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Hi, Martin, Seriously I asked: > I'd suspect that you believe that you can understand and >know what designing is by reflecting on your thoughts and feelings >while doing design? And, that you can understand what others are doing >while designing by the same method? If you do, then likely maths will seem irrelevant whatever. If you don't then its maybe worth continuing. Best regards, terry -----Original Message----- From: [log in to unmask] [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Salisbury, Martin Sent: Friday, 9 May 2014 10:30 PM To: PhD-Design - This list is for discussion of PhD studies and related research in Design Subject: Re: Why designers need maths Well Terry, we shall never know whether or not I would be impossible to persuade, because it seems that you have decided against presenting evidence and reasoning and in favour of a slanging match. I am quite sure that a better grasp of maths (and of many other things I am relatively ignorant about) would be of great benefit to me, just as I am sure you feel that learning to draw would be helpful to you and your understanding of Art & Design. But the title of this thread that you launched us into is not 'Why Martin Salisbury needs Maths' but 'Why Designers Need Maths'. Again, it seems we shall never know. Have a good weekend, Best wishes, Martin Professor Martin Salisbury Director, The Centre for Children's Book studies Course Leader, MA Children's Book Illustration Cambridge School of Art 0845 196 2351 http://cambridgemashow.com/ http://www.anglia.ac.uk/ruskin/en/home/microsites/ccbs.html The Twelve Dancing Princesses, illustrated by Sheila Robinson- now available from our online store: www.anglia.ac.uk/12dancingprincesses <http://www.anglia.ac.uk/12dancingprincesses> On 09/05/2014 15:12, "Terence Love" <[log in to unmask]> wrote: >Dear Martin, > >I feel you would be impossible to persuade regardless of evidence or >reasoning (or better writing skills!). > >I suspect the differences between us are far deeper than whether some >kinds of maths may be of help for designers to produce better designs. > >For instance I'd suspect that you believe that you can understand and >know what designing is by reflecting on your thoughts and feelings >while doing design? And, that you can understand what others are doing >while designing by the same method? > >You also seem to think that in some magical way designing in technical >realms is totally different to designing in the traditional art and >design fields. > >Perhaps you need more technical understanding to appreciate the >similarities? > >Learning some maths might help? > >Best wishes , >Terry > >--- >Dr Terence Love >PhD(UWA), BA(Hons) Engin. PGCEd, FDRS, AMIMechE, MISI > >Honorary Fellow >IEED, Management School >Lancaster University, Lancaster, UK >ORCID 0000-0002-2436-7566 > >Director, >Love Services Pty Ltd >PO Box 226, Quinns Rocks >Western Australia 6030 >Tel: +61 (0)4 3497 5848 >Fax:+61 (0)8 9305 7629 >[log in to unmask] >-- > > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: [log in to unmask] >[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Salisbury, Martin >Sent: Friday, 9 May 2014 6:40 PM >To: [log in to unmask] >Subject: Why designers need maths > >Dear Terry, > >You addressed your answer to me but, happily, others have jumped in >with useful contributions before I have managed to find time to return. > >Thank you for having a stab at addressing the questions. However, your >'answers' are so muddled and contradictory that I have found them >impossible to unravel and respond to directly. The assertive writing >style makes it difficult to disentangle those parts intended to be >presented as 'fact' >from >those which are purely opinion. You don't appear to differentiate >between them. > >You begin by saying that there are 'three parts to the answer' and then >you list 'three big change factors in professionals' lives.'. It is not >clear whether these are in some way the three parts of the answer you >refer to or are another digression/ red herring. Either way, I still >can't fathom where you are coming from. If, as you suggest in your >subsequent message to Ken, the problem is that you are 'not explaining >things well enough' perhaps, as Eduardo suggests, the best way forward >is to get a computer to write for you. On the other hand, the problem >could be that this is all nonsense. >But >in order to know which, we must await your forthcoming post that will >finally explain and evidence the propositions clearly and unambiguously. > >I would only say that the sense that I am getting is that you >completely misunderstand what 'design' means within the >creative/applied arts. I sense that your perception of Graphic Design >is limited to one of a process of arranging things. I believe that you >are also confusing tools/ process with content. You have once again >painted yourself into a corner by making wild assertions about areas >with which you are not familiar and certainly have no experiential >knowledge of, and are trying retrospectively to justify them. > >You say: >"In visual design fields, human professional design development is >predicated on sensitisation to existing and past designs using a range >of criteria (contrast, balance, gestalt, purpose, rhetoric etc). From >this, humans identify and critique possible new designs. The limit is >only the limit of the number of designs a person can see in their >lifetime and their sensitivity to them. This