I wonder if anyone worries that no women contribute to the list? It's perfectly obvious why, btw, since clearly it doesn't bother anyone; but it's as much a gap as the "younger generation" who are, as you say, so "conservative". On Wed, Oct 8, 2014 at 8:27 AM, Sean Carey <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > To contribute I simply responded to Peter Riley's question regarding the > health of this listing as it has been asleep for a long span of time. > Healthy robust debate is not to all tastes here but it does add vitality > rather it being as dull as watching paint dry. Indeed I did mention early > on I feared I was the sour grapes guy or a man with a grump. > > Nobody must deny or try to muzzle anyone for any reason or assume their > status or position or wealth puts them above the ordinary list member. > Freedom of expression is under threat on all levels and my impression is > that the younger generation on both islands are ultra conservative. They > must be tackled and confronted by those of us who value freedom. All the > gains made since the sixties must be defended at all costs or we will soon > wake up in a fascist state on both sides of The Irish Sea. > > Those who enjoy a quiet life in their old age may feel this is dramatic > but I have not seen in my lifetime such a mood of reaction or total > selfishness in society. This warning goes across the political range with > not just UKIP or the Conservatives in mind. The fact very few younger list > members say anything on here speaks volumes. > > The minnows and pleb view of writers like myself who are non academic or > with no vast list of publications is not grudge talk but harsh reality. My > error was not being as cute a hoor as others in Ireland who kept their eyes > on the prize without any effort at helping others in any serious way. "It > is a lesson too late for the learning" and having walked free from an eight > car crash on the M5 yesterday sore but in one piece I see it as a sober > lesson on how one must not evade anything or waste time. Most of the time I > realise I am talking here to the converted but I hope some understand my > pleas for equality. > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [log in to unmask] > To: BRITISH-IRISH-POETS > Sent: Tue, 7 Oct 2014 14:56 > Subject: Re: Heaney and Larkin > > Over the years since I first became aware of your work John I had and > have respect for you and in more recent times expressed my support for your > edition of Dylan Thomas's work on Facebook. I do not have a copy of > ''Colonies Of Belief'' to hand to look at it in an overall typographical > way to examine what other errors may have occurred for other writers > included in it. My understanding was that a proofread was done by a Dublin > writer with Andrew Duncan actually printing the book in England. In an > online quote Andrew claimed he was ''depressed'' at that time which made > the book less focused than it was and he offered me a free copy to replace > the copy lost in the 2006 fire in an e mail exchange. The idea of an errata > slip never hit me at that time nor was it suggested by Maurice who in his > introduction mentioned the grid format of 5 X 5 line stanzas which was > quite specific. The published format went away beyond five per page which > makes for a cluttered presentation. Paul Green's edition with an > introduction by Peter O' Leary and an Afterword by myself was published in > 2009 by Spectacular Diseases is a correct presentation of the text. The gap > between publications being ten years and I now regret I did not mention the > 1999 publication in the Afterword. > > > On the Irish golden circle John you know as well as I know who and what is > involved and how it all came about and to fully explain I have alluded to > before on this list without going into detail. People protect their own > interests in the literary field and at the end of the day their careers > come before anything else. They have now for decades claimed the ''Irish > Modernist'' market as their preserve and exclusion is exclusion but it is > all about literary gigs publishing one another and obtaining grants. They > do not have to bother contributing anything to this list as their pots of > gold are safe and both of the Irish states Arts Council grant bodies look > after them. Some of us are more equal than others re the jackpots available > and the poor indeed are always with us but they are to blame themselves in > a Katie Hopkins way. > > > Ok John. On the overall publication I offer an apology to you as I know > you are a decent guy who never on purpose would undermine anyone for any > reason. My issues are not with you and you did not edit the poetry section > of ''Colonies Of Belief'' or undertake