a style=3D"text-decoration: underline; color: #2585=
B2;" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://tearsinthefence.com/?tag=3Dspeculatri=
x">Speculatrix</a>,=20
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dleton">Thomas Middleton</a> | Categories:=20
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B2;" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://tearsinthefence.com/?cat=3D178">Books=
</a>,=20
<a style=3D"text-decoration: underline; color: #2585=
B2;" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://tearsinthefence.com/?cat=3D12064">Eng=
lish Poetry</a> | URL:=20
<a style=3D"text-decoration: underline; color: #2585=
B2;" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://wp.me/p21wmQ-B3">http://wp.me/p21wmQ-=
B3</a>=20
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------=_Part_11560_487310079.1419603283886--
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2014 16:59:15 +0000
Reply-To: British & Irish poets <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: British & Irish poets <[log in to unmask]>
From: Walsh Mills <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: In Good Weather the Sign Outside reads Danger Quicksand by Sarah
Hymas: A Review 2014
MIME-Version: 1.0
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--001a11395036da9e9a050b217186
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Now live on my blog:
https://ellipticalmovements.wordpress.com/2014/12/26/in-good-weather-the-sign-outside-reads-danger-quicksand-by-sarah-hymas-a-review/
--001a11395036da9e9a050b217186
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<div dir=3D"ltr">Now live on my blog:<br><div><br><a href=3D"https://ellipt=
icalmovements.wordpress.com/2014/12/26/in-good-weather-the-sign-outside-rea=
ds-danger-quicksand-by-sarah-hymas-a-review/">https://ellipticalmovements.w=
ordpress.com/2014/12/26/in-good-weather-the-sign-outside-reads-danger-quick=
sand-by-sarah-hymas-a-review/</a><br></div></div>
--001a11395036da9e9a050b217186--
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2014 12:40:32 +0000
Reply-To: British & Irish poets <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: British & Irish poets <[log in to unmask]>
From: Tilla Brading <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: In Good Weather the Sign Outside reads Danger Quicksand by
Sarah Hymas: A Review 2014
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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Sarah Hymas a nice discover; thanks. Sorry I can't be bothered with the =
rigmarole of 'liking' it on Facebook =85.
Good writing in the New Year to all.
Tilla
Tilla Brading
[log in to unmask]
On 26 Dec 2014, at 16:59, Walsh Mills <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
Now live on my blog:
=
https://ellipticalmovements.wordpress.com/2014/12/26/in-good-weather-the-s=
ign-outside-reads-danger-quicksand-by-sarah-hymas-a-review/
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dwindows-1252"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; =
"><div>Sarah Hymas a nice discover; thanks. Sorry I can't be bothered =
with the rigmarole of 'liking' it on Facebook =85.</div><div>Good =
writing in the New Year to all.</div><div>Tilla</div><br><div =
apple-content-edited=3D"true">
<div>Tilla Brading</div><div><a =
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a></div><div><br></=
div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
<br><div><div>On 26 Dec 2014, at 16:59, Walsh Mills <<a =
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>> =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div dir=3D"ltr">Now =
live on my blog:<br><div><br><a =
href=3D"https://ellipticalmovements.wordpress.com/2014/12/26/in-good-weath=
er-the-sign-outside-reads-danger-quicksand-by-sarah-hymas-a-review/">https=
://ellipticalmovements.wordpress.com/2014/12/26/in-good-weather-the-sign-o=
utside-reads-danger-quicksand-by-sarah-hymas-a-review/</a><br></div></div>=
</div><br></body></html>=
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Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2014 09:25:39 -0500
Reply-To: British & Irish poets <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: British & Irish poets <[log in to unmask]>
From: BlazeVOX <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Three days remaining!!!
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Our sincere thanks to all who have supported BlazeVOX [books] during this season
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the great literary voices. There are still 3 more days to make a gift in 2014.
