I meant seen from the political perspectives of these islands rather than in a specific American definition and there are differences given the two party system applying across the ocean. This means less brands compared to European norms and he did indeed pay a price. On "Patterson" I now do not see it as the failure often critics claim it is and views welcome?






S

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-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Weiss <[log in to unmask]>
To: BRITISH-IRISH-POETS <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Fri, Nov 28, 2014 11:28 PM
Subject: Re: The Pound Problem


Williams was lifelong considerably left of center. It cost him the laureateship.

-----Original Message-----
From: Sean Carey
Sent: Nov 28, 2014 6:02 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: The Pound Problem

Indeed there were many others who harboured antisemitism and many who were happy to embrace the fascist cause like Pound. The usual reply from the fascist right is "the left were just as bad" which ignores the Soviet Union's role in fighting the Axis powers. Williams and Eliot were right of centre which may underestimate their political views. Spicer was not tolerant nor Stevens but I find Eliot's stance depressing given his Christian stance as an Anglo Catholic. To look at writers now in general most claim to be liberal or socialist in their thinking. I now see few poets claiming to be nationalists in a British and Irish context as in the days of R.S. Thomas or Hugh MacDiarmid or Thomas McGreevy. In the recent Scottish referendum I did not pay much attention to which writers went for a Yes or No vote but it made me think of MacDiarmid. It hit me that the conservative S.N.P. would never have been to Hugh's natural home nor indeed John MacLean's.


Two writers who interest me are Eugene Watters and Glyn Johns who are both hard to classify in terms of their politics but their subject matter is very international and eclectic in subject matter. After Conleth Ellis's early and sudden death Watters's chances of being seriously published vanished as I have no doubt that he would have edited Watters' poems and prose for publication. Unlike Watters Glyn Johns wrote in Irish as Eoghan O' Tuairisc yet their thinking is not that far apart when one examines their work. These were not local parish pump writers but cast a wide net that covered Wales Ireland and nations thousands of miles beyond the Atlantic or Irish Sea. They both knew what the advent of nuclear weapons meant when used by Harry Truman in 1945. I often feel Wales is neglected in a literary way despite Dylan Thomas and company. I cannot think of a modern Welsh anthology but one cannot keep track of everything so mea culpa if I am overlooking anything!

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-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Weiss <[log in to unmask]>
To: BRITISH-IRISH-POETS <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Fri, Nov 28, 2014 09:17 PM
Subject: Re: The Pound Problem


It's a much larger problem than Pound, of course. Many of the writers we revere present the same difficulties. Eliot didn't erect a system of hate, but he was just as vile and a lot less useful. Williams and Stevens were tinged with it, a more recent poet, Jack Spicer, has some real antisemitic ugliness, as of course do Shakespeare and Chaucer, and there are all the collaborationist French writers. One could go on. The point is that we find a way to read and learn from them. Otherwise there wouldn't be much to read.

-----Original Message-----
From: Sean Carey
Sent: Nov 28, 2014 3:21 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: The Pound Problem


It indeed is very hard to forgive Pound even more so with the passage of time and with fascism on the march from Ireland's Atlantic to Russia's Pacific. The amnesiac thinking of modern airbrushed fascists is very worrying given the awful slaughter of WW2 as well as The Balkan death statistics.  We now have many wars in progress but on both islands we dwell on local issues that only involve self interest or using minor causes for narrow political gain. I cringe when I see parties claiming to be "socialist" allied with hard right ultra nationalist parties on so many issues. To counter fascism requires more than slogans when one is marching with them on populist issues for short term gain. 

Indeed although Zukofsky made peace with Pound I often wonder was that out of mutual respect for his writing rather than total forgiveness? The other writers who also towed Ezra back into the fold were very forgiving but to read Pound is to feel the bile and the hate spew through the work. The defenders of Pound may well say focus on the text rather than on the undercurrents but we also must not forget WW2.
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-----Original Message-----
From: Aidan Semmens < [log in to unmask]>
To: BRITISH-IRISH-POETS < [log in to unmask]>
Sent: Fri, Nov 28, 2014 07:27 PM
Subject: Re: Around about 1982


The Pound issue is an old and still vexed one, Sean. One can forgive - or at least overlook - the unpleasantnesses of many painters, composers etc, setting what one knows of the artist aside from the art. But in Pound's case the foul political outlook, and especially the infantile anti-Semitism, is stitched so thoroughly into the writing that I find it hard to stomach. On the other hand, if Oppen, Zukofsky, Rakosi et al can look past it, I suppose I can too. I don't find it easy.
 