the proofread prior to Andrew Duncan > publishing the book. The corrections at short notice show your perceptions > and indeed interest. I value your own writing and regret you do not promote > it more but you are a modest man. I look forward to meeting you again at > some stage and do keep in touch. > > Cheers > > Sean > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: GOODBY JOHN <[log in to unmask]> > To: BRITISH-IRISH-POETS <[log in to unmask]> > Sent: Tue, 7 Oct 2014 16:21 > Subject: Re: Heaney and Larkin > > I remember our cordial chat Sean, and I've just compared the 2 texts. > > You're right - there are 9 misprints. But the poem is 125 lines long, > they are fairly minor ones, and none of them mangle the sense badly. It's a > powerful and impressive piece and survives the slip-ups. I'm sorry they're > there, of course - although I don't know whether they went in at the Dublin > end when Maurice edited the poetry section, or when Andrew put the two > parts of the issue together - but I wouldn't say they make it 'botched'. > > If something similar happened to a similar-length poem of my own, yes, > I'd be irritated and ask for an errata slip / jiscmail list correction to > go out maybe, but I wouldn't damn the entire publication. Certainly not a > pioneering one put together by people who clearly had a passion for the > material they were dealing with, and had sought me out as a contributor to > a special issue, but had then made a few inadvertent errors of > transcription -this is small press publishing back in 1998, after all (fyi > there were no other complaints from other poets or critical contributors, > although I'm sure there are other glitches). > > For those who want to make their own errata slip for Sean's poem 'Free > Range' as it appeared in Colonies of Belief, here it is: > > 'offer' for 'offering' > Question marks added after 'telepathic', 'trustworthy' and 'Brautigan's' > 'notice' for 'I note' (basic sense unchanged) > 'cover' for 'covering' > 'vets' for 'vet.' (the sense of 'veteran' is clear in both) > 'confessional' for 'confessions' > 'join' for 'take' > > As for 'Irish "Modernist" golden circle', I don't understand either the > phrase, especially 'golden', or the (ironic?) quote marks around > 'Modernist'. Whatever it means, neither Andrew Duncan nor me could be said > to belong to it, and I suspect that Maurice and the other poets included in > the issue wouldn't think they did either. Or 'plebs' and 'minnows' too - > again, these seem to have more to do with you and some unspecified > grievances I don't understand. > > So: I don't know much about 'man of honour' in the abstract sense you > use it, but I do know something about standing by co-workers who did a > decent job and gave of their best, as Andrew and Maurice undoubtedly did, > under the usual rushed and pressured circumstances. I remain proud of what > we achieved, even though it has some flaws. And I stand by the issue, and > my belief - 'cordial' though I want this exchange to remain - that you > should retract your sweeping and cavalier dismissal of it. > > John > > > > On 7 October 2014 14:58, Sean Carey <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > > After a careful look at "Free Range" you will see how botched it was and > indeed in our chat prior to the Hay reading we discussed in a cordial way > what happened. > > What's sauce for the goose etc. must apply in an even way to the plebs and > minnows as it does to the Irish "Modernist" golden circle? > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [log in to unmask] > To: BRITISH-IRISH-POETS > Sent: Tue, 7 Oct 2014 10:12 > Subject: Re: Heaney and Larkin > > Just to clarify further: it was Maurice and I who edited it, Andrew who > typed it up and proofed it. I stand by the work all three of us did - it's > a pioneering anthology-cum-critical introduction to Irish poetic modernism. > And I'm appalled that Sean can trash it in such a stupid, careless manner. > > > J > > On 7 October 2014 13:58, GOODBY JOHN <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > > It's not a 'proofreading debacle'. I deeply resent that comment and I > would like Sean to withdraw it and apologise. It has a few slight glitches > and the footnotes for all the essays are in a single batch at the end, but > it's otherwise perfectly comprehensible. > > Just to remind Sean: it contains decent essays by Anne Fogarty, Lee > Jenkins, Harry Gilonis, Nicholas Johnson, J.C.C. Mays and David Annwn. It > reproduces the complete text of Denis Devlin's masteries 'Memoirs of a > Turcoman Diplomat'. It has a good anthology of poems by Randolph Healy, > Catherine Walsh, Billy Mills, Judy Kravis, David Lloyd and Sean himself > (don't recall you complaining at the