medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture

Dear George,
Images of the "bosom of Abraham" begin to disappear not in the late 12th century but in the late 13th century.  See Jerome Baschet, Le sein du pere. Abraham et la paternite dans l'Occident medieval (Paris, 2000)
Cheers,
Jim
PS, does nobody on the list know anything about "dilation"? -- just a gentle reminder :-)

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From: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious culture [[log in to unmask]] on behalf of Gyorgy Gereby [[log in to unmask]]
Sent: August 20, 2014 12:53 PM
To: [log in to unmask]

Subject: Re: [M-R] dilation and Beatific Vision

medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture

Doctissmi,

Do you mind if I offer some additions and corrections to the thread? Indeed, there are two issues at stake. One is the vision of God (btw one might add to Frans' bibliography an important summary of the subject by V. Lossky. The vision of God. tr. A. Moorhouse. St. Vladimir's Seminary Press, 1983; and for source material, Guiral Ot. La vision de Dieu aux multiples formes. ed. Ch. Trottmann. Paris: Vrin, 2002), the other is the time of the vision.

On the vision of God there were different views as early as Gregory the Great, who tacito nomine condemns St. John Chrysostom (or just the standard Greek tradition) which denies the vision of the divine essence for all created beings, including the angels (this view was condemned in Paris in 1241 again). The Greek position, to put it simple is that the Divine Essence remains invisible forever, while the divine presence (in the form of energies) is visible / manifestly present even in this life after the Incarnation and before the Last Judgement. (The issues become clear, or rather become central in the mid-fourteenth century.) In this context in the West Ps-Dionysius, and Eriugena (and "certain Greeks") were credited (by later scholastics especially) with the "Greek" view that the divine essence is presently (in statu viatoris) visible via UNcreated divine "energies." The created intermediaries theory, mentioned by Harm, is that of Aquinas (see e.g. his views on created grace, or on the Light of the Transfiguration), and many others. (Not everybody, though, was of this view, like Johannes von Kastl, De adhaerendo Deo, cca. 1400, as pointed out by G. Podskalsky.) The history of the subject in the West is extremely complex, involving the Victorines, etc. (discussed very well in an unpublished dissertation of my student, Csaba Nemeth) until it took the standard form against which John XXII tried to put forward the Bernardian view.

BTW the recantation of John XXII did not imply the same view as that of Benedict XII in his Benedictus Deus. John XXII made a very shrewd and subtle statement: "[the souls in heaven] vident Deum de communi lege, ac divinam essentiam facie ad faciem in quantum status et conditio compatitur animae separate.” Which implies a wide spectrum of possibilities ...

The other issue is the time of the vision. The West - grosso modo - denied the visible presence of God in this life (a rarely analyzed influence of Augustine), in statu viatoris, and referred the vision to the afterlife, in patria. The question is when? Immediately after the separation of the soul from the body or after the Judgement?  This issue is connected to the state of the soul after the separation. The anima separata might go to judgement immediately (standard scholastic view), or remain in a "middle state" until the last judgement, and receive reward or punishment after Judgement Day (Greek view). The second was the earlier view, but it involved difficulties as to the mode of existence of the dormant souls. On the other hand, the immediate reward of the visio beata rendered the resurrection close to meaningless.

It is indeed a highly interesting question why are the "Bosom of Abraham" depictions disappearing from the Western portals around the 1180s. (Art historian might want to correct me on this, but the tendency is clear towards the end of the twelfth c.) (The Bosom of Abraham was the place assigned to the virtuous souls after the separation and before the last judgement.)

I tried to summarize some of these issues in an article of mine (I apologize for the self-promotion):

Geréby, Gy. “Hidden Themes in Fourteenth-Century Byzantine and Latin Theological Debates: Monarchianism and Crypto-Dyophysitism.” Hinterberger, M. and Schabel, Chr. eds., Greeks, Latins, and Intellectual History 1204-1500. (Leuven-Paris-Walpole, MA: Peeters, 2011), 183-211.  (= Recherches de Théologie et Philosophie médiévales - Bibliotheca 11)

Downloadable at: 

http://www.academia.edu/1905987/HIDDEN_THEMES_IN_FOURTEENTH-CENTURY_BYZANTINE_AND_LATIN_THEOLOGICAL_DEBATES

I hope it helps.

Best,

George

György Geréby CSc (PhD)
associate professor
head, Mediaeval Studies Department
Central European University

Budapest V
Nador u 9
H-1051 Hungary

Phone/fax: + 36.1.3412634
Mobile: +36.30.9969874
Skype: ggereby4

On 20 August 2014 11:02, H.J.M.J. Goris <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture

Dear Meg,

There were two distinct debates.

One was about whether the beatific vision consists in seeing the uncreated divine essence itself or (merely) a created intermediary. The latter view was attributed to certain ‘Greeks’ (notably Pseudo-Dionysius but also to Eriugena) and condemned in 1241 by the University of Paris.

The second debate was about whether the blessed souls enjoy the beatific vision immediately after death (if necessary, after some period in purgatory) or whether they had to wait till the reunion with the resurrected body at the end of times. This debate reached its climax when Pope John XXII defended the latter view in some of his sermons. He recanted just before he died and the former view was officially promulgated by his successor Pope Benedict XII in 1336 in the bull ‘Benedictus Deus’.  