Donate to BlazeVOX Press and support our core mission-to create conversations between
readers, writers, and artists. When you support BlazeVOX, you help to ensure:
* * The publication of decidedly non-commercial books of poetry, prose, and select
non-fiction and literary criticism;
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Place Library;
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Upcoming Projects by:
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Budget for 2015 books to be published
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BlazeVOX Poetry series at Brighton Place Library
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Finalize our process of achieving our Not-For-Profit status
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<p style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;">Send your check to:</p>
<p style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"> </p>
<div>BlazeVOX [books]<br /> 131 Euclid Ave<br /> Kenmore, New York 14217<=
br /> <a style=3D"color:#ff8900;font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font=
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olor:#ffffff;display: table;" bgcolor=3D"#ffffff" border=3D"0" width=3D"100=
%" cellpadding=3D"0" cellspacing=3D"0" id=3D"content_LETTER.BLOCK19"><tr><t=
d style=3D"background-color:#ff8900;color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" bgcolor=3D"#ff890=
0" width=3D"3" rowspan=3D"1" colspan=3D"1"><img height=3D"1" border=3D"0" w=
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if;font-size:10pt;padding:15px;" width=3D"100%" rowspan=3D"1" colspan=3D"1"=
align=3D"left">
<div style=3D"color:#ff8900;font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;margin:0=
;font-size:18pt;"><strong>Give today!</strong></div>
<div>
<p style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; font-size: 14pt;"><span>&n=
bsp;</span></p>
<p style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; font-size: 14pt; text-alig=
n: center;" align=3D"center"><span><a shape=3D"rect" href=3D"https://www.pa=
ypal.com/cgibin/webscr?first_name=3DBRITISH-POETS%40JISCMAIL.AC.UK&last_nam=
e=3D&undefined_quantity=3D1&[log in to unmask]&image_url=3D&return=
=3D&cancel_return=3D&item_name=3DAnnual%20Fund%20Drive%202014&amount=3D25&s=
hipping=3D0¤cy_code=3DUSD&item_number=3D&cmd=3D_xclick&bn=3Dctct_Ecom=
_EmailMarketing_PPS" target=3D"_blank"><img border=3D"0" alt=3D"undefined" =
src=3D"https://www.paypal.com/en_US/i/btn/x-click-but11.gif" /></a><br />&n=
bsp;</span></p>
<p style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; font-size: 14pt;"><span>Ou=
r sincere thanks to all who have supported BlazeVOX [books] during this sea=
son of giving. If you haven't yet made a donation, it's not too late to hel=
p us champion the great literary voices. There are still 3 more days to mak=
e a gift in 2014.</span></p>
<p style=3D"font-size: 14pt; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><span st=
yle=3D"font-size: 14pt;">Donate to BlazeVOX Press</span><span style=3D"font=
-size: 14pt;"> and support our core mission-to create conversations between=
readers, writers, and artists. When you support BlazeVOX, you help to ensu=
re:</span></p>
<p style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; font-size: 14pt;"><span>&n=
bsp;</span></p>
<ul><li style=3D"font-size: 14pt;"><span>*<span> </span></span>=
<span>The publication of decidedly non-commercial books of poetry, prose, a=
nd select non-fiction and literary criticism;<br /> </span></li><li st=
yle=3D"font-size: 14pt;"><span>*<span> </span></span><span>Inno=
vative programming and events, such as our BlazeVOX Poetry series at Bright=
on Place Library;<br /> </span></li><li style=3D"font-size: 14pt;"><sp=
an>*<span> </span></span><span>BlazeVOX an online journal of vo=
ice- a biannual online journal featuring poetry, fiction and creative non-f=
iction;<br /> </span></li><li style=3D"font-size: 14pt;"><span>*<span>=
</span></span><span>Internships for young people every year-in=
cluding aspiring writers-where they learn the ins and outs of small press p=
ublishing.</span></li></ul>
<p style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; font-size: 14pt;"> </=
p>
<p style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; font-size: 14pt; text-alig=
n: center;" align=3D"center"><a shape=3D"rect" href=3D"https://www.paypal.c=
om/cgibin/webscr?first_name=3DBRITISH-POETS%40JISCMAIL.AC.UK&last_name=3D&u=
ndefined_quantity=3D1&[log in to unmask]&image_url=3D&return=3D&ca=
ncel_return=3D&item_name=3DAnnual%20Fund%20Drive%202014&amount=3D25&shippin=
g=3D0¤cy_code=3DUSD&item_number=3D&cmd=3D_xclick&bn=3Dctct_Ecom_Email=
Marketing_PPS" target=3D"_blank"><img border=3D"0" alt=3D"undefined" src=3D=
"https://www.paypal.com/en_US/i/btn/x-click-but11.gif" /></a> </p>
<p style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; font-size: 14pt;"><span>&n=
bsp;</span></p>
<p style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; font-size: 14pt;"><span>We=
