David wrote:

Robin wrote:
"We could carry it further, I suppose, and try and identify whether the two distinct Latin forms of testis (a witness) and testiculus (the male genitalia) derive from a single Indo-European root, but I don’t think I want to go there."

Yes, this seems to be on the lines of where you don't want to go,

Maybe, maybe not, dave. There’s a clash between what you quote from Ayto: “Other English members of the ‘testis’ family include ‘testicle’ [15th century] (which etymologically bears witness to a man’s virility)” – and what the OED has, explicitly rejecting this: “An assumed identity [of testis in the sense of a testicle] with testis witness (quasi ‘the witness or evidence of virility’) is rejected by Walde, who suggests connection with testa, pot, shell, etc.”

If Ayto is correct, then the question doesn’t arise, as both TESTIMONY and TESTICLE have an origin in the same Latin word; if Walde [who he?] as cited by the OED is correct, then we’re still left with the question.

I think it’s beyond my competence to resolve this disagreement. On the whole, I’m inclined to go with the OED on this issue, but maybe we need a Latinist to help us out.

Glad you liked Larry. Hadn’t I laid it on you before? I thought I’d posted it to a list we were both on sometime ago, but perhaps I misremembered. More on the whole Dublin Cant business anon. Was your reference to the Original Upright Person of the Trinity bouncing off the cant meaning of an Upright Man, or was this just coincidence?

Cheers,

Robin

>TESTAMENT [13th century] ‘Testament’ is one of a range of English words that go back to Latin ‘testis’ – witness. This was derived from prehistoric Indo-European base ‘tris-’ three, and so denoted etymologically a ‘third person,’ who was not party to an agreement and thus could be a disinterested witness to it. Other English members of the ‘testis’ family include ‘testicle’ [15th century] (which etymologically bears witness to a man’s virility), ‘testimony’ [14th century], and the prefixed forms ‘attest’ [16th century], ‘contest,’ ‘detest,’ ‘intestate [14th century], and ‘protest.’ The use of ‘testament’ for ‘will’ was inspired by the notion of a ‘witnessed’ document. Its application to the two parts of the Bible arose from a mistranslation of Greek ‘diatheke,’ which meant both ‘covenant’ and ‘will, testament.’ It was used for the ‘covenant’ between God and human beings, but Latin translators rendered it as if it were being used for ‘will’ rather than ‘covenant. – Dictionary of Word Origins by John Ayto<

Seems to shed some light on the Third Person of the Trinity too :) Yer Original Upright Person. Or maybe one shouldn't go back to the root willy-nilly.

Dave :-)