To contribute I simply responded to Peter Riley's question regarding the health of this listing as it has been asleep for a long span of time. Healthy robust debate is not to all tastes here but it does add vitality rather it being as dull as watching paint dry. Indeed I did mention early on I feared I was the sour grapes guy or a man with a grump.
Nobody must deny or try to muzzle anyone for any reason or assume their status or position or wealth puts them above the ordinary list member. Freedom of expression is under threat on all levels and my impression is that the younger generation on both islands are ultra conservative. They must be tackled and confronted by those of us who value freedom. All the gains made since the sixties must be defended at all costs or we will soon wake up in a fascist state on both sides of The Irish Sea.
Those who enjoy a quiet life in their old age may feel this is dramatic but I have not seen in my lifetime such a mood of reaction or total selfishness in society. This warning goes across the political range with not just UKIP or the Conservatives in mind. The fact very few younger list members say anything on here speaks volumes.
The minnows and pleb view of writers like myself who are non academic or with no vast list of publications is not grudge talk but harsh reality. My error was not being as cute a hoor as others in Ireland who kept their eyes on the prize without any effort at helping others in any serious way. "It is a lesson too late for the learning" and having walked free from an eight car crash on the M5 yesterday sore but in one piece I see it as a sober lesson on how one must not evade anything or waste time. Most of the time I realise I am talking here to the converted but I hope some understand my pleas for equality.
-----Original Message-----
From: [log in to unmask]
To: BRITISH-IRISH-POETS
Sent: Tue, 7 Oct 2014 14:56
Subject: Re: Heaney and Larkin
Over the years since I first became aware of your work John I had and have respect for you and in more recent times expressed my support for your edition of Dylan Thomas's work on Facebook. I do not have a copy of ''Colonies Of Belief'' to hand to look at it in an overall typographical way to examine what other errors may have occurred for other writers included in it. My understanding was that a proofread was done by a Dublin writer with Andrew Duncan actually printing the book in England. In an online quote Andrew claimed he was ''depressed'' at that time which made the book less focused than it was and he offered me a free copy to replace the copy lost in the 2006 fire in an e mail exchange. The idea of an errata slip never hit me at that time nor was it suggested by Maurice who in his introduction mentioned the grid format of 5 X 5 line stanzas which was quite specific. The published format went away beyond five per page which makes for a cluttered presentation. Paul Green's edition with an introduction by Peter O' Leary and an Afterword by myself was published in 2009 by Spectacular Diseases is a correct presentation of the text. The gap between publications being ten years and I now regret I did not mention the 1999 publication in the Afterword.On the Irish golden circle John you know as well as I know who and what is involved and how it all came about and to fully explain I have alluded to before on this list without going into detail. People protect their own interests in the literary field and at the end of the day their careers come before anything else. They have now for decades claimed the ''Irish Modernist'' market as their preserve and exclusion is exclusion but it is all about literary gigs publishing one another and obtaining grants. They do not have to bother contributing anything to this list as their pots of gold are safe and both of the Irish states Arts Council grant bodies look after them. Some of us are more equal than others re the jackpots available and the poor indeed are always with us but they are to blame themselves in a Katie Hopkins way.Ok John. On the overall publication I offer an apology to you as I know you are a decent guy who never on purpose would undermine anyone for any reason. My issues are not with you and you did not edit the poetry section of ''Colonies Of Belief'' or undertake the proofread prior to Andrew Duncan publishing the book. The corrections at short notice show your perceptions and indeed interest. I value your own writing and regret you do not promote it more but you are a modest man. I look forward to meeting you again at some stage and do keep in touch.CheersSean-----Original Message-----
From: GOODBY JOHN <[log in to unmask]>
To: BRITISH-IRISH-POETS <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Tue, 7 Oct 2014 16:21
Subject: Re: Heaney and Larkin
I remember our cordial chat Sean, and I've just compared the 2 texts.
You're right - there are 9 misprints. But the poem is 125 lines long, they are fairly minor ones, and none of them mangle the sense badly. It's a powerful and impressive piece and survives the slip-ups. I'm sorry they're there, of course - although I don't know whether they went in at the Dublin end when Maurice edited the poetry section, or when Andrew put the two parts of the issue together - but I wouldn't say they make it 'botched'.
If something similar happened to a similar-length poem of my own, yes, I'd be irritated and ask for an errata slip / jiscmail list correction to go out maybe, but I wouldn't damn the entire publication. Certainly not a pioneering one put together by people who clearly had a passion for the material they were dealing with, and had sought me out as a contributor to a special issue, but had then made a few inadvertent errors of transcription -this is small press publishing back in 1998, after all (fyi there were no other complaints from other poets or critical contributors, although I'm sure there are other glitches).
For those who want to make their own errata slip for Sean's poem 'Free Range' as it appeared in Colonies of Belief, here it is:
'offer' for 'offering'Question marks added after 'telepathic', 'trustworthy' and 'Brautigan's''notice' for 'I note' (basic sense unchanged)'cover' for 'covering''vets' for 'vet.' (the sense of 'veteran' is clear in both)'confessional' for 'confessions''join' for 'take'
As for 'Irish "Modernist" golden circle', I don't understand either the phrase, especially 'golden', or the (ironic?) quote marks around 'Modernist'. Whatever it means, neither Andrew Duncan nor me could be said to belong to it, and I suspect that Maurice and the other poets included in the issue wouldn't think they did either. Or 'plebs' and 'minnows' too - again, these seem to have more to do with you and some unspecified grievances I don't understand.
