Just to be clear: "sexist" is not "a term of abuse". It is a description of
an abusive behaviour, just as racism is. If it is "old", whatever that
means, it's because the behaviour is "old". But, quite seriously, I really
can't be bothered arguing about this with a bunch of men who don't care.
On Wed, Oct 8, 2014 at 9:14 AM, Sean Carey <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> An Irish terms that applies to males mostly Alice and not in anyway meant
> to be "sexist" which by now is a very old term of abuse in itself. Alison
> in her time questioned my sanity in an indirect way and I took it on the
> chin. Indeed I saw the humour in it on a subject not that different to the
> current topics.
>
> To assume I in some way jumped over the PG mark or watershed is a non
> runner. I am glad you are not an ultra conservative and am pleased you are
> contributing. Long may you continue to do so!
>
> Sean
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [log in to unmask]
> To: BRITISH-IRISH-POETS
> Sent: Tue, 7 Oct 2014 19:01
> Subject: Re: On my return here
>
>
> I would agree with Alison and would add that on a list apparently
> concerned with dying out, the unchecked use of sexist language ("as cute
> a hoor") is appalling and unnecessary. It excludes by implication the
> women who could robustly and pleasantly contribute. I would ask that
> those writing emails remember that this list has a wide reach and that
> includes people who are unprepared to put up with that kind of grotesque
> idiocy.
>
>
> -I would add, as a member of the 'younger generation', and staunchly non
> 'conservative', that the email below was doubly alienating. I am on a
> number of lists and none is as aggressive as this - and crucially, the
> debate there is polite and the language appropriate.
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* British & Irish poets <[log in to unmask]> on
> behalf of Alison Croggon <[log in to unmask]>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 07, 2014 10:36 PM
> *To:* [log in to unmask]
> *Subject:* Re: On my return here
>
> I wonder if anyone worries that no women contribute to the list? It's
> perfectly obvious why, btw, since clearly it doesn't bother anyone; but
> it's as much a gap as the "younger generation" who are, as you say, so
> "conservative".
>
> On Wed, Oct 8, 2014 at 8:27 AM, Sean Carey <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> To contribute I simply responded to Peter Riley's question regarding the
> health of this listing as it has been asleep for a long span of time.
> Healthy robust debate is not to all tastes here but it does add vitality
> rather it being as dull as watching paint dry. Indeed I did mention early
> on I feared I was the sour grapes guy or a man with a grump.
>
> Nobody must deny or try to muzzle anyone for any reason or assume their
> status or position or wealth puts them above the ordinary list member.
> Freedom of expression is under threat on all levels and my impression is
> that the younger generation on both islands are ultra conservative. They
> must be tackled and confronted by those of us who value freedom. All the
> gains made since the sixties must be defended at all costs or we will soon
> wake up in a fascist state on both sides of The Irish Sea.
>
> Those who enjoy a quiet life in their old age may feel this is dramatic
> but I have not seen in my lifetime such a mood of reaction or total
> selfishness in society. This warning goes across the political range with
> not just UKIP or the Conservatives in mind. The fact very few younger list
> members say anything on here speaks volumes.
>
> The minnows and pleb view of writers like myself who are non academic or
> with no vast list of publications is not grudge talk but harsh reality. My
> error was not being as cute a hoor as others in Ireland who kept their eyes
> on the prize without any effort at helping others in any serious way. "It
> is a lesson too late for the learning" and having walked free from an eight
> car crash on the M5 yesterday sore but in one piece I see it as a sober
> lesson on how one must not evade anything or waste time. Most of the time I
> realise I am talking here to the converted but I hope some understand my
> pleas for equality.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [log in to unmask]
> To: BRITISH-IRISH-POETS
> Sent: Tue, 7 Oct 2014 14:56
> Subject: Re: Heaney and Larkin
>
> Over the years since I first became aware of your work John I had and
> have respect for you and in more recent times expressed my support for your
> edition of Dylan Thomas's work on Facebook. I do not have a copy of
> ''Colonies Of Belief'' to hand to look at it in an overall typographical
> way to examine what other errors may have occurred for other writers
> included in it. My understanding was that a proofread was done by a Dublin
> writer with Andrew Duncan actually printing the book in England. In an
> online quote Andrew claimed he was ''depressed'' at that time which made
> the book less focused than it was and he offered me a free copy to replace
> the copy lost in the 2006 fire in an e mail exchange. The idea of an errata
> slip never hit me at that time nor was it suggested by Maurice who in his
> introduction mentioned the grid format of 5 X 5 line stanzas which was
> quite specific. The published format went away beyond five per page which
> makes for a cluttered presentation. Paul Green's edition with an
> introduction by Peter O' Leary and an Afterword by myself was published in
> 2009 by Spectacular Diseases is a correct presentation of the text. The gap
> between publications being ten years and I now regret I did not mention the
> 1999 publication in the Afterword.
