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In the States you can't get much more canonical than the Norton anthologies, I believe. And canon means accepted into the form of writing as significant. Which means mainstream acceptance. Not necessarily mainstream popularity. So I think we are suffering from differences in definition about mainstream and, possibly, what constitutes canon. And isn't much of the dismay on the list about Olson's signified worthiness in poetry? Being in the canon isn't to say that any one poet at any one time won't go through episodes of popularity as well as being the object of attacks. These attacks often are competitive. Though like those against Pound they can be political and ideological and worth examining. The competitive attacks are mostly sound and fury. And there are of course huge regional differences in the US that are cultural as well as political. Being in the Bay Area I would guess there are few writing programs that don't touch on Olson's work. Paul Hoover begins his Postmodern American Poetry anthology with Olson, placing him in a foundational role. I taught Olson, and one of my clearest memories was of students asking me to explain a passage in Olson. They were moved to silence by the fact that I was able to paraphrase a text that seemed impervious to meaning. Which brought me to the thought that the larger problem dividing us was being able to read formally complex texts, especially syntactically unusual one. And that what writing classes needed to learn was not how to write clean, formally proper and syntactically understandable language but how to read idiosyncratic, cryptic, rebellious and messy texts. Most programs are goal, that is to say, writing oriented. Trying to remember that personal experience is not an argument. Cheers, J ___________________________ Jaime Robles On 28 Nov 2014, at 08:35, Mark Weiss wrote: > Part of the mainstream canon? Not remotely, Jaime. He's part of a very few teaching systems. Pierre didn't mention them all, but there aren't that many others. Go to Olson-themed events, as I do on occasion, and it's the usual cast of characters. He comes up more frequently on this list than on any of the US lists I've been a part of. > > The mainstream in the US remains hostile to outsiders when it's not simply ignoring them. The situation is similar to the UK, tho not as bad. > -----Original Message----- > From: Jaime Robles > Sent: Nov 28, 2014 11:21 AM > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: I am pleased Olson remains in print > > Olson is also listed and given a fairly substantial presence in all the Norton poetry anthologies, including the Norton Anthology of Modern Poetry, the Norton Anthology of Poetry, and Postmodern American Poetry: A Norton Anthology. This would seem to indicate that, although he may not be part of some teaching systems, he is valued critically and seen as a part of the mainstream canon. > > Cheers, > J > > > ___________________________ > > Jaime Robles > > > > > On 28 Nov 2014, at 04:46, Sean Carey wrote: > >> And not at all surprised he has come under attack which is a classic form of trying to pigeon-hole a progressive writer into a bracket. I expect Frank O' Hara will be also hit given his political views in time. >> >> The fact their books are in print in America is good news as I was only aware of the European situation. >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: [log in to unmask] >> To: BRITISH-IRISH-POETS >> Sent: Fri, 28 Nov 2014 0:08 >> Subject: Re: the avant garde vs. the lyrical:the telephone book >> >> It’s a bit more complicated than that Mark. Olson is being taught — at least in those University places that teach beyond the Norton anthology. I retired a year ago but I taught Olson at Albany U regularly for over 20 years, as did Don Byrd — & there’s a bunch of other people. A recent book by Heriberto Yepez accusing Olson of being the prototypical Yankee imperialist & rip-offer of things Maya caused a lot of stir with people like Baraka (just prior to his death) & Ammiel Alcalay here & others on the West Coast raising a storm. I still have a couple students finishing dissertations on contemporary poetics with solid dollops of Olson. This past week at BAM (Brooklyn Academy of Music) there was a solid program by a Brooklyn youth choir about Black Mountain (Basil King played the narrator) that included a video of Olson reading, etc etc. Of course the trad MFA creative writing workshop types still can’t make sense of Olson — or of any of the poets of his generation, except for misreading Creeley, so that’s no surprise — & numerically they do indeed outnumber those interested in Olson, but that’s always been like that, as you well know. >> >> Pierre >>> On Nov 27, 2014, at 4:34 PM, Mark Weiss <[log in to unmask]> wrote: >>> >>> Olson remains both a lightning rod and a cult figure in the US. He's largely ignored anduntaught. For me he towers over most of his contemporaries. >>> >>> Mark Weiss >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Sean Carey >>> Sent: Nov 27, 2014 3:55 PM >>> To: [log in to unmask] >>> Subject: Re: the avant garde vs. the lyrical:the telephone book >>> >>> the A not an example of a new project but an elusive mouse. yes a viable option is to find a balance that can blend various strands of poetics. on Andrea I rate her work very highly but poetic theory now is of less interest than it was in past decades even when it is voiced by Andrea Brady. to move forwards requires moving into new mediums and platforms yet uncharted. Olson is gone since 1970 with nobody reaching his level which is just a personal view. he outflanked even the great 20th century novelists in scale and span as well as reaching their plateau in terms of output. the sum total of C.O.'s work is vast nor did he find the need to hide the core of his