ask that you make a commitment to support our annual appeal by making a ca=
sh donation. This year our goal is $10,000, and we hope that you will be ab=
le to make a contribution. Your generosity will make a difference in our co=
mmunity by allowing us to continue in our work. Remember that every donatio=
n makes a difference, regardless of size. </span></p>
<p style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; font-size: 14pt;"><span>&n=
bsp;</span></p>
<p style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; font-size: 14pt;"><span>Th=
ank you in advance for your support!</span></p>
<p style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; font-size: 14pt;"><span>&n=
bsp;</span></p>
<p style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; font-size: 14pt;"><span>Si=
ncerely, <br />Geoffrey Gatza</span></p>
<p style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; font-size: 14pt;"> </=
p>
<div style=3D"font-size: 12pt;">Editor & Publisher <br /></div>
<p style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; font-size: 12pt;"><span>Bl=
azeVOX [ books ]</span></p>
<p style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"> </p>
</div>
<p style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"> </p>
<p style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"> </p>
<p style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"> </p>
</td></tr></table>
<table border=3D"0" width=3D"100%" cellspacing=3D"0" cellpa=
dding=3D"0">
<tr>
<td rowspan=3D"1" colspan=3D"1"><img height=3D"16" bord=
er=3D"0" width=3D"1" src=3D"http://img.constantcontact.com/letters/images/s=
pacer.gif" /></td>
</tr>
</table> =20
<a name=3D"LETTER.BLOCK21"></a><table style=3D"background-c=
olor:#ffffff;" bgcolor=3D"#ffffff" border=3D"0" width=3D"100%" cellpadding=
=3D"0" cellspacing=3D"0" id=3D"content_LETTER.BLOCK21"><tr><td style=3D"bac=
kground-color:#ff8900;color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" bgcolor=3D"#ff8900" width=3D"3"=
rowspan=3D"1" colspan=3D"1"><img height=3D"1" border=3D"0" width=3D"3" src=
=3D"https://imgssl.constantcontact.com/letters/images/spacer.gif" /></td><t=
d style=3D"color:#333333;font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:1=
0pt;padding:15px;" width=3D"100%" rowspan=3D"1" colspan=3D"1" align=3D"left=
">
<div style=3D"color:#ff8900;font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;margin:0=
;font-size:18pt;"><strong>Fundraising Goals</strong></div>
<div>
<p style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"> </p>
<p style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;">Our annual fundraising go=
al of $10,000 is earmarked to replenish operating funds, build a budget for=
forthcoming books in our 2015 publishing season, and build a small reserve=
.</p>
<p style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"> </p>
<p style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><strong>Upcoming Projects=
by:</strong></p>
<p style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"> </p>
<p style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;">John Tranter, Seth Abrams=
on, Kazim Ali, Kristina Marie Darling, Luke McMullan, Anne Gorrick, Vincent=
Katz, Roger Craik, Tony Trigilio, Jared Schickling, Jeffrey Conway, Susan =
Lewis, Kay Porter, and Peter Siedlecki</p>
<p style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"> </p>
<p style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><strong>Budget for funds<=
/strong></p>
<p style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"> </p>
<p style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;">75% </p>
<p style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;">Budget for 2015 books to =
be published =
&nbs=
p; </p>
<p style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><span style=3D"font-size:=
10pt;">5% </sp=
an></p>
<p style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><span style=3D"font-size:=
10pt;">B</span><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt;">lazeVOX Poetry series at B=
righton Place Library &nbs=
p; </span></p>
<p style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;">20% &nbs=
p;</p>
<p style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;">Finalize our process of a=
chieving our Not-For-Profit status</p>
<p style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"> </p>
<p style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"> </p>
<p style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;">BlazeVOX is working towar=
ds getting its 501c3 organization status and as a registered nonprofit corp=
oration in the state of New York. Please help us achieve that goal for us t=
o prosper in the future.</p>
</div>
<p style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"> </p>
</td></tr></table>
<table border=3D"0" width=3D"100%" cellspacing=3D"0" cellpa=
dding=3D"0">
<tr>
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er=3D"0" width=3D"1" src=3D"http://img.constantcontact.com/letters/images/s=
