Hi Norma

if you read my post again, you should find that actually I agree with you, so please don't shout at me. 

 

I wholeheartedly agree that any organisation recruiting an ESOL professional, even one starting a career and without other qualifications than PTLLS, should be on a very significantly higher salary than £10 per hour.    The ask for this post is enormous, the pay should reflect it, and £10 per hour is wholly inadequate.   

I don't know what this organisation is, nor what funding it is drawing on to offer such a low salary for an ESOL professional;  I do note that it requires someone who is prepared to undergo training and qualification - possibly the organisation will pay for this and provide the time? in which case this would be an opportunity for career development - ?

 

I have 8 years experience and am fully qualified.  I'm currently on a notional £23+ per hour, but that's contact time only.  (Yes, it's the bottom end of the scale.  And I'm on zero hours.  Yes, I work for an FE institution.)
 In theory, I work an additional half hour for every hour I teach and that is calculated into my salary.  In practice, I calculate that last week for the 16 hours I taught, I worked an additional 16 hours (absolute minimum).  So I actually got paid £11.50 per hour (maximum).  

 

ALL ESOL teachers work the same kind of hours.  So all of us are chronically underpaid.  In which we are not alone, I would point out - this is true for all FE teaching staff, not just ESOL teachers.
And FE CEOs, not to mention Dept of Education and Skills ministers, are FULLY aware of this fact. It's built into the system and into salaries - the whole thing is an exploitative under the table deal that has to be addressed, as you point out, at a strategic level.  

We as a group, and as members of the Action for ESOL movement and NATECLA, should be pressurising the government in every conceivable way to improve pay structures for FE education, fight moves to de-professionalise us, and pressurise for improved funding for ESOL and wider access to it. 

 

But I want to make this general point about voluntary sector organisations.  The situation for voluntary sector organisations is controlled by what funding they are able to secure.  They don't have any government department they can lobby. Voluntary sector organisations bidding for funding to meet local needs will not secure funding if their bids are not perceived as value for money by funding organisations.  Which latter, unfortunately, look at the whole field of pay, including starvation rates paid by private sector providers.  I'm not saying this is good, I'm saying this is the situation charities and VSOs operate in, particularly during a period where there is more and more desperate need and more and more demand on limited and severely stretched funding resources. 

 

We can flatter ourselves that we in FE are meeting ESOL needs, but I can tell you straight, there are large numbers of learners we don't begin to reach.  If voluntary sector organisations don't pick up the slack, these learners will never access education.  I'm thinking, for instance, of women with under school age children, asylum seekers not on NASS support, refused asylum seekers trying to appeal, learners in work but on low incomes who aren't entitled to benefit and can't afford our fees.

  

And yes, what I was offered when I got the job in 2004 was not the greatest money and was about £3K less than the going rate for equivalent Vol Sector orgs elsewhere at the time.

However, I joined a charity that had been founded a mere 3 years earlier, in 2001.  New charities are damn lucky to get adequate funding to employ staff at all.  For 9 years I was the only full-time employee, everyone else was on part-time contracts.  They now don't employ anyone full-time, funding doesn't permit it.

The charity had been founded to address the needs of the (then) hundreds of incoming asylum seekers and refugees in Southampton.  It did, and does, a magnificent job, has built real track record and expertise and is still the only locally based charity in Southampton providing targeted services to refugees and asylum seekers. (Refugee Action have a toehold but are not based in Soton any more.) 

 

As for private sector organisations delivering Government contracts, the race to the bottom is vicious and unremitting, and failing a change in government ethos (dream on) I don't see how we get out of this one.

 

 

On Sat, Dec 7, 2013 at 10:29 PM, NORMA BREWER <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

Allegra and co members of this forum!

£14k per annum? Fulltime??" proven and demonstrable experience of working in an environment that demands strong interpersonal, oral and written communication skills."

" responsibility will be to develop, administer and deliver all aspects of the ESOL course in line with the core curriculum and awarding body specification.

 

Qualifications:

 

Minimum: Level 3 Subject Specialism PTTLS

 

Desirable: DTTLS/Certificate In Education / PGCE, Level 5 subject specialism."

 

Is 28 hours pw seen as full time ?

When I started, many years ago at an FE College, I did 30 hours pw , 21 hours of which was teaching. I think it was 38 weeks pa.

I think the lowest I organised pay for was £16 per hour back in 1994, for qualified staff.

 

£10 per hour is absolute rubbish in 2013. £9 an hour in 2004 was also terrible,.

even for part-qualified people. This is ten years later- and there's been inflation. 

It was £8 an hour in the late 80's in cheapo private schools.

Many people pay cleaners £9 an hour.

I know people want work, and experience, but this undercutting of salaries just makes things bad for everyone.

It's like 'Song of a Shirt' where  nunneries would sew shirts cheaply, while seamstresses trying to earn their - and their children's bread had to sit up all night to earn a crust- and still had to pay for the actual thread they used at a retail, not a wholesale price!