So: I don't know much about 'man of honour' in the abstract sense you use it, but I do know something about standing by co-workers who did a decent job and gave of their best, as Andrew and Maurice undoubtedly did, under the usual rushed and pressured circumstances. I remain proud of what we achieved, even though it has some flaws. And I stand by the issue, and my belief - 'cordial' though I want this exchange to remain - that you should retract your sweeping and cavalier dismissal of it.John
On 7 October 2014 14:58, Sean Carey <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
After a careful look at "Free Range" you will see how botched it was and indeed in our chat prior to the Hay reading we discussed in a cordial way what happened.
What's sauce for the goose etc. must apply in an even way to the plebs and minnows as it does to the Irish "Modernist" golden circle?
-----Original Message-----
From: [log in to unmask]
To: BRITISH-IRISH-POETS
Sent: Tue, 7 Oct 2014 10:12
Subject: Re: Heaney and Larkin
Just to clarify further: it was Maurice and I who edited it, Andrew who typed it up and proofed it. I stand by the work all three of us did - it's a pioneering anthology-cum-critical introduction to Irish poetic modernism. And I'm appalled that Sean can trash it in such a stupid, careless manner.
J
On 7 October 2014 13:58, GOODBY JOHN <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
It's not a 'proofreading debacle'. I deeply resent that comment and I would like Sean to withdraw it and apologise. It has a few slight glitches and the footnotes for all the essays are in a single batch at the end, but it's otherwise perfectly comprehensible.
Just to remind Sean: it contains decent essays by Anne Fogarty, Lee Jenkins, Harry Gilonis, Nicholas Johnson, J.C.C. Mays and David Annwn. It reproduces the complete text of Denis Devlin's masteries 'Memoirs of a Turcoman Diplomat'. It has a good anthology of poems by Randolph Healy, Catherine Walsh, Billy Mills, Judy Kravis, David Lloyd and Sean himself (don't recall you complaining at the time, Sean), edited by Maurice Scully. How would we be better off if they were 'pulped'? How do they represent a 'debacle'?
Please, all those of you who actually thought it was a useful pioneering venture, or contributed to it, put Sean right on this.
John
On 7 October 2014 12:31, Sean Carey <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
This is a valuable contribution David and explains a lot on the issues under discussion. The differences between writers are rarely addressed on here and on literary forums often kept under the carpet often for fear of litigation. Heaney found Ted Hughes more congenial than most writers in Britain but he was on good terms with others such as Peter Porter. Indeed Heaney gave the eulogy for Ted Hughes at his funeral in Exeter and Robert Lowell died suddenly in 1977 after a holiday visit to the Heaney home in County Wicklow not long after arriving back in the U.S.A. Clearly Larkin and Heaney had differences as they were totally different personalities with contrasting writing styles and views.
The anthology point on the Georgian poets is indeed apt and I regret its virtual demise or maybe it is just outdated? Anthologies at their best provide us with a real insight into a particular genre and we must not allow Keith Tuma to hog the "Modernist" anthology form or Andrew Duncan dominate the quick mode glossary into "avant garde" writers on these islands. They have both done work of value but are too prone to be guided into all too familar pastures all of us have witnessed before. A new balanced Irish anthology is long overdue to open up what has been going on since the fifties and I would love to see someone like yourself David undertake this task?
A previous effort edited by John Goodby and Maurice Scully in1999 turned into a proofreading debacle titled "Colonies Of Belief" and whoever did the proofread for Andrew Duncan's Angel Exhaust defied belief! Andrew claimed "being depressed" but he created even more depression by not pulping the book which is still on sale from commercial outlets online.
On Jamie's contributions I admire his loyalty to Seamus Heaney and Paul Muldoon but surely after a ten month hiatus we should simply agree to differ? I am pleased Jamie rates Fiacc and would like to know what other Irish poets he rates and his rating of John Jordan Ewart Milne and Eugene Watters?
from AOL Mobile Mail
-----Original Message-----
From: David Bircumshaw <[log in to unmask]>
To: BRITISH-IRISH-POETS <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Tue, Oct 7, 2014 05:56 AM
Subject: Heaney and Larkin
dbwaiting to jumped onPerhaps I could not so respectfully suggest that, rather than 'neo-Movement' and the like, the term 'neo-Georgian' be employed, as did Spender in his c.1960 attack on Larkin, Hughes etc.I don't think it entirely satisfactory, nor do I entirely condemn the 'Georgian' poets, who were really a series of anthologies anyway, rather than a literary movement, but the key element of critque is also I recall right also summed up by Spender: 'cultivating their own back gardens' - in literary terms that is.Larkin himself made some not entirely flattering comments on Heaney, a 'Gombeen man' being the most notorious, but most pointedly suggested that 'Heaney &co.' represented a retreat to the 'literary'. I think he says in a letter that they 'where we were when we first started out'.At the risk of sounding controversial where no controversy exists, i would respectfully suggest there was a literary relationship between Heaney's practice and Larkin's. Heaney wrote, not without reservations, about Larkin several times in prose, but most memorably in 'The Journey Back', the opening poem of 'Seeing Things', which though deftly written also conjures the strange comparison of Larkin to Dante, representing as it does a supernal vision of Larkin's shade a la Dante's appearance to firewarden TSE.
I also recall US American critics applying it some of their own post 1960s generation, though at this distance in time I'm not sure of whom.
Yours
--
David Joseph Bircumshaw
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