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Hello Caroline, Thanks for mentioning this dissertation / chapter - it sounds very interesting. Another one for the reading list ... Regards, Rachel. Rachel Hardiman linkedin.com/pub/rachel-hardiman/22/915/45b<http://www.linkedin.com/pub/rachel-hardiman/22/915/45b> twitter.com/Paradoxographer uva.academia.edu/RachelHardiman On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 5:55 PM, Caroline Williams < [log in to unmask]> wrote: > Aargh - try this > > Helen Wood's University of Liverpool dissertation “The Fetish of the > Document: An Exploration of Attitudes Towards Archives” (published in New > Directions in Archival Research (2000)) is very interesting on this > > http://www.liv.ac.uk/lucas/research/ > > Caroline > > -----Original Message----- > From: Archivists, conservators and records managers. [mailto: > [log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Caroline Williams > Sent: 09 December 2013 16:51 > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: The most basic of Friday afternoon questions > > Sorry – the link was not all live > > Helen Wood's University of Liverpool dissertation “The Fetish of the > Document: An Exploration of Attitudes Towards Archives” (published in New > Directions in Archival Research (2000)) is very interesting on this > > > http://www.liv.ac.uk/study/postgraduate/taught/archives-and-records-manageme > nt-ma/overview/ > > Caroline > _____________________________________________ > From: Caroline Williams [mailto:[log in to unmask]] > Sent: 09 December 2013 15:59 > To: 'Cates, Jonathan'; [log in to unmask] > Subject: RE: The most basic of Friday afternoon questions > > > > Makes me think about how people may tend to fetishize certain documents, > investing them with special quality, energy or power etc as they do so - > both archivists and users… > > Helen Wood's University of Liverpool dissertation “The Fetish of the > Document: An Exploration of Attitudes Towards Archives” (published in New > Directions in Archival Research (2000)) is very interesting on this - > > http://www.liv.ac.uk/study/postgraduate/taught/archives-and-records-manageme > nt-ma/overview/ > > Caroline > > > Caroline Williams, BA, RMARA > Independent Archival Consultant > Senior Research Fellow, University of Liverpool > Visiting Professor, Liverpool John Moores University > President, Archives and Records Association > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Archivists, conservators and records managers. > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Cates, Jonathan > Sent: 09 December 2013 15:26 > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: The most basic of Friday afternoon questions > > Apologies to any and all who have had more than enough of this thread. All > subsequent views are my own, and hopefully authentic… > > I am reminded of two paintings by Leonardo da Vinci, both depicting the > ‘Virgin of the Rocks’. In art, just as in archives, notions of > ‘authenticity’ have played a huge part in determining value (evidential or > monetary – take your pick). Art historians and Leonardo scholars (I group > them –as they do themselves - separately), have wondered for generations > about the existence of two broadly similar compositions by an artist whose > small oeuvre is otherwise marked by its variety. Perhaps, then, one or the > other was a copy executed by lesser ‘assistants’ (in fact speculation > around > the London version has centred on the hand of the skilled, though hardly > jaw > dropping, Giovanni de Predis)? Both pictures were apparently commissioned > by > the Confraternity of the Immaculate Conception, but somehow neither made it > to their intended home. > > Almost 500 years after Leonardo’s death, we are still not sure how and why > the pictures came to be, but their survival can reveal much about the > circumstances of their creation. Technical analysis of the materials, > fingerprints, x-ray and infrared photography… all of these add to our > understanding of these enigmatic images. None of which, I might add, would > have been possible had we not retained the originals. The truth is, one of > them probably did come first, and the other has the hallmarks of a ‘copy’, > i.e. a composition repeated or derived from an ‘original’. How much, > though, > did that first image owe to influences, instructions and limitations > imposed > at the time? Wherever we begin or end, it is clear that both works, their > author(s), the circumstances surrounding their creation, and subsequent > existence is testament to considerable ‘value’ ascribed to them. They > continue to be cherished, studied, interpreted, and reinterpreted. > > So too, are archives. Human history is littered with associations with > emphasis on the canonical, original, and authorial. Never, however, has – > or > should – this be at the expense of the opportunities afforded to us by > repeating, refining, remaking (read, copying!). Yes, we can make and save > copies. Often, indeed, the copy