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Ha, well I take Andrew’s point, somewhat & generally, but also, rereading, see those final ones as carrying a sharpened stick, & inviting either complete abjection or sudden recognition, & that bifurcation leads both back into the poem as a whole or onwards to whatever…. Doug On Sep 25, 2014, at 5:25 AM, Lawrence Upton <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > Step outside, would you, Andrew. > > I have returned to the poem and tried to read it as you have with regard to > your remarks on the last paragraph. I disagree. > > Understand that I am really glad you think the poem brilliant and that you > loved it. Also I greatly respect your critical faculty. However (he forms > his hands into mental fists perhaps), having some regard for my own > critical faculty, I disagree > > You charge that the final paragraph is > > too declarative > > out of 'mood' with the above > > tidy > > Point One. Too declarative for what or whom? > > & why is it *too declarative? The poem is full of declarative statements:- > > > > Usually all the religious icons have been smashed. > > [...] > > Winter is close: the flat extremities > > of the inhabitants cast low shadows > > [...] > > no one succeeds in communicating anything > > beyond malice. > > [...] > > There is too much salt in the soil for proper crops. > > There is too much sulphur in the air to breathe correctly; > > but a sniggering sort of laughter is permissible. > > [...] > > There is ample evidence that pepper sprays are only mildly carcinogenic > > and are not therefore greatly deleterious to health > > unless the target should be grossly asthmatic. > > [...] > > We must not be scared by the loss of one or two battles. > > [...] > > Everyone should have several of these in their wardrobe. > > [...] > > Everything combines to hinder or delay a new campaign. > > [...] > > The plan was hastily conceived. > > Some of them were self-assured; > > some of them tried to smile and look composed. > > None wanted to fight. None wanted to retreat. None wanted to die. > > They copied each others' identity papers and pretended > > to relationships they did not have. > > [...] > > None were well but most survived and all contained their rage > > until there should be some possibility of retribution. > > [...] > > The photographs do not do justice to this excellent piece. > > [...] > > the guns > > are in position and the population has been gradually led > > into the demoralising temptations of arcades,baths and banquets. > > > > Point Two. > > Regarding the mood, I hope that the above quotes will make it clearer that > the mood of the voice and therefore presumably of the poem as a whole > changes. > > There are mechanical reasons for that, which I have gone into on the list > already, though the evidence is there: different sources for quotations for > a start > > The last paragraph is fairly close to the voice when it is saying > > Cut out the sentimentality. Cut out > > all of it or I'll cut it out of you myself. > > > > but it differs as well. It keeps differing. > > > > In the final paragraph, it's aggression at one remove; and bullshit. > > > > It's - for me - in a box with Cameron's remarks in Iraq in the UN just > now; but I don't doubt you have your own examples. (I doubt I'll have > another opportunity so I'll just mention that he near as damn says "Well we > have to do something", my favourite buffoon expostulation just now.) > > Point Three. > > I dispute that it is a tidy ending. I cannot dispute that it is an ending; > but it doesn't have to be at the end. One draft had it placed after the > long "Cut out the sentimentality" paragraph. As, in yet another draft, the > poem opened with the diamond / axe image. > > (It is of course a somewhat sentimental utterance itself, or one aimed at > arousing sentiment i.e. of that type - made up by me but could be anything > from Oswald Mosley of the Blackshirts to Nigel Farage, leader of UK > Independence Party - unfortunately - all too present.) > > There is little tidiness! It could be the end of a speech; but it might > also be a groundnote for a speech, to be elaborated upon. > > It is less typical of the other paragraphs than many; but I want to stress > the variety. > > I think of the poem as something like a mobile which I either realise in > html or some other computer language in order to effect the mobility, or > leave it in one state. I chose the latter because it is more important to > me to stress the jump-cutting than the mobility. > > > > best > > > > L > > > > > > On 25 September 2014 06:27, Andrew Burke <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > >> Brilliant! I loved it. Somehow I would have left off the last verse - too >> declarative and out of 'mood' with the above. (I am anti tidy endings >> because they invariably colour what has gone before one way or the other - >> but not the reader's way.) >> >> But it's the Hit of the Week, as far as I'm concerned ... >> >> Andrew >> >> On 25 September 2014 02:30, Lawrence Upton <[log in to unmask]> >> wrote: >> >>> Well, as before, I am grateful for such a close reader... I don't have a >>> tv. Haven't had one for over ten years and haven't seen much in 20. >>> Sometimes I may see something on my laptop, but I have the sound turned >>> down - you see a lot you wouldnt see otherwise without the sound! Yes, I >>> get my knowledge of what's going on from the web but more from BBC World >>> Service and Radio 4. Verbal. Still photos. Or when I look out the window >>> and the wind's blowing and moving things. >>> >>> >>> Some of the things in this piece, the events I mean, are made up, >> gestural >>> things, there's a bit where a woman turns her head and her hair moves >>> forwards... One sees that all the time both with friends and intimates >> and >>> people passing in the street >>> >>> >>> The last lines are not quotes for instance. Just made up. I don't doubt >>> someone has said them, but I made them up based on other things people >> have >>> said; but wrote them off the top of my head. Or so I believe. I've been >>> writing this for nearly 20 years! On and off, you know. Those lines were >>> much as they are ten years ago. >>> >>> >>> Some of the writing came, I believe, from an issue of the Cotton Traders >>> catalogue - that or some other clothing catalogue. You can spot that - >>> colours, fabrics etc. I've got a piece I'm performing with Benedict >> Taylor, >>> next month, my voice and his viola, where counting comes in and out of >> the >>> text, but such short outtakes from such a long list of numbers that it >> may >>> seem random. >>> >>> >>> May be random. >>> >>> >>> I'd like to consider the possibility that the voice changes. Can't say >>> how. Can't say more or less anything. To try to explain I'd like to go >> back >>> to that idea of editing film, cutting one section against another. >>> >>> >>> Obviously (?) it's not another Dziga Vertov idea - I think I referred to >>> him before. But important as he is to me, there's no point in just doing >>> the same thing again and again; but it's in that territory. What you can >>> achieve by cutting a text as if it were audio tape. >>> >>> >>> Once that idea is there one doesn't an original continuity to cut. >>> >>> >>> Originally the piece was called Montage. Then I thought it ought to be >>> Conceptual Montage. Then I thought that is not the subject. What's the >>> subject? >>> >>> >>> Laughter. >>> >>> >>> Maybe I'll stop now. I don't know if any of that is any use. I didn't >>> really think about it till you asked. Or rather I may have had a >> different >>> explanation on the tip of my notional tongue. Ive just responded with >> this >>> as if I'm chatting >>> >>> >>> thanks so much >>> >>> >>> best >>> >>> >>> L >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On 24 September 2014 16:57, Doug Barbour <[log in to unmask]> wrote: >>> >>>> Phew, Lawrence. >>>> >>>> I began reading & wasnt sure ow to respond. It seemed, that early part, >>> so >>>> distanced & cool, not partaking of any of the many things/events >>> described. >>>> But it builds, & that voice of no one while mostly staying firm in its >>>> declining any real interest does get involved,& so the build up, the >>>> accumulation of images (mostly from TV or the web?) savages the reader, >>>> despite or almost because of that refusal to emote, or so it felt to >>> me... >>>> >>>> Doug >>>> On Sep 24, 2014, at 6:25 AM, Lawrence Upton <[log in to unmask]> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> a square of denim, squareness imposed >>>>> >>>>> by the photograph containing its image, >>>>> >>>>> buttons done up; head level, tapering into >>>>> >>>>> a kind of wedge which one might call the nose; >>>>> >>>>> all's quiet, the houses smoking, hills deserted >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> the virgin has sumptuous hair, the child god set aside, >>>>> >>>>> her hands clasped together loosely in an ill-fitting jumper. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Usually all the religious icons have been smashed. >>>>> >>>>> He clenches his fist, but does not look at anyone. >>>>> >>>>> The sleeping bag slips slowly off the bed, half unzipped, flaps >>>>> >>>>> folded back, turned down like lapels; >>>>> >>>>> or skin and flesh in a bungled operation; >>>>> >>>>> a joke gorilla breaks through the forest, >>>>> >>>>> pretending to be the god of war, >>>>> >>>>> but no one believes in it; >>>>> >>>>> a young girl scratches her head, >>>>> >>>>> a sign of sophisticated bewilderment >>>>> >>>>> because she is smiling >>>>> >>>>> and does not seem to be at all afraid. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Winter is close: the flat extremities >>>>> >>>>> of the inhabitants cast low shadows >>>>> >>>>> and do not raise themselves above the artificial >>>>> >>>>> darkness coming in off the sea; all growl >>>>> >>>>> at each other and attempt to speak, >>>>> >>>>> but no one succeeds in communicating anything >>>>> >>>>> beyond malice. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Two headless corpses have been laid, face up, >>>>> >>>>> upon each other; hands which slapped together >>>>> >>>>> in a childish game; one man's shirt is glistening >>>>> >>>>> with blood; she looks up at him from the warm floor; >>>>> >>>>> firelight reflects off a bright cheek; >>>>> >>>>> she is smiling; she is welcoming; he hesitates >>>>> >>>>> and then he speaks. She does not listen. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> The steps of the pyramid rise towards midday sun. >>>>> >>>>> A rotten cow's head feeds flies. It is the autumn. >>>>> >>>>> The people have no hope of returning to their homes; >>>>> >>>>> but, perhaps, if they can stop laughing, there is still something >>>>> >>>>> to be done. There shall be no escape, but there is a chance >>>>> >>>>> that some sense of community may be faked in these circumstances, >>>>> >>>>> despite all. They gain nothing by submission, >>>>> >>>>> except heavier burdens. Whether their masters quarrel >>>>> >>>>> with each other or agree, their bondage is equally ruinous. >>>>> >>>>> There is too much salt in the soil for proper crops. >>>>> >>>>> There is too much sulphur in the air to breathe correctly; >>>>> >>>>> but a sniggering sort of laughter is permissible. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Headless corpses descend the escalator. >>>>> >>>>> An attendant calls out the range for the buyers to hear: >>>>> >>>>> green over blue, blue over blue, blue denim. Squared off blues >>>>> >>>>> in curving shapes. Our heavyweight stone-washed classic >>>>> >>>>> is a real classic. Nothing is any longer safe from their greed and >> lust >>>>> >>>>> yet what a mere handful the invaders are. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> She adopts the stance of a man and leans upon his shoulder. >>>>> >>>>> He affects not to see her. He does not reject the advance. >>>>> >>>>> He puts on his glasses, throws his jacket backwards >>>>> >>>>> over the other shoulder, and looks into the middle distance >>>>> >>>>> with smug assurance: blue denim, blue over blue, ecru, black. >>>>> >>>>> There are two styles for men and one for ladies. >>>>> >>>>> Blue denim, blue over blue, green over blue, ecru and black. >>>>> >>>>> Her majesty's equerry takes over the microphone. Looks like >>>>> >>>>> an elongated diamond or a double-headed axe. Bottle. Navy. >>>>> >>>>> Raspberry. White. Cut from a generously-sized unisex block. >>>>> >>>>> Can be worn on its own or underneath a jacket, giving a smart >>>>> >>>>> but casual look. Style reference Alan. He is on his own. >>>>> >>>>> The sky has darkened. Leggings are made from our soft quality cotton. >>>>> >>>>> There is ample evidence that pepper sprays are only mildly >> carcinogenic >>>>> >>>>> and are not therefore greatly deleterious to health >>>>> >>>>> unless the target should be grossly asthmatic. Camel; khaki; >>>>> >>>>> ecru; taupe. Style reference Stan, who has nearly thirty years with >> the >>>>> force. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> We must not be scared by the loss of one or two battles. >>>>> >>>>> Wear your best working clothes, put your hand behind your head >>>>> >>>>> and stretch and laugh. Ankle length. Black, navy, grey marl, ecru. >>>>> >>>>> Everyone should have several of these in their wardrobe. >>>>> >>>>> He pulls a brick from the wall and hurls it towards the enemy; >>>>> >>>>> but they laugh as they come forward. They have water-cannon; >>>>> >>>>> they have rockets; they have curved sticks set with broken glass; >>>>> >>>>> they have the newspapers behind them and bright lights to dazzle. >>>>> >>>>> One size fits all. The same paralysis in the face of the foe; >>>>> >>>>> the same insubordination towards that which had been agreed. >>>>> >>>>> She, however, wore his boots and wore them to great effect, >>>>> >>>>> one leg curled around her, one leg cocked, elbow on it at the knee, >>>>> >>>>> the hand of the other arm and hand sub-system clutching >>>>> >>>>> the ankle of the leg curled round her. She had full lips >>>>> >>>>> and slightly tousled hair; her smile suggested honour and dignity >>>>> >>>>> but stopped short of bloodshed. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> The kids came out of the woods after a hard struggle: >>>>> >>>>> bottle, red, navy, white, birch grey. They were made >>>>> >>>>> from the same heavy fabric as their parents, >>>>> >>>>> the summer now far spent, and they were watching >>>>> >>>>> the points where danger threatens. Bottle; black; navy; birch grey. >>>>> >>>>> Everything combines to hinder or delay a new campaign. Bottles, >>>>> >>>>> broken in fights or by carelessness, it hardly matters. Birch grey, >>>>> >>>>> alder, oak and ash. White where the fires burned the fiercest. >>>>> >>>>> Red of your blood -- >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Cut out the sentimentality. Cut out >>>>> >>>>> all of it or I'll cut it out of you myself. >>>>> >>>>> The plan was hastily conceived. >>>>> >>>>> Some of them were self-assured; >>>>> >>>>> some of them tried to smile and look composed. >>>>> >>>>> None wanted to fight. None wanted to retreat. None wanted to die. >>>>> >>>>> They copied each others' identity papers and pretended >>>>> >>>>> to relationships they did not have. Black, navy, green and red, >>>>> >>>>> Bordeaux and green, style reference Rome. The strong carried the >> weak. >>>>> >>>>> None were well but most survived and all contained their rage >>>>> >>>>> until there should be some possibility of retribution. Navy, dark >> red, >>>>> >>>>> olive, petrol; black, navy, bottle of wine; dark denim, light denim, >>>>> >>>>> they were suddenly upon us, swimming whilst carrying their arms, >>>>> >>>>> their horses under control, the background music synched >>>>> >>>>> to the camera. What could embarrass or defeat a foe who attacked like >>>> that? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> The photographs do not do justice to this excellent piece. >>>>> >>>>> A small roll neck, the head disabled or cut off. >>>>> >>>>> Other features include an open welt. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> She turns her back to the camera, then turns her head to face it. >>>>> >>>>> The hair flounces forward with the movement; the face starts to >> smile. >>>>> >>>>> The hands are wrong; the jumper's shapeless; but the guns >>>>> >>>>> are in position and the population has been gradually led >>>>> >>>>> into the demoralising temptations of arcades,baths and banquets. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> This is an established classic and is equally suitable for men and >>> women. >>>>> >>>>> He stands behind her with the gun in the small of her back. >>>>> >>>>> They smile at the commandant who is baffled and in despair. >>>>> >>>>> Black. Indigo. Black, indigo. And then she gets the joke >>>>> >>>>> and she just can't stop laughing. I'm going to fall off the log, >>>>> >>>>> you bastard, she says. A woman passing with her dog on a leash >>>>> >>>>> tries to look shocked, can't quite make it. Flecks of mud stain >>>>> >>>>> his white shirt. Slowly she takes off the superfluous rain coat >>>>> >>>>> to reveal her jacket, nautical blue, cactus, India ink. >>>>> >>>>> We've chosen this jacket with great care. >>>>> >>>>> Produced from the finest, heavy grain hide, >>>>> >>>>> it is really a substantial garment. It will get better and better >>>>> >>>>> with age whilst keeping out the worst that the English winter >>>>> >>>>> can throw at you, whilst looking incredibly stylish as well. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> When I consider the motives we have for fighting >>>>> >>>>> and the critical positions we are in, I have a strong feeling >>>>> >>>>> that the united front you are showing today will mean >>>>> >>>>> the dawn of liberty for the whole of Britain. >>>>> >>>> >>>> Douglas Barbour >>>> [log in to unmask] >>>> >>>> http://www.ualberta.ca/~dbarbour/ >>>> http://eclecticruckus.wordpress.com/ >>>> >>>> Latest books: >>>> Continuations & Continuations 2 (with Sheila E Murphy) >>>> http://www.uap.ualberta.ca/UAP.asp?LID=41&bookID=962 >>>> Recording Dates >>>> (Rubicon Press) >>>> >>>> If once a man indulges himself in murder, very soon he comes to think >>>> little of robbing; and from robbing he comes next to drinking and >>>> sabbath-breaking, and from that to incivility and procrastination. >>>> >>>> Thomas De Quincey >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Andrew >> http://hispirits.blogspot.com/ >> 'Undercover of Lightness' >> http://walleahpress.com.au/recent-publications.html >> 'Shikibu Shuffle' >> >> http://abovegroundpress.blogspot.com.au/2012/03/new-from-aboveground-press-shikibu.html >> > Douglas Barbour [log in to unmask] Recent publications: (With Sheila E Murphy) Continuations & Continuation 2 (UofAPress). Recording Dates (Rubicon Press). that we are only as we find out we are Charles Olson