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width=3D"600" style=3D"display:block;" src=3D"http://img.constantcontact.c=
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------=_Part_171494385_430818558.1419863139214--
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2014 01:25:34 +0000
Reply-To: British & Irish poets <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: British & Irish poets <[log in to unmask]>
From: Chris Kerr <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Call for Submissions: Magma Poetry "Violence" Issue
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Hello list,
I'm co-editing an upcoming issue of *Magma Poetry *magazine with Kayo
Chingonyi. I'm working to make sure that there's as much experimental,
innovative and avant-garde work in the issue as possible (troubled terms I
know). It'd be really great to receive some submissions from list members.
I hope you don't mind this message out of the blue.
The theme is Violence, interpreted very broadly, but we're also looking for
poems that don't fit that topic whatsoever.
The deadline is the 31st of January <x-apple-data-detectors://4> and you'll
find more details here
<http://magmapoetry.com/call-for-contributions-magma-62-on-the-theme-of-violence/>.
Best wishes,
Chris Kerr
--089e012942ee1fab02050b64deb0
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<blockquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><font><span style=3D"backgr=
ound-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)"><span></span>Hello list,<br></span></font><=
div><font><span style=3D"background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)"><br></span><=
/font></div><div><font><span style=3D"background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)"=
>I'm co-editing an upcoming issue of=C2=A0<i>Magma=C2=A0Poetry=C2=A0</i=
>magazine with Kayo Chingonyi. I'm working to make sure that there'=
s as much experimental, innovative and avant-garde work in the issue as pos=
sible (troubled terms I know). It'd be really great to receive some sub=
missions from list members. I hope you don't mind this message out of t=
he blue.=C2=A0</span></font></div><div><font><span style=3D"background-colo=
r:rgba(255,255,255,0)"><br></span></font></div><div><font><span style=3D"ba=
ckground-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)">The theme is Violence, interpreted very=
broadly, but we're also looking for poems that don't fit that topi=
c whatsoever.</span></font></div><div><font><span style=3D"background-color=
:rgba(255,255,255,0)"><br></span></font></div><div><font><span style=3D"bac=
kground-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)">The deadline is=C2=A0<a href=3D"x-apple-=
data-detectors://4">the 31st of January</a>=C2=A0and you'll find more d=
etails=C2=A0<a href=3D"http://magmapoetry.com/call-for-contributions-magma-=
62-on-the-theme-of-violence/" target=3D"_blank">here</a>. =C2=A0</span></fo=
nt></div></div><div><span style=3D"background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0);fon=
t-size:small"><br></span></div><div><span style=3D"background-color:rgba(25=
5,255,255,0);font-size:small">Best wishes,</span><br></div><div><font><span=
style=3D"background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)"><br></span></font></div><di=
v><font><span style=3D"background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)">Chris Kerr</sp=
an></font></div></div></blockquote>
--089e012942ee1fab02050b64deb0--
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2014 08:43:46 -0500
Reply-To: British & Irish poets <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: British & Irish poets <[log in to unmask]>
From: Al Filreis <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: new series of commentaries
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1283)
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boundary="Apple-Mail=_08F4C1B2-766D-478B-85BD-56553EF8E9B1"
Message-ID: <[log in to unmask]>
--Apple-Mail=_08F4C1B2-766D-478B-85BD-56553EF8E9B1
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charset=us-ascii
Here is a new series of commentaries - called "Clipping" - on =
experiments with audio recordings of poetry:
=
http://jacket2.org/commentary/experiments-poetry-audio-data-extension-form=
-and-content
- Al Filreis=
--Apple-Mail=_08F4C1B2-766D-478B-85BD-56553EF8E9B1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
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charset=us-ascii
<html><head></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">Here is a new series of commentaries - called "Clipping" - on experiments with audio recordings of poetry:<div><br></div><div><a href="http://jacket2.org/commentary/experiments-poetry-audio-data-extension-form-and-content">http://jacket2.org/commentary/experiments-poetry-audio-data-extension-form-and-content</a></div><div><br></div><div>- Al Filreis</div></body></html>
