medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
Those who were following this thread may be interested to know that I could find no incidences of the phrase 'in specie panis' in PL for any writers still alive in 1215, though plenty for 11th and 12th centy. writers (and some earlier) including Lanfranc, Peter Abelard, Gratian, Peter Lombard, Aelred of Rievaulx and Peter of Celle.medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture********************************************************************** To join the list, send the message: subscribe medieval-religion YOUR NAME to: [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, address it to: [log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the message: unsubscribe medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: [log in to unmask] For further information, visit our web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/medieval-religionGary,I went digging in the Patrologia Latina Database, & "sub speciebus" appears in another context in Boethius' commentary on Porphyry (PL 64). Any chance the Latin translations of Aristotle picked up Boethius' terminology & it passed into the theology by that route?This is the only version of the terminology "sub speciebus" relating it to the Eucharist I found in the database:
PL Vol. 217
Innocentius III:Tom IzbickiFrom: "Jaye Procure" <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2014 3:11:59 PM
Subject: Re: [M-R] sub speciebusmedieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and cultureGaryIf it's not too much trouble, could you send me the useful articles as well? Coming from the Catholic tradition, I agree with your analysis. I suspect that looking into Martin Luther's works one would find a preference for "in speciebus" but that is speculation on my part.Thank youJaye Procure********************************************************************** To join the list, send the message: subscribe medieval-religion YOUR NAME to: [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, address it to: [log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the message: unsubscribe medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: [log in to unmask] For further information, visit our web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/medieval-religionOn 29 May 2014 12:46, Gary Macy <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and cultureDear Cate,My educated guess is that the twelfth and early thirteenth century theologians used "in speciebus" and "sub speciebus" interchangably. However with the a greater understanding of Aristotle's metaphysics, they would have preferred "sub speciebus" since accidents (the appearance of bread and wine) marilyn mccord adams point to and adhere in a substance. In the case of the eucharistis presence, however, the appearances of bread and wine point to but do not adhere in the substance of the body and blood of Christ. So, the body and blood are "under" and not "in" the substance present on the altar. The endless discussions of how this is possible continue throughout the Middle Ages and beyond. I recommend the articles by myself and Stephen Lahey in A Companion to the Eucharist in the Middle Ages (Brill, 2012) for a (hopefully) readable account of this development. If you have trouble getting it, I can send scans of those two articles. Offline, I will send a couple of useful articles on the subject.I hope this helps,Gary--On Thu, May 29, 2014 at 5:45 AM, Frank Morgret <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and cultureCate,On 29/05/2014 5:43 AM, Cate Gunn wrote:
Am I right in thinking that ‘sub specie/speciebus’ became the orthodox terminology after 1215 - or did ‘in’ continue to be used? And is this difference significant?Many thanks for any help.
I am not a middlevilist, but have spent the last 50 years seeking to understand the early continental Reformation from 1517 to 1530. Of course the answer to your question is pertinent to my studies. You would do me a great favour by posting any replies not sent to the list to the rest of us? I hope they will be fulsome.
Many, many thanks!
Frank Morgret
********************************************************************** To join the list, send the message: subscribe medieval-religion YOUR NAME to: [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, address it to: [log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the message: unsubscribe medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: [log in to unmask] For further information, visit our web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/medieval-religionGary MacyDirector, Graduate Program in Pastoral Ministries
John Nobili, SJ Chair of Theology
Chair of Religious Studies Department
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