On Friday, 28 November 2014, 19:14, Sean Carey <[log in to unmask]> wrote:


Towards 1983 I can recall two gentlemen who did full readings and talks on Charles Olson and William Carlos Williams. Both were young Americans touring Europe both working as well as doing these events. I met them at different times in Dublin. A lot of water has gone down The Liffey since and yet I wonder did anyone know or meet them?


What they did had real value as it was ideal to introduce different poetics to audiences at reasonable prices. Regarding the political issue often Ezra Pound is targeted by mainstream critics on his fascist beliefs. P.W. Lewis also comes under fire but neither the mainstream or non mainstream avoided the issues that arose after World War One.

Pound's choices were no different than many others equally misguided who thought the hard right offered anything of value. In an Irish context as many went to fight for General Franco as the men and women who fought against him in Spain. A while back on looking at records of Cork fascist supporters who went to Spain I was very surprised at some on that list.

If the recent attack on Olson's politics is a sign I am sure the Pound issue will surface again. A question I ask is can one seperate Pound the writer from the fascist Pound?



-----Original Message-----
From: [log in to unmask]
To: BRITISH-IRISH-POETS
Sent: Fri, 28 Nov 2014 11:37
Subject: Re: I am pleased Olson remains in print

Part of the mainstream canon? Not remotely, Jaime. He's part of a very few teaching systems. Pierre didn't mention them all, but there aren't that many others. Go to Olson-themed events, as I do on occasion, and it's the usual cast of characters. He comes up more frequently on this list than on any of the US lists I've been a part of.

The mainstream in the US remains hostile to outsiders when it's not simply ignoring them. The situation is similar to the UK, tho not as bad.
-----Original Message-----
From: Jaime Robles
Sent: Nov 28, 2014 11:21 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: I am pleased Olson remains in print

Olson is also listed and given a fairly substantial presence in all the Norton poetry anthologies, including the Norton Anthology of Modern Poetry, the Norton Anthology of Poetry, and Postmodern American Poetry: A Norton Anthology. This would seem to indicate that, although he may not be part of some teaching systems, he is valued critically and seen as a part of the mainstream canon.

Cheers,
J


___________________________

Jaime Robles




On 28 Nov 2014, at 04:46, Sean Carey wrote:

And not at all surprised he has come under attack which is a classic form of trying to pigeon-hole a progressive writer into a bracket. I expect Frank O' Hara will be also hit given his political views in time.

The fact their books are in print in America is good news as I was only aware of the European situation.



-----Original Message-----
From: [log in to unmask]
To: BRITISH-IRISH-POETS
Sent: Fri, 28 Nov 2014 0:08
Subject: Re: the avant garde vs. the lyrical:the telephone book

It’s a bit more complicated than that Mark. Olson is being taught — at least in those University places that teach beyond the  Norton anthology. I retired a year ago but I taught Olson at Albany U regularly for over 20 years, as did Don Byrd — & there’s a bunch of other people. A recent book by Heriberto Yepez accusing Olson of being the prototypical Yankee imperialist & rip-offer of things Maya caused a lot of stir with people like Baraka (just prior to his death) & Ammiel Alcalay here & others on the West Coast raising a storm. I still have a couple students finishing dissertations on contemporary poetics with solid dollops of Olson. This past week at BAM (Brooklyn Academy of Music) there was a solid program by a Brooklyn youth choir about Black Mountain (Basil King played the narrator) that included a video of Olson reading, etc etc. Of course the trad MFA creative writing workshop types still can’t make sense of Olson — or of any of the poets of his generation, except for misreading Creeley, so that’s no surprise — & numerically they do indeed outnumber those interested in Olson, but that’s always been like that, as you well know.

Pierre
On Nov 27, 2014, at 4:34 PM, Mark Weiss < [log in to unmask]> wrote:

Olson remains both a lightning rod and a cult figure in the US. He's largely ignored anduntaught. For me he towers over most of his contemporaries.