--Apple-Mail=_08F4C1B2-766D-478B-85BD-56553EF8E9B1--
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2014 10:47:16 -0500
Reply-To: British & Irish poets <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: British & Irish poets <[log in to unmask]>
From: Al Filreis <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: new PoemTalk on Wallace Stevens
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1283)
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="Apple-Mail=_9BC3A7D2-78BA-4DB7-8C88-CEA773B2E4D0"
Message-ID: <[log in to unmask]>
--Apple-Mail=_9BC3A7D2-78BA-4DB7-8C88-CEA773B2E4D0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset=windows-1252
Today we are releasing episode 83 of the podcast series "PoemTalk"=97a =
discussion of a late meta-poem by Wallace Stevens, "The Poem That Took =
the Place of a Mountain," with Susan Howe, Dee Morris & Nancy Kuhl.
https://jacket2.org/content/poem-talk
http://www.poetryfoundation.org/features/audioitem/4892
PoemTalk is cosponsored by PennSound, the Kelly Writers House and the =
Poetry Foundation. All episodes are hosted by and linked at Jacket2 =
magazine, the Poetry Foundation web site, and iTunes.
Al Filreis
http://writing.upenn.edu/~afilreis
--Apple-Mail=_9BC3A7D2-78BA-4DB7-8C88-CEA773B2E4D0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
charset=windows-1252
<html><head></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">Today =
we are releasing <a =
href=3D"https://jacket2.org/podcasts/there-it-was-poemtalk-83">episode =
83</a> of the podcast series "PoemTalk"=97a discussion of a late =
meta-poem by Wallace Stevens, "The Poem That Took the Place of a =
Mountain," with Susan Howe, Dee Morris & Nancy =
Kuhl.<div><br></div><div><a =
href=3D"https://jacket2.org/content/poem-talk">https://jacket2.org/content=
/poem-talk</a></div><div><a =
href=3D"http://www.poetryfoundation.org/features/audioitem/4892">http://ww=
w.poetryfoundation.org/features/audioitem/4892</a></div><div><br></div><di=
v>PoemTalk is cosponsored by <a =
href=3D"http://writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/">PennSound</a>, the <a =
href=3D"http://writing.upenn.edu/wh/">Kelly Writers House</a> and =
the <a href=3D"http://www.poetryfoundation.org/">Poetry =
Foundation</a>. All episodes are hosted by and linked at <a =
href=3D"https://jacket2.org/"><i>Jacket2</i> magazine</a>, =
the <a =
href=3D"http://www.poetryfoundation.org/features/audio?show=3DPoem%20Talk"=
>Poetry Foundation web site</a>, and <a =
href=3D"https://itunes.apple.com/artist/poetry-foundation/id270144143">iTu=
nes</a>.</div><div><br></div><div apple-content-edited=3D"true">
<span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: separate; =
color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Garamond; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: =
auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><span =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: separate; color: =
rgb(0, 0, 0); font-variant: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: =
normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: =
auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div style=3D"word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space; "><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
style=3D"border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-variant: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; =
text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; =
white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: =
auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div><font =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" size=3D"1">Al Filreis</font></div><div><font =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-size: 16px; "><a =
href=3D"http://writing.upenn.edu/~afilreis">http://writing.upenn.edu/~afil=
reis</a></font></div><div style=3D"font-family: Garamond; font-size: =
medium; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; =
"><br></div></span></div></span></span></div><br></body></html>=
--Apple-Mail=_9BC3A7D2-78BA-4DB7-8C88-CEA773B2E4D0--
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2014 10:46:35 -0500
Reply-To: British & Irish poets <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: British & Irish poets <[log in to unmask]>
From: Al Filreis <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: PoemTalk #83: Susan Howe,
Dee Morris & Nancy Kuhl on Wallace Stevens
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="Apple-Mail=_30D8A4F8-AF1F-470A-972B-220181D04BFB"
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1283)
Message-ID: <[log in to unmask]>
--Apple-Mail=_30D8A4F8-AF1F-470A-972B-220181D04BFB
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset=windows-1252
Today we are releasing episode 83 of the podcast series "PoemTalk"=97a =
discussion of a late meta-poem by Wallace Stevens, "The Poem That Took =
the Place of a Mountain," with Susan Howe, Dee Morris & Nancy Kuhl.
