 |
 |
Hi Jaime I saw a sparrowhawk taking prey recently and its act of seizing did make me think of the way logical expressions take hold of language. Frege died in 1925 so his enthusiasm for Herr Hitler predated the terrible vote (though it most definitely was never the case that the entire country supported the Nazis). We do have a painter-poet of a very high calibre in Blake and it is noticeable that the peaks in each form do not often coincide with him. There also can be wild variances - the visual image he makes of the Tyger is almost that of a big bland pussycat, very unlike anything summoned by the poem. The image nestled with the Poison Tree though, that of a dead flowing haired arms outstretched man beneath a sinister tree, does re-double the text. But imagery in poetry is not as stable as that of visual art. I 'see' something evoked by 'dawn in russett mantle clad' but it is not reproducible and although another might agree that something is summoned we cannot compare it. If I try to 'look' at what I see by the image it disappears, I can no more describe it to myself than to another. I'd be interested to hear from anyone who knows Japanese well on how the visual art of figures like Basho or Buson relates to their verbal textures. I have always been interested in the notion that the shorter forms of poetry do have a function of arresting time, to the space of a page, that can be seen in one, like a canvas, while the poem retains its temporal linearity. best db On 8 October 2014 23:58, Jaime Robles <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > It has not been my experience that a mathematical/logical viewpoint turned > on language is inherently negative, nor that there is a price to pay for > thought, mathematical or otherwise. Though there seems to be a commonly > held uneasiness toward science among people in the humanities. Certainly > Lewis Carroll exemplifies a benign aspect of this intersection. > > At Frede's point in history most European Christians were slavering > anti-Semites. And the majority of an entire country applauded Hitler and > followed the lead of his government. I'm not, of course, putting that > forward as a justification for either anti-Semitism or Hitler, but rather > to point out that he was not atypical in his politics or his religious > predilections. I can't really comment on the man, knowing little about him. > > But turning back to poetry. I would like to know what you think of > writers, especially poets, crossing over into visual arts. Do you think > these are two different kinds of language? Clearly, they are different > forms of expression. And how do you see them functioning, if they are two > kinds of language? > > Cheers, > J > > > ___________________________ > > Jaime Robles > > > > > On 8 Oct 2014, at 15:05, David Bircumshaw wrote: > > Yes, Jaime, Frege's paradoxes make me dizzy too. I noted that Frege > received Russell's definition only while his work was in proof "Russell > wrote to Frege with news of his paradox on June 16, 1902. ... The paradox > was of significance to Frege's logical work since, in effect, it showed > that the axioms Frege was using to formalize his logic were inconsistent." > with the result that Frege had to publish a work, the second volume of his > summa vitae, that was already partially undermined. > It is possibly disturbing to discover that Frege was somewhat negatively > preoccupied with Equality outside of logic and mathematics: he abhorred > universal suffrage, was a fervent anti-Semite, admired Bismarck and in his > later years applauded the advent of Herr Hitler. > Perhaps there is a price to play for turning the principles of calculus on > to language? > > best > > db > > On 8 October 2014 18:49, Jaime Robles <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > >> Thanks, David, all very useful. As you guessed I have been using Ogden's >> translation. >> >> And thanks for your previous comment. I had to look up Frege and after >> doing so may have some insight into your discomfort. What little symbolic >> logic I remember/ understand is from high school decades ago. >> >> The description of Frege at the blackboard reminds me of the pre-Vatican >> 2 practices for priests giving mass: with their backs to the congregation >> and in Latin, a somewhat distant and (post Rome) non-demotic language. The >> question, I suppose, is why turn your back to your audience? Shyness? >> Power? Perversity? Aspergers Syndrome? And/or, as I'd like to think, an >> absorption into the event. The event being in the case of priest the >> presence of the divine within the iconic cross, and in the event of Frege >> the purity of logic. And in both cases: a giving over to another form of >> consciousness. >> >> It's always difficult to say why someone does something, even for the >> person doing it. >> >> Language being a great mystery. >> >> Along with the definitions of Frege, The Dictionary of Philosophy listed >> the paradox that Russell found in Frege's work. Among several paradoxes, >> which reading literally made my head spin. But then, it was late at night. >> >> Cheers, >> J >> >> >> ___________________________ >> >> Jaime Robles >> >> >> >> >> On 8 Oct 2014, at 09:35, David Bircumshaw wrote: >> >> In the matter of translations of the Tractatus, btw, things area little >> more complex than a distinction between Wittgenstein's idiomatic German and >> Ogden's Cambridge translation. Professional philosophers prefer the 1958/74 >> translation of Pears and McGuinness but it should be noted that the 1921 >> translation by C.K.Ogden (who was also the creator of Basic English and an >> early admirer of Finnegans Wake) with the assistance of F.P.Ramsey (who had >> only recently learnt German) was published with the German en face and was >> decidedly Wittgenstein's authorised translation. Apparently Wittgenstein >> himself spoke English in a very fluent, 'Cambridge' style, though with some >> German turns of idiom. The Pears and McGuinness translation do though >> incorporate Wittgenstein's suggestions in later correspondence with Ogden. >> Very usefully, the German and Ogden and Pears/McGuinness are available >> side-by-side at: >> >> http://people.umass.edu/phil335-klement-2/tlp/tlp.html#bodytext >> >> On 8 October 2014 06:13, David Bircumshaw <[log in to unmask]> >> wrote: >> >>> Thank you for that Jaime. The picture (I use the word with care) of >>> Drucker's visit to the LACE event and the question it woke is very telling >>> (I use that word with care too). >>> >>> I'm currently, and not entirely happily. looking at Wittgenstein's >>> precursor, the Frege of 'Sense and Reference', a man whom a student painted >>> as lecturing chalk in hand at the blackboard, with his back to the class. >>> >>> >>> best >>> >>> db >>> >>> >>> >>> On 8 October 2014 05:44, Jaime Robles <[log in to unmask]> wrote: >>> >>>> Hello All, >>>> >>>> Fortnightly Review has just published an article of mine discussing >>>> Wittgenstein's ideas (some of them) about the pictorial nature of language >>>> in the light of several poets' work. Here is the link: >>>> http://fortnightlyreview.co.uk/2014/10/picturing-language/ >>>> >>>> I'm very pleased to have this out in the world. It discusses five >>>> poet's work: three women and two men, ranging from mid-30s in age to late >>>> sixties, and from the UK (2), the US (2) and Canada (1). Wittgenstein, as >>>> is well known, was male, an ESL Austrian, probably homosexual, misogynistic >>>> and is now dead. >>>> >>>> I am, despite the male spelling of my name, a W-O-M-A-N. I am also >>>> American but NOT a Yankee, think far west and Spanish-speaking rancheros, >>>> sadistic Catholic missionaries and heaps of dead Native Americans, the >>>> latter of which I am one/eighth. >>>> >>>> I'd love to hear what you think … of visual poetry, of the article, of >>>> language and its functions. Recommendations about other poets who work with >>>> visual art in concert with language would be valued. >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> Jaime >>>> >>>> >>>> ___________________________ >>>> >>>> Jaime Robles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> David Joseph Bircumshaw >>> Website and A Chide's Alphabet >>> http://www.staplednapkin.org.uk >>> The Animal Subsides http://www.arrowheadpress.co.uk/books/animal.html >>> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/david.bircumshaw >>> Tumblr: http://zantikus.tumblr.com/ >>> twitter: http://twitter.com/bucketshave >>> blog: http://groggydays.blogspot.com/ >>> Leicester Poetry Society: http://www.poetryleicester.com >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> David Joseph Bircumshaw >> Website and A Chide's Alphabet >> http://www.staplednapkin.org.uk >> The Animal Subsides http://www.arrowheadpress.co.uk/books/animal.html >> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/david.bircumshaw >> Tumblr: http://zantikus.tumblr.com/ >> twitter: http://twitter.com/bucketshave >> blog: http://groggydays.blogspot.com/ >> Leicester Poetry Society: http://www.poetryleicester.com >> >> >> > > > -- > David Joseph Bircumshaw > Website and A Chide's Alphabet > http://www.staplednapkin.org.uk > The Animal Subsides http://www.arrowheadpress.co.uk/books/animal.html > Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/david.bircumshaw > Tumblr: http://zantikus.tumblr.com/ > twitter: http://twitter.com/bucketshave > blog: http://groggydays.blogspot.com/ > Leicester Poetry Society: http://www.poetryleicester.com > > > -- David Joseph Bircumshaw Website and A Chide's Alphabet http://www.staplednapkin.org.uk The Animal Subsides http://www.arrowheadpress.co.uk/books/animal.html Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/david.bircumshaw Tumblr: http://zantikus.tumblr.com/ twitter: http://twitter.com/bucketshave blog: http://groggydays.blogspot.com/ Leicester Poetry Society: http://www.poetryleicester.com