If people bid for funding using salaries- I mean wages- which undercut the basic levels, they will get the contracts, and the organisations with the money- and the clout- will just keep looking for lower and lower prices. So things will just get worse.

The labourer is worth of her hire.

Please, DON'T work for these low salaries.

I think people on the list should agree that there is a minimum rate for the job. I was going to say  "which should be, perhaps, what is paid at local colleges for similar work."

but this job was advertised through a local college!!

Join NATECLA, join a union, and value yourselves.

I've been in this business a long time, and it distresses me to see that things have got worse.

Warm wishes

Norma Brewer

 

Norma Brewer

[log in to unmask]

 

---

From: Allegra Carlton <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Saturday, 7 December 2013, 12:54
Subject: Re: ESOL SALARIES

 

Is this the same post or another one?  The salary is £10 per hour.    

The minimum requirement is PTTLS, so while they are asking for relevant skills, experience etc, they are preparing to employ someone who has not yet got relevant qualifications.  

I was going to sound off about this, but then I stopped to think.  In fact this is how I personally got into ESOL initially; having got CELTA (level 4 equivalent, at least back then, don't know about now), I got a job in 2004 with a local refugee charity for a starting salary that equated to £9 per hour, and ran one in-house pre-entry course alongside other work supporting refugees into employment, while I did DTLLS and subsequently a PGCE.

On the other hand, when I started that job I was not expected to run a range of courses round the city. What's more,that was 10 years ago into the bargain.  By the time I was made redundant in 2011 (cashflow exigencies caused by the UKBA finally paying a funding tranche in December 2011 that had been due in February 2011 - small, flybynight organisation that it is) we were running a good few courses for which I was responsible, including quite a number round the city but by then I was on a significantly higher salary which took into account not only inflation but also increased levels of responsibility.

So while I recognise that voluntary and charitable sector organisations are virtually always operating on very tight budgets, offering £10 per hour for an ESOL post starting in 2014 is pretty cheap in more than one sense of the word.  I take it someone wrote this amount into a bid for funding, so is unlikely to increase its offer.  In my view, this organisation is attempting to get a silk purse out of a sow's ear.    When and if the organisation bids for funding in future, it should price ESOL delivery at a fair rate.

Best wishes

Allegra

 

 

On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 4:40 PM, NORMA BREWER <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

 

 

Norma Brewer

 

 

Another low paying ESOL job???  Also stated as 'Full time'

Who can afford to live on £14k?

Salaries have always been low in the field, but this trend needs to be challenged.

Norma Brewer

 

Sorry I first sent this from an alternative address.

 

On Tue, Dec 3, 2013 at 8:18 PM, Mohammed Ali <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

Dear Sir/Madam

 

Could you please circulate the below advert to all the esol forum members?

 

Kind Regards,

 

Nazia Ali

QED UK

 

Job Title: ESOL Tutor

Salary: £14,560 per annum

Hours: 28 hours per week

Location: Bradford & Leeds, West Yorkshire

Duration: January 2014 - June 2014

 

A full-time ESOL Tutor is required by a Bradford based training charity to support and develop the learning and skills of our adult learners. You will be required to deliver courses from our centres in Bradford and Leeds in West Yorkshire.

 

Your primary responsibility will be to develop, administer and deliver all aspects of the ESOL course in line with the core curriculum and awarding body specification.

 

Qualifications:

 

Minimum: Level 3 Subject Specialism PTTLS

 

Desirable: DTTLS/Certificate In Education / PGCE, Level 5 subject specialism.

 

Experience:

 

As the successful candidate you will have proven and demonstrable experience of working in an environment that demands strong interpersonal, oral and written communication skills.

 

Have demonstrated flexibility and the ability to work to deadlines and under pressure

 

Recent experience, and appropriate knowledge, of teaching ESOL

 

Skills and Abilities:

 

Able to form good working relationships

 

Responds to identified needs by undertaking self-directed learning, research and training as required

 

Establishes internal/external links as required

 

Please reply with covering note to Nazia Ali at [log in to unmask] by Friday 20 December 2013.