https://jacket2.org/content/poem-talk
http://www.poetryfoundation.org/features/audioitem/4892
PoemTalk is cosponsored by PennSound, the Kelly Writers House and the =
Poetry Foundation. All episodes are hosted by and linked at Jacket2 =
magazine, the Poetry Foundation web site, and iTunes.
Al Filreis
http://writing.upenn.edu/~afilreis
--Apple-Mail=_30D8A4F8-AF1F-470A-972B-220181D04BFB
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
charset=windows-1252
<html><head></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">Today =
we are releasing <a =
href=3D"https://jacket2.org/podcasts/there-it-was-poemtalk-83">episode =
83</a> of the podcast series "PoemTalk"=97a discussion of a late =
meta-poem by Wallace Stevens, "The Poem That Took the Place of a =
Mountain," with Susan Howe, Dee Morris & Nancy =
Kuhl.<div><br></div><div><a =
href=3D"https://jacket2.org/content/poem-talk">https://jacket2.org/content=
/poem-talk</a></div><div><a =
href=3D"http://www.poetryfoundation.org/features/audioitem/4892">http://ww=
w.poetryfoundation.org/features/audioitem/4892</a></div><div><br></div><di=
v>PoemTalk is cosponsored by <a =
href=3D"http://writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/">PennSound</a>, the <a =
href=3D"http://writing.upenn.edu/wh/">Kelly Writers House</a> and =
the <a href=3D"http://www.poetryfoundation.org/">Poetry =
Foundation</a>. All episodes are hosted by and linked at <a =
href=3D"https://jacket2.org/"><i>Jacket2</i> magazine</a>, the <a =
href=3D"http://www.poetryfoundation.org/features/audio?show=3DPoem%20Talk"=
>Poetry Foundation web site</a>, and <a =
href=3D"https://itunes.apple.com/artist/poetry-foundation/id270144143">iTu=
nes</a>.</div><div><br></div><div><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
style=3D"font-size: x-small; ">Al Filreis</span></div><div><div =
apple-content-edited=3D"true"><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; =
"><div><font class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-size: 16px; "><a =
href=3D"http://writing.upenn.edu/~afilreis">http://writing.upenn.edu/~afil=
reis</a></font></div><div style=3D"font-family: Garamond; font-size: =
medium; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; "><br></div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"></div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
<br></div></body></html>=
--Apple-Mail=_30D8A4F8-AF1F-470A-972B-220181D04BFB--
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2014 15:17:17 +0000
Reply-To: British & Irish poets <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: British & Irish poets <[log in to unmask]>
From: Peter Riley <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: web magazine
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v936)
Message-ID: <[log in to unmask]>
Not long ago a notice of a new issue of a web magazine (I have an
aversion to the word "webzine") arrived here, which contained two or
three new poems by Denise Riley. Can anyone remember what it was? I
thought I had saved it but I hadn't.