time, Sean), edited by Maurice Scully. > How would we be better off if they were 'pulped'? How do they represent a > 'debacle'? > > Please, all those of you who actually thought it was a useful pioneering > venture, or contributed to it, put Sean right on this. > > John > > On 7 October 2014 12:31, Sean Carey <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > > This is a valuable contribution David and explains a lot on the issues > under discussion. The differences between writers are rarely addressed on > here and on literary forums often kept under the carpet often for fear of > litigation. Heaney found Ted Hughes more congenial than most writers in > Britain but he was on good terms with others such as Peter Porter. Indeed > Heaney gave the eulogy for Ted Hughes at his funeral in Exeter and Robert > Lowell died suddenly in 1977 after a holiday visit to the Heaney home in > County Wicklow not long after arriving back in the U.S.A. Clearly Larkin > and Heaney had differences as they were totally different personalities > with contrasting writing styles and views. > > > The anthology point on the Georgian poets is indeed apt and I regret its > virtual demise or maybe it is just outdated? Anthologies at their best > provide us with a real insight into a particular genre and we must not > allow Keith Tuma to hog the "Modernist" anthology form or Andrew Duncan > dominate the quick mode glossary into "avant garde" writers on these > islands. They have both done work of value but are too prone to be guided > into all too familar pastures all of us have witnessed before. A new > balanced Irish anthology is long overdue to open up what has been going on > since the fifties and I would love to see someone like yourself David > undertake this task? > > > A previous effort edited by John Goodby and Maurice Scully in1999 turned > into a proofreading debacle titled "Colonies Of Belief" and whoever did the > proofread for Andrew Duncan's Angel Exhaust defied belief! Andrew claimed > "being depressed" but he created even more depression by not pulping the > book which is still on sale from commercial outlets online. > > > > On Jamie's contributions I admire his loyalty to Seamus Heaney and Paul > Muldoon but surely after a ten month hiatus we should simply agree to > differ? I am pleased Jamie rates Fiacc and would like to know what other > Irish poets he rates and his rating of John Jordan Ewart Milne and Eugene > Watters? > > from AOL Mobile Mail > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: David Bircumshaw <[log in to unmask]> > To: BRITISH-IRISH-POETS <[log in to unmask]> > Sent: Tue, Oct 7, 2014 05:56 AM > Subject: Heaney and Larkin > > > > At the risk of sounding controversial where no controversy exists, i > would respectfully suggest there was a literary relationship between > Heaney's practice and Larkin's. Heaney wrote, not without reservations, > about Larkin several times in prose, but most memorably in 'The Journey > Back', the opening poem of 'Seeing Things', which though deftly written > also conjures the strange comparison of Larkin to Dante, representing as it > does a supernal vision of Larkin's shade a la Dante's appearance to > firewarden TSE. > Larkin himself made some not entirely flattering comments on Heaney, a > 'Gombeen man' being the most notorious, but most pointedly suggested that > 'Heaney &co.' represented a retreat to the 'literary'. I think he says in a > letter that they 'where we were when we first started out'. > > Perhaps I could not so respectfully suggest that, rather than > 'neo-Movement' and the like, the term 'neo-Georgian' be employed, as did > Spender in his c.1960 attack on Larkin, Hughes etc.I don't think it > entirely satisfactory, nor do I entirely condemn the 'Georgian' poets, who > were really a series of anthologies anyway, rather than a literary > movement, but the key element of critque is also I recall right also summed > up by Spender: 'cultivating their own back gardens' - in literary terms > that is. > > I also recall US American critics applying it some of their own post > 1960s generation, though at this distance in time I'm not sure of whom. > > Yours > > waiting to jumped on > > db > -- > David Joseph Bircumshaw > Website and A Chide's Alphabet > http://www.staplednapkin.org.uk > The Animal Subsides http://www.arrowheadpress.co.uk/books/animal.html > Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/david.bircumshaw > Tumblr: http://zantikus.tumblr.com/ > twitter: http://twitter.com/bucketshave > blog: http://groggydays.blogspot.com/ > Leicester Poetry Society: http://www.poetryleicester.com > > > > > -- ___________________________________________ Alison Croggon ABC Arts Online Performance Critic Home page: http://www.alisoncroggon.com