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I think it's pretty clear that the language is sexist, with or without context. This degree of argument is disproportionate, given that it was framed as offensive why not just leave it or, if you do indeed find it interesting, investigate in a less public forum? You can think I'm wrong or over the top but if someone says something is alienating why not think 'fair enough' and just not use the phrase. What are you losing? What is the danger of 'condemning before you understand' in the context of a phrase used in passing on a listserv? And for the record Alice you got it spot on, you shouldn't have to apologise. R On 8 Oct 2014 09:48, "Alice Tarbuck" <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > Whilst I absolutely agree with understanding before you critique, I am > Scottish, and 'cute hoor' here has no second meaning, unlike in Ireland, > and thus I assumed I understood. > > Apologies that this was not the case, however I feel fairly strongly that > 'whorish politician' etc do still ring of sexism, but feel it is not > particularly worth expanding on. > > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* British & Irish poets <[log in to unmask]> on > behalf of Robin Hamilton <[log in to unmask]> > *Sent:* Wednesday, October 08, 2014 9:36 AM > *To:* [log in to unmask] > *Subject:* Re: On my return here > > Alison, > > This strand started with an objection to Sean’s use of the term “cute > hoor”, and Sean’s defence of it. His explanation was that it has a > specific meaning in the context of colloquial Irish speech, which does seem > to be the case. Whether or not it is fair to say that the term “cute hoor” > is inherently sexist is, it seems to me, at the least open to argument. Is > referring to a “whorish politician” sexist? Possibly, though I’d feel that > it would depend on the context, and a whole set of other things. > > But the discussion began from the use of a specific phrase. Surely at the > least on a poetry list, it’s worth exploring what the phrase means as it’s > used. > > There’s not really much point in condemning before you understand**, and I > certainly hadn’t come on the phrase before Sean used it. The *concept* of > politicians as “cute hoors” is certainly one that I’ve encountered. > > [Actually, as an aside, the closest analog I can think of to “cute hoor” > would be “fly boy”.] > > google incidentally gives 1,380 results for the phrase, "whorish > politicians". The few I looked at seemed to me offensive, but mostly > because the phrase seemed to be used glibly and unthinkingly. What emerged > as predominant was the unconsidered pejorative element rather than any > specific sexual reference. > > I think what I’m getting at here is that calling a politician a cute hoor > could be condemned as glib OR sexist OR both. Or neither. What it isn’t > is an *English* cliché. I mean, if I said that David Cameron was a cute > whore, it would mean something quite different to Sean referring to a local > Irish politician as a cute hoor. Part of the difference, of course, turns > on the first element of the phrase, attractive versus acute. > > Hm ... > > Robin > > ** By referring to “condemning before you understand”, I was thinking of > myself as, unlike Rachel, I’d never encountered the phrase before, so my > initial response was simply to work out what it meant. Not what Sean meant > by it, but simply on the most basic level what it would be taken to mean. > The meaning is anything but transparent to a non-Irish speaker. > > R. > > ------------------------------ > > > *From:* Alison Croggon <[log in to unmask]> > *Sent:* Wednesday, October 08, 2014 8:41 AM > *To:* [log in to unmask] > *Subject:* Re: On my return here > > No, the quarrel is merely with the unthinking use of sexist language on > a poetry list almost exclusively participated in by men ie there may be a > connection between these two things. This example was merely illustrative. > But aargh what am I doing.... > > Thanks Rachel. And also thanks Jaime, I shall read your essay when I get > some spare thoughtful time. I have scanned it and it looks fascinating. > > In haste and impatience... > > Sent from my iPhone > > On 8 Oct 2014, at 6:31 pm, Robin Hamilton <[log in to unmask]> > wrote: > > Rachel, I think you’re shooting the messenger. The phrase, before > Sean used it, didn’t mean anything to me – I’m not from Southern Ireland, > and hadn’t encountered it. I initially checked it out in the wake of > David’s citation from urbandictionary, since I was a bit sceptical of that > as a source of information. > > It seems to be the case, and please correct me if I’m wrong here, that the > term “cute hoor” has a wide currency in Ireland. Actually, from the range > of citations kicked up in various places in google, particularly from the > biographies of Irish politicians, it could perhaps be narrowed down to > Southern Ireland. Is it current in Northern Ireland? It certainly isn’t, > as far as I know, current in England or Scotland. > > Your quarrel seems to be with what you perceive as an underlying > misogynist bias in the phrase itself, but that’s a quarrel you should take > up with urban Southern Irish colloquial speech rather than with me. > > Thinking that the nearest English equivalent might be “whorish > politicians”, I put that into a google search, and was queried by google, > "Did you mean: irish politicians". > > Ouch! > > Robin > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* rachel warriner <[log in to unmask]> > *Sent:* Wednesday, October 08, 2014 7:54 AM > *To:* [log in to unmask] > *Subject:* Re: On my return here > > > It seems like a pretty straightforward example of insulting men by calling > them words traditionally flung at women ... and strange as it may sound to > English and American ears, here in Cork it's still ringing through as > boring aul misogyny. Again I repeat, just because a word means one thing to > you doesn't mean it doesn't have other implications. Again I repeat, this > is a list for poets and I can't believe that needs saying twice. The > question was only just asked why no one engages with the list, someone > kindly told ye. Perhaps ye should listen! > On 8 Oct 2014 06:23, "Robin Hamilton" <[log in to unmask]> > wrote: > >> << >> >> *From:* Alison Croggon <[log in to unmask]> >> >> Since we're into googling, from wikipedia; >> Etymology >> >> From *cute <http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/cute>* (“sly/clever, shrewd or >> perceptive”) and *whore <http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/whore>* >> >> >> >> >> Actually, Alison, your citation is from Wiktionary, not Wikipedia itself, >> and you’ve truncated the entry. >> >> http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/cute_hoor >> >> The term doesn’t crop up in most of the current slang dictionaries, and I >> can’t lay my hands on my copy of the dictionary of Hiberno-English, but a >> little effort on google shows that it’s pretty widespread as an Irish >> usage, predominantly in the context of politics, invariably transcribed as >> “hoor” rather than “whore”, and almost invariably applied to males. >> >> // >> The Irish have hoors. This is a really odd one - to English and American >> ears, anyway. Though obviously a local pronunciation of the English >> \vhore\ the Irish hoor is not only ambisexual in meaning but generally has >> nothing to do with prostitution or even sexuality. A 'cute hoor' is >> someone >> who does whatever they think they can get away with. This cute harks back >> to its origins. It's a shortening of 'acute' and meant sharp-witted - >> still there >> in an American parent telling their child not to get cute with them. The >> epitome of the cute hoor was Charlie Haughey. the three-times Taioscach >> who embezzled his Fianna Fail party to the tune of a private island, a >> mansion, a stable of racehorses and a yacht. He also stole money collected >> for his friend's liver transplant. Yet he was still given a state funeral >> and >> admired for his cheek. This is known as the cute hoor syndrome. At the >> 1998 National Crime Forum, a sociologist claimed that this syndrome >> might explain why no-one had been imprisoned for tax fraud in Ireland >> since 1945. >> >> \\ >> >> >> http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=xSErq0ssG74C&pg=PT147&lpg=PT147&dq=cute+hoor+syndrome&source=bl&ots=DkdIyhriPF&sig=yN3Tvl6XPOPSl8gPjNsxepKXME0&hl=en&sa=X&ei=H8E0VPXoD62S7AaRwICADQ&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false >> >> There’s this: >> >> * Cork property developer shocked at 'cute hoor' speech, >> defamation case hears* >> >> A (male) Irish property developer objected to being characterised as a >> cute hoor by a (female) Fine Gael politician. >> >> >> http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/cork-property-developer-shocked-at-cute-hoor-speech-defamation-case-hears-574093.html >> >> Go figure. >> >> Not to denigrate the Irish, but apparently we don’t have whorish >> politicians this side of the Irish Sea. googling <cute hoor irish >> politician> produces 360,000 results. >> >> Curiously enough, which may interest Alison, there’s an Australian >> connection too. _Green’s Dictionary of Slang_, while not noting the phrase >> “cute hoor”, or the Irish connection, has an marginally-relevant entry: >> >> “HOOER n. (also HOOR, HUER) [SE WHORE] 1 (AUS.) a term >> of general disapproval, applied to either sex.” >> >> Robin >> ------------------------------ >> >> On Wed, Oct 8, 2014 at 12:43 PM, David Latane < >> [log in to unmask]> wrote: >> >>> cute hoor <http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=cute%20hoor> >>> >>> [image: image] >>> <http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=cute%20hoor> >>> >>> cute hoor >>> <http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=cute%20hoor> >>> phrase used in Ireland to describe a slippery customer, a rogue, a >>> charlatan, someone who seems upstanding or innocent and mild but who never >>> misse... >>> View on www.urbandictionary... >>> <http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=cute%20hoor> >>> Preview by Yahoo >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> *From:* JIMMY CUMMINS <[log in to unmask]> >>> >>> >>> Sean just because a phrase is "irish" or "old" or mostly directed at >>> men doesn't preclude it from being sexist. there is no assumptions being >>> made here and it is far from a case of it being over the PG mark. it is >>> just a case of you using language that is no longer acceptable in circles >>> where people actually care about the language used. >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> ___________________________________________ >> >> Alison Croggon >> ABC Arts Online Performance Critic >> Home page: http://www.alisoncroggon.com >> >> > The University of Dundee is a registered Scottish Charity, No: SC015096 >