>
>
> On the Irish golden circle John you know as well as I know who and what is
> involved and how it all came about and to fully explain I have alluded to
> before on this list without going into detail. People protect their own
> interests in the literary field and at the end of the day their careers
> come before anything else. They have now for decades claimed the ''Irish
> Modernist'' market as their preserve and exclusion is exclusion but it is
> all about literary gigs publishing one another and obtaining grants. They
> do not have to bother contributing anything to this list as their pots of
> gold are safe and both of the Irish states Arts Council grant bodies look
> after them. Some of us are more equal than others re the jackpots available
> and the poor indeed are always with us but they are to blame themselves in
> a Katie Hopkins way.
>
>
> Ok John. On the overall publication I offer an apology to you as I know
> you are a decent guy who never on purpose would undermine anyone for any
> reason. My issues are not with you and you did not edit the poetry section
> of ''Colonies Of Belief'' or undertake the proofread prior to Andrew Duncan
> publishing the book. The corrections at short notice show your perceptions
> and indeed interest. I value your own writing and regret you do not promote
> it more but you are a modest man. I look forward to meeting you again at
> some stage and do keep in touch.
>
> Cheers
>
> Sean
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: GOODBY JOHN <[log in to unmask]>
> To: BRITISH-IRISH-POETS <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Tue, 7 Oct 2014 16:21
> Subject: Re: Heaney and Larkin
>
> I remember our cordial chat Sean, and I've just compared the 2 texts.
>
> You're right - there are 9 misprints. But the poem is 125 lines long,
> they are fairly minor ones, and none of them mangle the sense badly. It's a
> powerful and impressive piece and survives the slip-ups. I'm sorry they're
> there, of course - although I don't know whether they went in at the Dublin
> end when Maurice edited the poetry section, or when Andrew put the two
> parts of the issue together - but I wouldn't say they make it 'botched'.
>
> If something similar happened to a similar-length poem of my own, yes,
> I'd be irritated and ask for an errata slip / jiscmail list correction to
> go out maybe, but I wouldn't damn the entire publication. Certainly not a
> pioneering one put together by people who clearly had a passion for the
> material they were dealing with, and had sought me out as a contributor to
> a special issue, but had then made a few inadvertent errors of
> transcription -this is small press publishing back in 1998, after all (fyi
> there were no other complaints from other poets or critical contributors,
> although I'm sure there are other glitches).
>
> For those who want to make their own errata slip for Sean's poem 'Free
> Range' as it appeared in Colonies of Belief, here it is:
>
> 'offer' for 'offering'
> Question marks added after 'telepathic', 'trustworthy' and 'Brautigan's'
> 'notice' for 'I note' (basic sense unchanged)
> 'cover' for 'covering'
> 'vets' for 'vet.' (the sense of 'veteran' is clear in both)
> 'confessional' for 'confessions'
> 'join' for 'take'
>
> As for 'Irish "Modernist" golden circle', I don't understand either the
> phrase, especially 'golden', or the (ironic?) quote marks around
> 'Modernist'. Whatever it means, neither Andrew Duncan nor me could be said
> to belong to it, and I suspect that Maurice and the other poets included in
> the issue wouldn't think they did either. Or 'plebs' and 'minnows' too -
> again, these seem to have more to do with you and some unspecified
> grievances I don't understand.
>
> So: I don't know much about 'man of honour' in the abstract sense you
> use it, but I do know something about standing by co-workers who did a
> decent job and gave of their best, as Andrew and Maurice undoubtedly did,
> under the usual rushed and pressured circumstances. I remain proud of what
> we achieved, even though it has some flaws. And I stand by the issue, and
> my belief - 'cordial' though I want this exchange to remain - that you
> should retract your sweeping and cavalier dismissal of it.
>
> John
>
>
>
> On 7 October 2014 14:58, Sean Carey <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> After a careful look at "Free Range" you will see how botched it was and
> indeed in our chat prior to the Hay reading we discussed in a cordial way
> what happened.
>
> What's sauce for the goose etc. must apply in an even way to the plebs and
> minnows as it does to the Irish "Modernist" golden circle?
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [log in to unmask]
> To: BRITISH-IRISH-POETS
> Sent: Tue, 7 Oct 2014 10:12
> Subject: Re: Heaney and Larkin
>
> Just to clarify further: it was Maurice and I who edited it, Andrew who
> typed it up and proofed it. I stand by the work all three of us did - it's
> a pioneering anthology-cum-critical introduction to Irish poetic modernism.
> And I'm appalled that Sean can trash it in such a stupid, careless manner.
>
>
> J
>
> On 7 October 2014 13:58, GOODBY JOHN <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> It's not a 'proofreading debacle'. I deeply resent that comment and I
> would like Sean to withdraw it and apologise. It has a few slight glitches
> and the footnotes for all the essays are in a single batch at the end, but
> it's otherwise perfectly comprehensible.