Mark Weiss

-----Original Message-----  
From: Sean Carey  
Sent: Nov 27, 2014 3:55 PM  
To:   [log in to unmask]  
Subject: Re: the avant garde vs. the lyrical:the telephone book  

the A not an example of a new project but an elusive mouse. yes a viable option is to find a balance that can blend various strands of poetics. on Andrea I rate her work very highly but poetic theory now is of less interest than it was in past decades even when it is voiced by Andrea Brady. to move forwards requires moving into new mediums and platforms yet uncharted. Olson is gone since 1970 with nobody reaching his level which is just a personal view. he outflanked even the great 20th century novelists in scale and span as well as reaching their plateau in terms of output. the sum total of C.O.'s work is vast nor did he find the need to hide the core of his overall project by subverting the subject matter which is a flaw in Joyce's Finnegans Wake I feel. of course Joyce was constricted by the era he lived in just as Beckett was unable to translate the work of De Sade when May Beckett was alive for different reasons. 
 
 
it was sad that George F. Butterick left us so early given the quality of his scholarship on Olson. often I am curious on how modern America really sees Olson given that he was no lightweight in any sense including the political. John Noto I can find little trace of online but I liked what he was doing in a poetic mode of recording the sound and landscape he dwelled in with real style. the Noto terrain was hard urban hardball and superb. in a musical sense it reminded me of the work of Peaches the Canadian rock performer whose work I admire and respect. she works in a very basic form with shades of Andrea Brady's poetry and indeed Keston Sutherland's. I regret that Noto seems to have vanished unless anyone on this list can trace him?
 
 
to lose Olson in an American context would be very sad as then the tailspin would leave him forgotten beyond America. many great poets sink without trace after their deaths if nobody picks them up and tracks them for future generations. even Joyce despite all the lip service he gets in Ireland for cultural tourism reasons is more or less dead and buried simply because his work cannot be easily thought at 2nd or 3rd level. academics and teachers do not enjoy writers who demand a serious read in the same way social workers love working 9-5pm. quality Joyce scholars are very scarce on the island of Joyce's birth.
 
 
I hope America never loses sight of Olson and if it does it should hang its head in shame.
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Sean Carey < [log in to unmask]>
To: BRITISH-IRISH-POETS < [log in to unmask]>
Sent: Thu, 27 Nov 2014 20:09
Subject: Re: the avant garde vs. the lyrical:the telephone book

A
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From:   [log in to unmask]  < [log in to unmask]>
To: BRITISH-IRISH-POETS < [log in to unmask]>
Sent: Thu, 27 Nov 2014 17:01
Subject: Re: the avant garde vs. the lyrical:the telephone book

Hi Tim and Sean,

It is possible to see a poem that is free of any ego as simply one part of a complex-- the narcissistic side, or self-invested side, remaining hidden. Such a poem is lopsided in its 
presentation --truncating the field as it were, if one were to speak in the vein of Olson-- though one can usually feel something of what has been left out, precisely because the field is the field.
I am always surprised at this when I notice it, as I can imagine a poetry that describes the ego accurately to be as harrowing and enlightening as any undertaken, and one suitable for both a new kind of lyric and as a project worthy of an avant garde. 

David

On Nov 27, 2014, at 3:46 PM, Tim Allen wrote:

Yes, but there's still a difference between the ego being present within a poem and the ego remaining outside a poem, by which I mean we can write a poem which has no 'self' in it at all but about which we can feel very proud etc. We can be subjectively ego-centric about our objectivity.

I also like it when writers are objective about their nature as subjects, and I think a lot of the stuff I personally rate highly does that somehow.

Tim 


On 27 Nov 2014, at 14:33, Sean Carey wrote:

The ego never really goes despite our efforts to try to sidetrack it from our consciousness when writing leaving total objectivity impossible in any field of human endeavour.




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Coming in September, October & December:

<PastedGraphic-4.png>                      <RKcoverPix 2.jpg>                          <CelanCoverReduced copy 2.jpg>
       

Barzakh (Poems 2000-2012)                 A Voice Full of Cities: Paul Celan: Breathturn into Timestead
by Pierre Joris                                         The Collected Essays of Robert Kelly The Collected Later Poetry
                                                                Edited by Pierre Joris & Peter Cockelbergh    Translated & with commentary by Pierre Joris

Black Widow Press                 Contra Mundum Press   Farrar Straus & Giroux
  http://www.blackwidowpress.com/   /   http://contramundum.net/                        http://us.macmillan.com/books/9780374125981
_____________________________________________________
Pierre Joris 
cell: 518 225 7123518 225 7123 
email: [log in to unmask] 
http://pierrejoris.com 
Nomadics blog: http://pierrejoris.com/blog/ 
______________________________________________________
I don’t know if we can get rid of our “soul waste” more easily 
than of our “atomic waste” — Paul Celan
______________________________________________________

<image001.jpg>