Best, Harm

 

Harm Goris

senior lecturer systematic theology

School of Catholic Theology (Utrecht campus)

Tilburg University, the Netherlands

phone: +31-13-466 3821

Office: Nieuwegracht 65, Utrecht

Postal address: P.O. Box 80101, 3508 TC Utrecht, The Netherlands

 

From: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious culture [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Frans van Liere
Sent: woensdag 20 augustus 2014 4:19
To: [log in to unmask]

Subject: Re: [M-R] dilation and Beatific Vision

 

medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture

Meg, I wrote my Masters thesis on this, ages ago. The most comprehensive studies are by Christian Trottman, but here’s a fuller bibliography:

 

Cappuyns, D.M. “Note sur le Problème de la Vision Béatifique Au IXe Siècle.” Recherches de Théologie Ancienne et Médiévale 1 (1929): 98-107.

 

Commer, Ernst. “Zur Theologie der Visio Beatifica.” Divus Thomas 5 (1918): 288-320.

 

De Vrégille, Bernard. “L’Attente Des Saints d’Après Saint Bernard.” Nouvelle Revue Théologique 70 (1948): 225-44.

 

Douie, Decima L. “John XXII and the Beatific Vision.” Dominican Studies 3 (1950): 154-74.

 

Dykmans, Marc. Les Sermons de Jean XXII sur la Vision Béatifique. Miscellanea Historiae Pontificiae, 34. Roma, 1973.

 

Gil Ribas, J. “Les Catégories Subjacents à la Benedictus Deus.” Revista Catalana de Teología 8 (1983): 113-60, 359-96; 9 (1984): 365-400.

 

Heinzmann, R. “Die Unsterblichkeit der Seele und die Auferstehung Des Leibes.” Beiträge Zur Geschichte und Philosophie Des Mittelalters 40 (1965): 148?

 

Lakner, Franz. “Zur Eschatologie bei Johannes XXII.” Zeitschrift Für Katholische Theologie 72 (1950): 326-32.

 

Maier, Anneliese. Ausgehendes Mittelalter, Gesammelte Aufsätze Zur Geistesgeschichte Des 14. Jahrhunderts. Storia e Letteratura, 138. Roma, 1977.

------. “Schiften, Daten, und Personen Aus dem Visio-Streit Unter Johann XXII.” Archivum Historiae Pontificiae 9 (1971): 280-318?

------. “Eine Unbeachtete Quaestio Aus dem Visio-Streit Unter Johann XXII.” Archivum Franciscanum Historicum 63 (1970): 280-318.

------. “Zu Einigen Disputationen Aud dem Visio-Streit Unter Johann XXII.” Archivum Fratrum Praedicatorum 39 (1969): 97-126.

 

Otto, H. “Zum Streite Um die Visio Beatifica.” Historisches Jahrbuch der Görres-Gesellschaft 50 (1930): 227-32.

 

Trottmann, Christian. “Deux Interprétations Contradictoires de Saint-Bernard: Les Sermones de Jean XXII sur la Vision Béatifique et les Traités Inedits Du Cardinal Jacques Fournier.” Mélanges de l’École Française de Rome, Moyen Age - Temps Modernes 105 (1993): 327-79.

 

------. La Vision Béatifique Des Disputes Scolastiques à Sa Définition par Benoît XII. Bibliothèque Des Écoles Françaises d’Athènes et de Rome, 289. Roma, 1995.

 

Van Liere, Frans. “Armand of Belvézer O.P on Eschatology. An Edition of His ‘Responsiones Ad 19 Articulos’ (1333).” Archivum Fratrum Praedicatorum 62 (1992): 1-134.

 

Van Liere, Frans. “Johannes XXII en het conflict over het moment van de visio beatifica,” Nederlands theologisch tijdschrift 44 (1990): 208-222

 

Weakland, John E. “Pope John XXII and the Beatific Vision Controversy.” Annuale Mediaevale 9 (1968): 76-84.

 

Wetter, F. Die Lehre Benedikts XII Vom Intensivem Wachstum Des Gottesschau. Analecta Gregoriana, 92. Roma, 1958.

 

Wicki, Nicolaus. Die Lehre von der Himmlischen Seligkeit in der Mittelalterlichen Scholastik von Petrus Lombardus Bis Thomas von Aquin. Studia Friburgensia, N.F. 9. Fribourg, 1954.

 

 

 

 

 

Frans van Liere

 

Department of History

Calvin College

1845 Knollcrest Circle, SE

Grand Rapids, MI, 49546

 

From: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious culture [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Cormack, Margaret Jean
Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2014 3:45 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [M-R] dilation and Beatific Vision

 

medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture

Can anyone direct me to literture on this topic? Especially to arguments about who could attain the Beatific Vision, when and how? It is my recollection that in Byzantine theology mystics were supposed to experience the "energy" emanating from God, but not God himself. But that was grad school, a long, long time ago . . .

Meg

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From: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious culture [[log in to unmask]] on behalf of James Bugslag [[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2014 1:41 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [M-R] dilation?

medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture

John XXII appears to have been a late proponent of the concept of "dilation", which for the most part apparently had had its day by the end of the 12th century, but it has to do with the other end of the scale from the Beatific Vision.

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From: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious culture [[log in to unmask]] on behalf of Thomas Izbicki [[log in to unmask]]
Sent: August 18, 2014 11:38 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [M-R] dilation?

medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture

Jim,

This sounds like the opinion which got John XXII into trouble, saying the Beatific Vision would not be enjoyed by the just until the Last Judgment.

Tom

 

 

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From: "James Bugslag" <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Monday, August 18, 2014 12:26:09 PM
Subject: [M-R] dilation?

 

medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture

Dear Colleagues,
I have read a couple of books this summer on medieval images of the Last Judgement and related themes, in the course of which I have run into a concept which has not been explained: in French, it is "dilation" which dictionaries tell me should be translated into English as "dilitation".  It has something to do with the state of souls between death and the Last Judgement, particularly in terms of suffrages.  Could anyone clarify this term for me, or point me in an appropriate direction?
Many thanks,
Jim

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