overall project by subverting the subject matter which is a flaw in Joyce's Finnegans Wake I feel. of course Joyce was constricted by the era he lived in just as Beckett was unable to translate the work of De Sade when May Beckett was alive for different reasons. >>> >>> >>> it was sad that George F. Butterick left us so early given the quality of his scholarship on Olson. often I am curious on how modern America really sees Olson given that he was no lightweight in any sense including the political. John Noto I can find little trace of online but I liked what he was doing in a poetic mode of recording the sound and landscape he dwelled in with real style. the Noto terrain was hard urban hardball and superb. in a musical sense it reminded me of the work of Peaches the Canadian rock performer whose work I admire and respect. she works in a very basic form with shades of Andrea Brady's poetry and indeed Keston Sutherland's. I regret that Noto seems to have vanished unless anyone on this list can trace him? >>> >>> >>> to lose Olson in an American context would be very sad as then the tailspin would leave him forgotten beyond America. many great poets sink without trace after their deaths if nobody picks them up and tracks them for future generations. even Joyce despite all the lip service he gets in Ireland for cultural tourism reasons is more or less dead and buried simply because his work cannot be easily thought at 2nd or 3rd level. academics and teachers do not enjoy writers who demand a serious read in the same way social workers love working 9-5pm. quality Joyce scholars are very scarce on the island of Joyce's birth. >>> >>> >>> I hope America never loses sight of Olson and if it does it should hang its head in shame. >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Sean Carey <[log in to unmask]> >>> To: BRITISH-IRISH-POETS <[log in to unmask]> >>> Sent: Thu, 27 Nov 2014 20:09 >>> Subject: Re: the avant garde vs. the lyrical:the telephone book >>> >>> A >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: [log in to unmask] <[log in to unmask]> >>> To: BRITISH-IRISH-POETS <[log in to unmask]> >>> Sent: Thu, 27 Nov 2014 17:01 >>> Subject: Re: the avant garde vs. the lyrical:the telephone book >>> >>> Hi Tim and Sean, >>> >>> It is possible to see a poem that is free of any ego as simply one part of a complex-- the narcissistic side, or self-invested side, remaining hidden. Such a poem is lopsided in its >>> presentation --truncating the field as it were, if one were to speak in the vein of Olson-- though one can usually feel something of what has been left out, precisely because the field is the field. >>> I am always surprised at this when I notice it, as I can imagine a poetry that describes the ego accurately to be as harrowing and enlightening as any undertaken, and one suitable for both a new kind of lyric and as a project worthy of an avant garde. >>> >>> David >>> >>> On Nov 27, 2014, at 3:46 PM, Tim Allen wrote: >>> >>>> Yes, but there's still a difference between the ego being present within a poem and the ego remaining outside a poem, by which I mean we can write a poem which has no 'self' in it at all but about which we can feel very proud etc. We can be subjectively ego-centric about our objectivity. >>>> >>>> I also like it when writers are objective about their nature as subjects, and I think a lot of the stuff I personally rate highly does that somehow. >>>> >>>> Tim >>>> >>>> >>>> On 27 Nov 2014, at 14:33, Sean Carey wrote: >>>> >>>>> The ego never really goes despite our efforts to try to sidetrack it from our consciousness when writing leaving total objectivity impossible in any field of human endeavour. >>>> >>> >>> >> >> _____________________________________________________ >> Coming in September, October & December: >> >> <PastedGraphic-4.png> <RKcoverPix 2.jpg> <CelanCoverReduced copy 2.jpg> >> >> >> Barzakh (Poems 2000-2012) A Voice Full of Cities: Paul Celan: Breathturn into Timestead >> by Pierre Joris The Collected Essays of Robert Kelly The Collected Later Poetry >> Edited by Pierre Joris & Peter Cockelbergh Translated & with commentary by Pierre Joris >> >> Black Widow Press Contra Mundum Press Farrar Straus & Giroux >> http://www.blackwidowpress.com/ / http://contramundum.net/ http://us.macmillan.com/books/9780374125981 >> _____________________________________________________ >> Pierre Joris >> cell: 518 225 7123518 225 7123 >> email: [log in to unmask] >> http://pierrejoris.com >> Nomadics blog: http://pierrejoris.com/blog/ >> ______________________________________________________ >> I don’t know if we can get rid of our “soul waste” more easily >> than of our “atomic waste” — Paul Celan >> ______________________________________________________ >> >> <image001.jpg> >> >> _____________________________________________________ >> Coming in September, October & December: >> >> <PastedGraphic-4.png> <RKcoverPix 2.jpg> <CelanCoverReduced copy 2.jpg> >> >> >> Barzakh (Poems 2000-2012) A Voice Full of Cities: Paul Celan: Breathturn into Timestead >> by Pierre Joris The Collected Essays of Robert Kelly The Collected Later Poetry >> Edited by Pierre Joris & Peter Cockelbergh Translated & with commentary by Pierre Joris >> >> Black Widow Press Contra Mundum Press Farrar Straus & Giroux >> http://www.blackwidowpress.com/ / http://contramundum.net/ http://us.macmillan.com/books/9780374125981 >> _____________________________________________________ >> Pierre Joris >> cell: 518 225 7123518 225 7123 >> email: [log in to unmask] >> http://pierrejoris.com >> Nomadics blog: http://pierrejoris.com/blog/ >> ______________________________________________________ >> I don’t know if we can get rid of our “soul waste” more easily >> than of our “atomic waste” — Paul Celan >> ______________________________________________________ >> >> <image001.jpg> >> > >