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Anyone who cites "trust" or "deception" as a criteria for denying entry to a ritual space to a trans man or woman is pretty much a bigot. They might have made the same argument againt admitting a person of color or an immigrant. Preconceptions and personal bias have no place here. I'd encorage someone who felt "icky"about "creepy deceptive trans people" to take a good hard look at their own motivations and feelings before barring someone who's only crime is that they dont look and act enough like a man/woman to your satisfaction. Seriously... You are telling me. A human being - that you distrust me based on my gender identity. The issue here is the person who is caught up in distrust, not the trans* person. There is simply no solid moral ground on which to build this argument in support of exclusion. ~M On Mon, Feb 24, 2014 at 2:01 AM, mandrake <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > Maddie et al > > Cheers for that - so long ago since i read that must have mixed it up with > something i read at the time - > was checking in the Bod but their edition doesn't have an index so could > n't find any reference to sex-change/transexual etc in there or indeed > kate millet's sexual politics - which was other thing i was reading at the > time at school . > > I'm quite disappointed about the other stuff germain greer has written > although realise she is something of a provocature - > and guess it is still an issue for some feminists when someone not born > female assumes a leadership role that would once have been > reserved for women. I guess the recent controversy with susanna moore in > uk was connected with that. > > As to special terms / neologisms - i find them a bit problematic in use - > apart from the more obvious examples - i would still use "he or she" > rather than hir etc - which doesn't work for me. > Some of the nitpicking over terminology can sometimes inhibit genuine > debate of issues that are tricky - > and may stop people expressing any reservations they may still have - > same with rascism, immigration etc perhaps its better to let people talk > rather than branding them x as soon as they open their mouth? > > So in paganism i suspect some pagans still find it problematic - having > reclaiming the role of the priestess to then have it > occupied by someone who was not born a women etc. > > People's understanding of the issue has obviously evolved - how > transexuals may also have been on a difficult struggle to find themselves > and be at peace - i think our understanding of how tough it must be, > to be trapped in the wrong body . > > > India and other ancient cultures do indeed have examples of intermediate > sex but this is often still a repressive tolerance - India, > as we know has serious problems vis a vis sexual politics - a sex change > maybe give some sort of tolerance but normal gay life is still > criminalised in some states - and this seems to be getting worse - > > > senebty > > Mogg Morgan > > On 21/02/2014 22:17, M. S. Spencer wrote: > >> Sorry Mogg, you are mistaken. >> >> Perhaps you are thinking of *Andrea Dworkin* who only recently called for >> >> acceptance and inclusion of trans people. >> >> Here is a link detailing Greer's history. Even Caitlin Moran calls her out >> often for her ghastly transphobia. >> >> http://fightback.org.nz/2012/03/14/leaflet-germaine-greers- >> transphobia-a-ghastly-parody-of-womens-liberation/ >> >> Greer has been vehementely opposed to respecting transgeder women (and >> men!) since those days. She was even protested when visiting New Zealand >> by >> a local queer advocacy group. >> >> Maddie >> >> >>