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OK then. Thanks for that. Can't argue. I shall continue to pursue issues, boojums being extinct due to harpooning L On 24 November 2014 at 17:57, Douglas Barbour <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > The issue for me, L, may be that my fingers tied that when I meant > something else (whatever it was long gone from my mind); mainly I was > trying to say that much was happening, some of which 'we' (in > anglos-american poetries) got one way or another & found ways to use too. > > So, I didn't mean 'problematize' although perhaps I should have. > Certainly, all that happened outside our narrow purview 'troubles' the > cliché version sod modernism that ignore other languages & cultures.. > > One of the good things about the Penguin anthology on Modernism was how it > at least took account of what was happening in most of the major cities in > Europe... > > Doug > On Nov 24, 2014, at 9:46 AM, Lawrence Upton <[log in to unmask]> > wrote: > > > Sorry Didn't realise it was an issue for you > > > > L > > > > On 24 November 2014 at 16:36, James Cervantes <[log in to unmask] > > > > wrote: > > > >> What's the problem here? We all have our stuffs. > >> > >> - Jim > >> > >> On Mon, Nov 24, 2014 at 10:21 AM, Lawrence Upton < > [log in to unmask]> > >> wrote: > >> > >>> So "stuffing the modernisms of other languages/cultures"? > >>> > >>> L. > >>>> > >>> > >>> On 24 November 2014 at 15:59, Halvard Johnson <[log in to unmask]> > wrote: > >>> > >>>> The word "issue" nowadays is roughly the same in meaning as "stuff." > >> (Oh, > >>>> yes, I exaggerate, but not by much.) > >>>> > >>>> On Monday, November 24, 2014, Lawrence Upton <[log in to unmask] > > > >>>> wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> Doug > >>>>> > >>>>> I apologise for this question. I have to ask but am not trying to > >> make > >>>> fun. > >>>>> When you say: > >>>>> > >>>>>> I think you're right that some of us (like me) tend to be too > >>>>> anglo-centric, > >>>>> thus issuing the modernisms of other languages/cultures. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> and say "issuing", do you mean "problematising"? > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> I first came across the word "issue" as an alternative to "problem" > >> or > >>>>> "mistake" etc, a way by corporations it seemed to me of rewriting a > >>>>> complaint, making it less worrying for them. I am due later to write > >> to > >>>>> Centrica, who deal in gas of all kinds over here, who have expressed > >>>> regret > >>>>> that I have issues when what I said was: they never answer > >>>> communications! > >>>>> > >>>>> If I read you correctly, this is a use of the word where the > >> transition > >>>> is > >>>>> complete. BUT for all I know it is commonplace over there. I haven't > >>>>> crossed the Atlantic in 2 and a half years. > >>>>> > >>>>> Really a mere inquiry > >>>>> > >>>>> L > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> On 22 November 2014 at 22:07, Douglas Barbour <[log in to unmask] > >>>>> <javascript:;>> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>> I take your point(s), Lawrence. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Indeed, it's clear the many rods of 'modernism's Britain were > >>> confused > >>>> & > >>>>>> confusing (certainly overlapping in many odd ways). > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I do think Donald Davie got a lot right in his Under Briggflatts, & > >>>> that > >>>>>> his account of the various streams is useful. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I think you're right that some of us (like me) tend to be too > >>>>>> anglo-centric, thus issuing the modernisms of other > >>> languages/cultures. > >>>>> As > >>>>>> someone limited to the English language, I only know such work > >>> through > >>>>>> translation, but it still allows for a lot. Yet, because what I > >>> learned > >>>>>> most from are works in english, even there I suspect I red poetry > >>> from > >>>>>> other languages through the english language poetics most important > >>> to > >>>>> me. > >>>>>> Thus, how I read Celan, for example. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Still, a useful nudge to think more subtly & in context(s)... > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Doug > >>>>>> On Nov 21, 2014, at 10:39 AM, Lawrence Upton < > >>> [log in to unmask] > >>>>> <javascript:;>> > >>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> Walking to my place of work this morning I was thinking of all > >> the > >>>>>> things I > >>>>>>> was going to say - and most of it I haven't - in reply > >>>>>>> One was picking up on the mention of Hardy. & I wanted to aver my > >>>> high > >>>>>>> regard for those poems & also a lot of the modernist push... but > >> I > >>>>> wanted > >>>>>>> to say that it ain't so simple(resisting the temptation to go all > >>> ira > >>>>>>> gershwin there) & thomas would have been one of my examples... > >>>> well,the > >>>>>>> example, but I was sure there were others. I'm not sure about > >> that > >>>> now. > >>>>>> But > >>>>>>> Edward Thomas certainly > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> so ta for that > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> & I was also going to say that it gets muddling once one steps > >> out > >>> of > >>>>> the > >>>>>>> anglo world & away from Ez or can do unless one does a great deal > >>> of > >>>>> work > >>>>>>> Work's ok, but there's not always time > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> I have a high regard for Ritsos, but my Greek is nowhere near > >> good > >>>>>> enough. > >>>>>>> And my background reading is still undone decades after I stopped > >>>>>> tramping > >>>>>>> around Greece. So I have access to a body of work that's just > >> sort > >>> of > >>>>>> there > >>>>>>> inexplicably in a largely empty room in my head > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> a bit like Syd Barrett sitting there and I'm not quite sure who > >> he > >>> is > >>>>> but > >>>>>>> he's very familiar > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> * > >>>>>>> and the oddity of how some of us start and stop with > >> enthusiasms. > >>>>>>> Somewhere between pre dawn and my first coffee, that crack of > >>>>> Meliville's > >>>>>>> about passing a coffin factory went through my mind and I decided > >>>> that > >>>>>> next > >>>>>>> I shall read again Moby Dick > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> that's all I have to say > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> nice w/e all > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> L > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> . > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> On 21 November 2014 16:48, Max Richards <[log in to unmask] > >>>>> <javascript:;>> wrote: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> [poem of the day from > >>>>>>>> Poetry Foundation.org] > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> The Thrush > >>>>>>>> When Winter's ahead, > >>>>>>>> What can you read in November > >>>>>>>> That you read in April > >>>>>>>> When Winter's dead? > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> I hear the thrush, and I see > >>>>>>>> Him alone at the end of the lane > >>>>>>>> Near the bare poplar's tip, > >>>>>>>> Singing continuously. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Is it more that you know > >>>>>>>> Than that, even as in April, > >>>>>>>> So in November, > >>>>>>>> Winter is gone that must go? > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Or is all your lore > >>>>>>>> Not to call November November, > >>>>>>>> And April April, > >>>>>>>> And Winter Winter--no more? > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> But I know the months all, > >>>>>>>> And their sweet names, April, > >>>>>>>> May and June and October, > >>>>>>>> As you call and call > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> I must remember > >>>>>>>> What died into April > >>>>>>>> And consider what will be born > >>>>>>>> Of a fair November; > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> And April I love for what > >>>>>>>> It was born of, and November > >>>>>>>> For what it will die in, > >>>>>>>> What they are and what they are not, > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> While you love what is kind, > >>>>>>>> What you can sing in > >>>>>>>> And love and forget in > >>>>>>>> All that's ahead and behind. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Edward Thomas 1878-1917 > >>>>>>>> [PF says: > >>>>>>>> Thomas wrote his first poems in 1914 at the urging of the > >> American > >>>>> poet > >>>>>>>> Robert Frost, > >>>>>>>> with whom he forged a friendship during Frost's years in > >> England. > >>>> .... > >>>>>>>> in 1915 he enlisted in the infantry and was killed two years > >> later > >>>> in > >>>>>> the > >>>>>>>> Battle of Arras, > >>>>>>>> while the first edition of his Poems (1917) was being prepared > >> for > >>>>>> press.] > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Douglas Barbour > >>>>>> [log in to unmask] <javascript:;> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Recent publications: (With Sheila E Murphy) Continuations & > >>>> Continuation > >>>>> 2 > >>>>>> (UofAPress). > >>>>>> Recording Dates (Rubicon Press). > >>>>>> > >>>>>> that we are only > >>>>>> as we find out we are > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Charles Olson > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> -- > >>>> :: from the desk of Halvard Johnson :: > >>>> > >>> > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> > >> https://www.amazon.com/author/jamescervantes > >> > >> Sleepwalker's Songs: New & Selected Poems. > >> http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#sleepwalkerssong > >> > >> http://www.hinchasdepoesia.com/ > >> > >> The Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org > >> > >> https://sites.google.com/site/jamesvcervantes/home > >> > >> http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamescervantes/ > >> > > > > Douglas Barbour > [log in to unmask] > > Recent publications: (With Sheila E Murphy) Continuations & Continuation 2 > (UofAPress). > Recording Dates (Rubicon Press). > > that we are only > as we find out we are > > Charles Olson >