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Somewhere, I suggested 'post-avante'… as where we may be now. Tilla Tilla Brading [log in to unmask] On 2 Dec 2013, at 04:00, David Bircumshaw <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > Of course they are illusions Tim. The idea of the avant-garde is pure Saatchi and Hirst nowadays. Or even in the Nineties. Probably more correct that, I lost track of nowadays somewhere along the line. i remember that George Macbeth, who was definitely part of the mainstream, could also do every little trick and technique of the front line. I agree that things do not have to have a name, nor do people, I have most loved and liked others before I knew their names, when they are as anonymous as unmapped landscapes, and breathing. > > > > On 1 December 2013 14:49, Tim Allen <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > > On 1 Dec 2013, at 03:53, Dave wrote: > >> There is no avant-garde anymore, there is no mainstream, just the illusions of either. For sure, there are hierarchies, gang-culture tends to produce those. > > Oh blast bugger etc, here we go again. Whatever names are used, the poetic differences out there are as deep as they ever were, if not deeper. They are not illusions. In some cases the differences almost amount to complete aesthetic opposites with regard to what should be happening in writing poems. Why do people get so hung-up on the labels. Things do not have to have a name to exist. Just because a name is a problem does not mean that the thing the name is trying to designate does not exist. And of course there are hierarchies and cliques across the board. > > Tim A. > > > > > -- > David Joseph Bircumshaw > Website and A Chide's Alphabet > http://www.staplednapkin.org.uk > The Animal Subsides http://www.arrowheadpress.co.uk/books/animal.html > Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/david.bircumshaw > twitter: http://twitter.com/bucketshave > blog: http://groggydays.blogspot.com/ > Leicester Poetry Society: http://www.poetryleicester.com