>
> Just to remind Sean: it contains decent essays by Anne Fogarty, Lee
> Jenkins, Harry Gilonis, Nicholas Johnson, J.C.C. Mays and David Annwn. It
> reproduces the complete text of Denis Devlin's masteries 'Memoirs of a
> Turcoman Diplomat'. It has a good anthology of poems by Randolph Healy,
> Catherine Walsh, Billy Mills, Judy Kravis, David Lloyd and Sean himself
> (don't recall you complaining at the time, Sean), edited by Maurice Scully.
> How would we be better off if they were 'pulped'? How do they represent a
> 'debacle'?
>
> Please, all those of you who actually thought it was a useful pioneering
> venture, or contributed to it, put Sean right on this.
>
> John
>
> On 7 October 2014 12:31, Sean Carey <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> This is a valuable contribution David and explains a lot on the issues
> under discussion. The differences between writers are rarely addressed on
> here and on literary forums often kept under the carpet often for fear of
> litigation. Heaney found Ted Hughes more congenial than most writers in
> Britain but he was on good terms with others such as Peter Porter. Indeed
> Heaney gave the eulogy for Ted Hughes at his funeral in Exeter and Robert
> Lowell died suddenly in 1977 after a holiday visit to the Heaney home in
> County Wicklow not long after arriving back in the U.S.A. Clearly Larkin
> and Heaney had differences as they were totally different personalities
> with contrasting writing styles and views.
>
>
> The anthology point on the Georgian poets is indeed apt and I regret its
> virtual demise or maybe it is just outdated? Anthologies at their best
> provide us with a real insight into a particular genre and we must not
> allow Keith Tuma to hog the "Modernist" anthology form or Andrew Duncan
> dominate the quick mode glossary into "avant garde" writers on these
> islands. They have both done work of value but are too prone to be guided
> into all too familar pastures all of us have witnessed before. A new
> balanced Irish anthology is long overdue to open up what has been going on
> since the fifties and I would love to see someone like yourself David
> undertake this task?
>
>
> A previous effort edited by John Goodby and Maurice Scully in1999 turned
> into a proofreading debacle titled "Colonies Of Belief" and whoever did the
> proofread for Andrew Duncan's Angel Exhaust defied belief! Andrew claimed
> "being depressed" but he created even more depression by not pulping the
> book which is still on sale from commercial outlets online.
>
>
>
> On Jamie's contributions I admire his loyalty to Seamus Heaney and Paul
> Muldoon but surely after a ten month hiatus we should simply agree to
> differ? I am pleased Jamie rates Fiacc and would like to know what other
> Irish poets he rates and his rating of John Jordan Ewart Milne and Eugene
> Watters?
>
> from AOL Mobile Mail
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: David Bircumshaw <[log in to unmask]>
> To: BRITISH-IRISH-POETS <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Tue, Oct 7, 2014 05:56 AM
> Subject: Heaney and Larkin
>
>
>
> At the risk of sounding controversial where no controversy exists, i
> would respectfully suggest there was a literary relationship between
> Heaney's practice and Larkin's. Heaney wrote, not without reservations,
> about Larkin several times in prose, but most memorably in 'The Journey
> Back', the opening poem of 'Seeing Things', which though deftly written
> also conjures the strange comparison of Larkin to Dante, representing as it
> does a supernal vision of Larkin's shade a la Dante's appearance to
> firewarden TSE.
> Larkin himself made some not entirely flattering comments on Heaney, a
> 'Gombeen man' being the most notorious, but most pointedly suggested that
> 'Heaney &co.' represented a retreat to the 'literary'. I think he says in a
> letter that they 'where we were when we first started out'.
>
> Perhaps I could not so respectfully suggest that, rather than
> 'neo-Movement' and the like, the term 'neo-Georgian' be employed, as did
> Spender in his c.1960 attack on Larkin, Hughes etc.I don't think it
> entirely satisfactory, nor do I entirely condemn the 'Georgian' poets, who
> were really a series of anthologies anyway, rather than a literary
> movement, but the key element of critque is also I recall right also summed
> up by Spender: 'cultivating their own back gardens' - in literary terms
> that is.
>
> I also recall US American critics applying it some of their own post
> 1960s generation, though at this distance in time I'm not sure of whom.
>
> Yours
>
> waiting to jumped on
>
> db
> --
> David Joseph Bircumshaw
> Website and A Chide's Alphabet
> http://www.staplednapkin.org.uk
> The Animal Subsides http://www.arrowheadpress.co.uk/books/animal.html
> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/david.bircumshaw
> Tumblr: http://zantikus.tumblr.com/
> twitter: http://twitter.com/bucketshave
> blog: http://groggydays.blogspot.com/
> Leicester Poetry Society: http://www.poetryleicester.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> ___________________________________________
>
> Alison Croggon
> ABC Arts Online Performance Critic
> Home page: http://www.alisoncroggon.com
>
>
> The University of Dundee is a registered Scottish Charity, No: SC015096
>
--
___________________________________________
Alison Croggon
ABC Arts Online Performance Critic
Home page: http://www.alisoncroggon.com
