Anyone who cites "trust" or "deception" as a criteria for denying entry to a ritual space to a trans man or woman is pretty much a bigot. They might have made the same argument againt admitting a person of color or an immigrant. Preconceptions and personal bias have no place here. I'd encorage someone who felt "icky"about "creepy deceptive trans people" to take a good hard look at their own motivations and feelings before barring someone who's only crime is that they dont look and act enough like a man/woman to your satisfaction.

Seriously... You are telling me. A human being - that you distrust me based on my gender identity. The issue here is the person who is caught up in distrust, not the trans* person. There is simply no solid moral ground on which to build this argument in support of exclusion.

~M


On Mon, Feb 24, 2014 at 2:01 AM, mandrake <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
Maddie et al

Cheers for that - so long ago since i read that must have mixed it up with something i read at the time -
was checking in the Bod but their edition doesn't have an index so could n't find any reference to sex-change/transexual etc in there or indeed
kate millet's sexual politics - which was other thing i was reading at the time at school .

I'm quite disappointed about the other stuff germain greer has written although realise she is something of a provocature -
and guess it is still an issue for some feminists when someone not born female assumes a leadership role that would once have been
reserved for women. I guess the recent controversy with susanna moore in uk was connected with that.

As to special terms / neologisms - i find them a bit problematic in use -
apart from the more obvious examples - i would still use "he or she" rather than hir etc - which doesn't work for me.
Some of the nitpicking over terminology can sometimes inhibit genuine debate of issues that are tricky -
and may stop people expressing any reservations they may still have -
same with rascism, immigration etc perhaps its better to let people talk rather than branding them x as soon as they open their mouth?

So in paganism i suspect some pagans still find it problematic - having reclaiming the role of the priestess to then have it
occupied by someone who was not born a women etc.

People's understanding of the issue has obviously evolved - how
transexuals may also have been on a difficult struggle to find themselves and be at peace - i think our understanding of how tough it must be,
to be trapped in the wrong body .


India and other ancient cultures do indeed have examples of intermediate sex but this is often still a repressive tolerance - India,
as we know has serious problems vis a vis sexual politics - a sex change maybe give some sort of tolerance but normal gay life is still
criminalised in some states - and this seems to be getting worse -


senebty

Mogg Morgan

On 21/02/2014 22:17, M. S. Spencer wrote:
Sorry Mogg, you are mistaken.

Perhaps you are thinking of *Andrea Dworkin*  who only recently called for

acceptance and inclusion of trans people.

Here is a link detailing Greer's history. Even Caitlin Moran calls her out
often for her ghastly transphobia.

http://fightback.org.nz/2012/03/14/leaflet-germaine-greers-transphobia-a-ghastly-parody-of-womens-liberation/

Greer has been vehementely opposed to respecting transgeder women (and
men!) since those days. She was even protested when visiting New Zealand by
a local queer advocacy group.

Maddie