 

*********************************** ESOL-Research is a forum for researchers and practitioners with an interest in research into teaching and learning ESOL. ESOL-Research is managed by James Simpson at the Centre for Language Education Research, School of Education, University of Leeds. To join or leave ESOL-Research, visit http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/ESOL-RESEARCH.html A quick guide to using Jiscmail lists can be found at: http://jiscmail.ac.uk/help/using/quickuser.htm To contact the list owner, send an email to [log in to unmask]

 

*********************************** ESOL-Research is a forum for researchers and practitioners with an interest in research into teaching and learning ESOL. ESOL-Research is managed by James Simpson at the Centre for Language Education Research, School of Education, University of Leeds. To join or leave ESOL-Research, visit http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/ESOL-RESEARCH.html A quick guide to using Jiscmail lists can be found at: http://jiscmail.ac.uk/help/using/quickuser.htm To contact the list owner, send an email to [log in to unmask]

 

*********************************** ESOL-Research is a forum for researchers and practitioners with an interest in research into teaching and learning ESOL. ESOL-Research is managed by James Simpson at the Centre for Language Education Research, School of Education, University of Leeds. To join or leave ESOL-Research, visit http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/ESOL-RESEARCH.html A quick guide to using Jiscmail lists can be found at: http://jiscmail.ac.uk/help/using/quickuser.htm To contact the list owner, send an email to [log in to unmask]

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Norma Brewer <[log in to unmask]>
To: Mohammed Ali <[log in to unmask]>
Cc: [log in to unmask]
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2013 13:19:58 +0000
Subject: Re: ESOL tutor vacancy

Another low paying ESOL job???  Also stated as 'Full time'

Who can afford to live on £14k?

Salaries have always been low in the field, but this trend needs to be challenged.

Norma Brewer

 

 

On Tue, Dec 3, 2013 at 8:18 PM, Mohammed Ali <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

Dear Sir/Madam

 

Could you please circulate the below advert to all the esol forum members?

 

Kind Regards,

 

Nazia Ali

QED UK

 

Job Title: ESOL Tutor

Salary: £14,560 per annum

Hours: 28 hours per week

Location: Bradford & Leeds, West Yorkshire

Duration: January 2014 - June 2014

 

A full-time ESOL Tutor is required by a Bradford based training charity to support and develop the learning and skills of our adult learners. You will be required to deliver courses from our centres in Bradford and Leeds in West Yorkshire.

 

Your primary responsibility will be to develop, administer and deliver all aspects of the ESOL course in line with the core curriculum and awarding body specification.

 

Qualifications:

 

Minimum: Level 3 Subject Specialism PTTLS

 

Desirable: DTTLS/Certificate In Education / PGCE, Level 5 subject specialism.

 

Experience:

 

As the successful candidate you will have proven and demonstrable experience of working in an environment that demands strong interpersonal, oral and written communication skills.

 

Have demonstrated flexibility and the ability to work to deadlines and under pressure

 

Recent experience, and appropriate knowledge, of teaching ESOL

 

Skills and Abilities:

 

Able to form good working relationships

 

Responds to identified needs by undertaking self-directed learning, research and training as required

 

Establishes internal/external links as required

 

Please reply with covering note to Nazia Ali at [log in to unmask] by Friday 20 December 2013.

 

*********************************** ESOL-Research is a forum for researchers and practitioners with an interest in research into teaching and learning ESOL. ESOL-Research is managed by James Simpson at the Centre for Language Education Research, School of Education, University of Leeds. To join or leave ESOL-Research, visit http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/ESOL-RESEARCH.html A quick guide to using Jiscmail lists can be found at: http://jiscmail.ac.uk/help/using/quickuser.htm To contact the list owner, send an email to [log in to unmask]

 

*********************************** ESOL-Research is a forum for researchers and practitioners with an interest in research into teaching and learning ESOL. ESOL-Research is managed by James Simpson at the Centre for Language Education Research, School of Education, University of Leeds. To join or leave ESOL-Research, visit http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/ESOL-RESEARCH.html A quick guide to using Jiscmail lists can be found at: http://jiscmail.ac.uk/help/using/quickuser.htm To contact the list owner, send an email to [log in to unmask]

 

--
Allegra

*********************************** ESOL-Research is a forum for researchers and practitioners with an interest in research into teaching and learning ESOL. ESOL-Research is managed by James Simpson at the Centre for Language Education Research, School of Education, University of Leeds. To join or leave ESOL-Research, visit http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/ESOL-RESEARCH.html A quick guide to using Jiscmail lists can be found at: http://jiscmail.ac.uk/help/using/quickuser.htm To contact the list owner, send an email to [log in to unmask]

 

 

--
Allegra

*********************************** ESOL-Research is a forum for researchers and practitioners with an interest in research into teaching and learning ESOL. ESOL-Research is managed by James Simpson at the Centre for Language Education Research, School of Education, University of Leeds. To join or leave ESOL-Research, visit http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/ESOL-RESEARCH.html A quick guide to using Jiscmail lists can be found at: http://jiscmail.ac.uk/help/using/quickuser.htm To contact the list owner, send an email to [log in to unmask]

*********************************** ESOL-Research is a forum for researchers and practitioners with an interest in research into teaching and learning ESOL. ESOL-Research is managed by James Simpson at the Centre for Language Education Research, School of Education, University of Leeds. To join or leave ESOL-Research, visit http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/ESOL-RESEARCH.html A quick guide to using Jiscmail lists can be found at: http://jiscmail.ac.uk/help/using/quickuser.htm To contact the list owner, send an email to [log in to unmask]