thanks
Pr
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2014 10:30:21 -0500
Reply-To: British & Irish poets <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: British & Irish poets <[log in to unmask]>
From: John Latta <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: web magazine
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=90e6ba3fd72d1fc3fa050b84c97b
Message-ID: <[log in to unmask]>
--90e6ba3fd72d1fc3fa050b84c97b
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Peter,
Intercapillary Space?
http://intercapillaryspace.blogspot.com/2014/12/four-poems-by-denise-riley.html
Best,
John
On Wed, Dec 31, 2014 at 10:17 AM, Peter Riley <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> Not long ago a notice of a new issue of a web magazine (I have an aversion
> to the word "webzine") arrived here, which contained two or three new poems
> by Denise Riley. Can anyone remember what it was? I thought I had saved it
> but I hadn't.
>
> thanks
> Pr
>
--90e6ba3fd72d1fc3fa050b84c97b
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
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<div dir=3D"ltr">Peter,<div><br></div><div>Intercapillary Space?</div><div>=
<br></div><div><a href=3D"http://intercapillaryspace.blogspot.com/2014/12/f=
our-poems-by-denise-riley.html">http://intercapillaryspace.blogspot.com/201=
4/12/four-poems-by-denise-riley.html</a><br></div><div><br></div><div>Best,=
</div><div>John</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gma=
il_quote">On Wed, Dec 31, 2014 at 10:17 AM, Peter Riley <span dir=3D"ltr">&=
lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" target=3D"_blank">priley@waitrose=
.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"ma=
rgin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Not long ago a=
notice of a new issue of a web magazine (I have an aversion to the word &q=
uot;webzine") arrived here, which contained two or three new poems by =
Denise Riley. Can anyone remember what it was? I thought I had saved it but=
I hadn't.<br>
<br>
thanks<span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br>
Pr<br>
</font></span></blockquote></div><br></div>
--90e6ba3fd72d1fc3fa050b84c97b--
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2014 16:50:11 +0000
Reply-To: British & Irish poets <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: British & Irish poets <[log in to unmask]>
From: Peter Riley <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: web magazine
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-7--644219954
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v936)
Message-ID: <[log in to unmask]>
--Apple-Mail-7--644219954
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format=flowed;
delsp=yes
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That's it. Thanks John.
peter
On 31 Dec 2014, at 15:30, John Latta wrote:
Peter,
Intercapillary Space?
http://intercapillaryspace.blogspot.com/2014/12/four-poems-by-denise-riley.html
Best,
John
On Wed, Dec 31, 2014 at 10:17 AM, Peter Riley <[log in to unmask]>
wrote:
Not long ago a notice of a new issue of a web magazine (I have an
aversion to the word "webzine") arrived here, which contained two or
three new poems by Denise Riley. Can anyone remember what it was? I
thought I had saved it but I hadn't.
thanks
Pr
--Apple-Mail-7--644219954
Content-Type: text/html;
charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<html><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">That's it. Thanks =
John. <div>peter</div><div><br></div><div><br><div><div>On 31 Dec =
2014, at 15:30, John Latta wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div =
dir=3D"ltr">Peter,<div><br></div><div>Intercapillary =
Space?</div><div><br></div><div><a =
href=3D"http://intercapillaryspace.blogspot.com/2014/12/four-poems-by-deni=
se-riley.html">http://intercapillaryspace.blogspot.com/2014/12/four-poems-=
by-denise-riley.html</a><br></div><div><br></div><div>Best,</div><div>John=
</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On =
Wed, Dec 31, 2014 at 10:17 AM, Peter Riley <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a =
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" =
target=3D"_blank">[log in to unmask]</a>></span> =
wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 =
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Not long ago a notice =
of a new issue of a web magazine (I have an aversion to the word =
"webzine") arrived here, which contained two or three new poems by =
Denise Riley. Can anyone remember what it was? I thought I had saved it =
but I hadn't.<br> <br> thanks<span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font =
color=3D"#888888"><br> Pr<br> =
</font></span></blockquote></div><br></div></div><br></div></body></html>=
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