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One of the major differences I noted between Denmark and the Netherlands is the speed of cycle traffic. It's true the Dutch cycle relatively slowly (well, maybe not in Amsterdam!) But the Danes cycle considerable faster and seem quite "competitive" (cruising a laden recumbent tricycle at 20 - 25km/hr on a segregated pavement cycle path in the outskirts of Copenhagen I was frequently overtaken by other cyclists, and even a girl on rollerblades! I couldn't believe how fast these guys used to cycle and manoeuvre in, relatively, close proximity to pedestrians.) The other thing to remember is the (engineering) design speed for cyclists is, variously, 20 to 24 km/hr, corresponding to the cruising speed, and the minimum (for safe manoeuvring) is 12km/hr. So the speeds you are quoting seem to be average speeds..not design speeds. As regarding mixing cyclists travelling at differing speeds, then that would depend on the lane width of the cycle path. Don't forget, the distance travelled to primary school is much shorter than to other schools, and often using on-carriageway in quiet and speed restricted residential roads. Older kids tend to travel much further on inter-residential and/or inter-urban cycle paths. So the range of traffic mixing, and relative speeds, is likely much narrower than you are suggesting. Also, (two-wheeled) cargo bikes (typically 65 centimetres.I have one) are only a few centimetres wider than a conventional bike. Whilst a tricycle box bike is wider, they are actually illegal (but tolerated) in the Netherlands (the legal maximum width of vehicles using cycle paths in the Netherlands is 75cm...my recumbent tricyle, at 84cm, is actually illegal). Delft University has a section that looked at cargo bikes some years ago (results broadcast on a consumer programme by Vara TV station, in 2007.) Tricycle box bikes are not recommended and, if you have one, they suggest you only cycle slowly..major stability issues (and if you watch the video, you'll understand why). Cheers John Meudell From: Cycling and Society Research Group discussion list [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Ian Perry Sent: 11 December 2013 18:23 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Cycling Speeds I've had a request for scientific data for cycling speeds in the Netherlands. Whilst we've discussed this issue, I can't find any research regarding this matter. Does anyone have any data, or know who has/might? My thoughts (of today) on cycling speeds and the real and perceived differences between the netherlands and UK are: Generally, the Dutch do cycle at a much slower pace than people in the UK, partly due to infrastructure, partly because they tend to cycle side-by-side talking with the friends, partly because they share their space with children and the elderly, partly because they sometimes have a second person on a bicycle and partly because many of their bicycles are very old and not designed for speed... When talking about speed, we may also wish to include cycling distances. Do people cycle more quickly in the UK because they generally travel greater distances? I do believe that people's behaviour is influenced by their immediate environment, including the people around them - their peer group. Make the environment pleasant and safe, give them a person cycling next to them to talk to, and they will behave differently to when they are fearful for their wellbeing. I was surprised recently to read an article from the Dutch town where I lived for almost 2-years, concerning the excessive speeds of some cyclists on Dutch cycle paths. What the Dutch may call excessive speeds are relative to their perceptions, plus, those complaining in the article were parents who had very young children cycling to school on their own bicycles, sharing the space with adults. In London, very, very few children cycle to school, accompanied or otherwise. The same is true of Copenhagen, relatively few children cycle - so is Copenhagen really an example we should be copying? How can we safely mix young children slowly making their way to school, with cycling commuters, rushing, a few minutes late already, to work? Child cyclists and motor vehicles on main/busy roads do not mix. The Dutch also have a problem in that they built cycle paths to minimum widths, that although greater than the maximum widths found in the UK and written in UK cycling design manuals, are too narrow for today's (bi)cycle traffic. The cargo-(Bi)cycle is increasingly popular as a means of transport, but these bicycles are both slower and wider than conventional bicycles, so are causing delay and frustration... I too have been stuck behind one on a 2-metre wide cycle path! We need to be thinking and planning for the future and this future is likely to include cargo bicycles - many Dutch students move home (including large furniture) using large cargo bicycles, which can be hired at universities and from companies in cities such as Groningen. If speeds on cycle paths are restricted by cargo bicycles, with limited possibility to pass, will commuters opt to use the road instead? In the UK, I believe so. It's most important to remember that cycling in the Netherlands is in a safe, relaxed environment, suitable for everyone, and when you are chatting to the person cycling next to you, the ride is pleasant and time is of less concern. In the UK, utility cycling (including commuting) is for adults. The behaviour witnessed is related to the environment and racing ahead and out of the way of motorised vehicles and staying alive is the focus of those cycling on the roads or on perilous cycle lanes. Cycling is for fit adults on expensive and capable (speedy) bicycles. Ian Perry