and the use of emotions >and thinking provides the creative competence of designers." > >You seem here to be saying that what informs a designer is the range of >designs that the designer has seen- with the use of 'emotions and >thinking' >as an afterthought. Try adding to that afterthought 'life experience', >'empathy', 'humour', 'pathos', 'graphic wit'. IDEAS!. The implicit >projection of a personal life story'. Or perhaps you are only referring >to functional information design? I sense that you have gone away and >done some very rudimentary research into these areas of creative >endeavour that you are not too well up on in order to try to find a way >out? > >My colleagues on the Graphic Design programme here once enrolled a >severely autistic student. He received excellent support throughout his >studies and of course made some astonishingly clever things that did >not connect in any way with user/ audience. > >"Remember if computers can learn to produce designs on the basis of >best designs and best design practices of the best designers, it is >going to be increasingly harder to stay ahead of the creative designs >of the computers." > >In relation to graphic design, this one clearly is nonsense. It refers >to a world of endless recycling and imitation, a world of low level, >local print shop design. > >My own students at Masters and PhD level, are very quick to learn that >the computer is a wonderful tool and that the problems only arise when >one expects it to design or think for them. Where this leaves us in >relation to the need to learn Maths, I still have no idea. > >Looking forward to your next post. > >Best wishes, > >Martin > > >Professor Martin Salisbury >Course Leader, MA Children's Book Illustration Director, The Centre for >Children's Book Studies Cambridge School of Art >0845 196 2351 >[log in to unmask] > >http://www.anglia.ac.uk/ruskin/en/home/microsites/ccbs.html > > >-- > > > >World-leading research. The government rated 8 areas of our research >activity as world-leading in the Research Assessment Exercise (RAE) 2008, >they were: Allied Health Professions & Studies; Art & Design; English >Language & Literature; Geography & Environmental Studies; History; >Music; Psychology and Social Work & Social Policy & Administration. > > > >This e-mail and any attachments are intended for the above named > >recipient(s)only and may be privileged. If they have come to you in > >error you must take no action based on them, nor must you copy or show > >them to anyone please reply to this e-mail to highlight the error and > >then immediately delete the e-mail from your system. Any opinions > >expressed are solely those of the author and do not necessarily > >represent the views or opinions of Anglia Ruskin University. > >Although measures have been taken to ensure that this e-mail and >attachments are > >free from any virus we advise that, in keeping with good computing > >practice, the recipient should ensure they are actually virus free. > >Please note that this message has been sent over public networks which > >may not be a 100% secure communications > > > > > > > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------- >PhD-Design mailing list <[log in to unmask]> Discussion of PhD >studies and related research in Design Subscribe or Unsubscribe at >https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/phd-design >----------------------------------------------------------------- > > >----------------------------------------------------------------- >PhD-Design mailing list <[log in to unmask]> Discussion of PhD >studies and related research in Design Subscribe or Unsubscribe at >https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/phd-design >----------------------------------------------------------------- -- World-leading research. The government rated 8 areas of our research activity as world-leading in the Research Assessment Exercise (RAE) 2008, they were: Allied Health Professions & Studies; Art & Design; English Language & Literature; Geography & Environmental Studies; History; Music; Psychology and Social Work & Social Policy & Administration. This e-mail and any attachments are intended for the above named recipient(s)only and may be privileged. If they have come to you in error you must take no action based on them, nor must you copy or show them to anyone please reply to this e-mail to highlight the error and then immediately delete the e-mail from your system. Any opinions expressed are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent the views or opinions of Anglia Ruskin University. Although measures have been taken to ensure that this e-mail and attachments are free from any virus we advise that, in keeping with good computing practice, the recipient should ensure they are actually virus free. Please note that this message has been sent over public networks which may not be a 100% secure communications ----------------------------------------------------------------- PhD-Design mailing list <[log in to unmask]> Discussion of PhD studies and related research in Design Subscribe or Unsubscribe at https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/phd-design ----------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------- PhD-Design mailing list <[log in to unmask]> Discussion of PhD studies and related research in Design Subscribe or Unsubscribe at https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/phd-design -----------------------------------------------------------------