becomes the ‘original’ – as it is with > Magna > Carta, or a final draft of a novel, and certainly with Domesday. History is > remembered courtesy of the complex and uneven survival of documents, > stories, copies, and artefacts that survive. > > In this part digital age, the authenticity or originality of records is > purported to be more in doubt than ever, and with it the value of ‘keeping’ > the original. Digital surrogacy is here to stay, and some paper records > will > ‘format shift’ after they have been appraised, selected, or sampled. This > is > inevitable. Having said that, archives around the world are leading on > initiatives to digitally ‘preserve’, maintain and access old or ‘obsolete’ > file formats, and ensure that the data and metadata associated with born > digital records is retained and saved, i.e. archives. (one such > initiative: > > http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/information-management/projects-and-work/ > digital-preservation.htm) > > Make no mistake, where we know of or keep ‘original’ documents – whatever > their format - we are by no means indulging in a fruitless and costly > exercise. > > Authenticity is not everything, but it is something! > > For more on the Virgin of the Rocks: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virgin_of_the_Rocks - which, I am afraid to > say, is something of the answer to that other (albeit more trivial) > question > ‘why not always just use Wikipedia?’ Wikipedia is something, but it is not > everything! > > Thanks, > Jonathan Cates > Collections Information & Systems Manager | Archives Sector Development The > National Archives | +44 (0) 20 8876 3444 > > From: Archivists, conservators and records managers. > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Cook, Bradley D > Sent: 09 December 2013 13:53 > To: JISCMAIL Archives > Subject: Re: The most basic of Friday afternoon questions > > For the Declaration I of course mean the original hand-written version, and > as far as the Magna Charta is concerned I would imagine that the original > 1215 version is more valuable (in monetary terms) than later versions. > Either way, I’m sure just about any person would agree that they are the > “originals”. At the very least and in terms of the point I was making these > are the originals one could use in making an argument to any person that > believes that an original document can be discarded after a copy of it has > been made. > > Related to this, I remember that about 10 years ago or so there was a show > on cable television that helped people organize their stuff/homes (I don’t > remember the name of the show). On one episode, the “organizer” was telling > the owner of one home that had several boxes of original negatives that > they > could simply scan all of the negatives and then dispose of them. Several of > us that saw this episode e-mailed the show about this to let them know how > appalled we were at such advice. > > Thank you, > > Bradley D. Cook - Curator of Photographs Office of University Archives & > Records Management Indiana University Herman B Wells Library E460 > 1320 East Tenth Street > Bloomington, Indiana 47405 > 812-855-4495<tel:812-855-4495> > [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> > Visit our website at: > http://www.libraries.iub.edu/archives > VENI, VIDI, VICI. > > From: Payne, Andrew [mailto:[log in to unmask]] > Sent: Monday, December 09, 2013 8:21 AM > To: Cook, Bradley D; JISCMAIL Archives > Subject: RE: The most basic of Friday afternoon questions > > Of course the Declaration of Independence and Magna Carta raise a whole > different question about what counts as the original. > > In the case of the Declaration of Independence is it the handwritten > version > which was signed by representatives of the Continental Congress after the > 4th July or is it the Dunlap prints produced on the 4th July which were > distributed to actually make the declaration real? > > Likewise with Magna Carta what is the relative value of the different > versions issued in 1215, 1225 and 1297? As the terms of the charter evolve > each time does this make each an “original”? Does this mean that each has > less or greater value or should they all be taken as a single evolving > document? > > Answers on a suitably sized piece of parchment (preferably vellum) or a > digital equivalent! > > Andrew Payne > Head of Education & Outreach > The National Archives > Tel: +44 (0)20 8392 5319 > Email: > [log in to unmask]<mailto: > andrew.payne@nationalarchive > s.gsi.gov.uk> > Web: www.nationalarchives.gov.uk<http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk> > See our new document bundle about Attlee's Britain > www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/education/topics/attlees-britain.htm< > http://www. > nationalarchives.gov.uk/education/topics/attlees-britain.htm> > > From: Archivists, conservators and records managers. > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Cook, Bradley D > Sent: 06 December 2013 15:53 > To: JISCMAIL Archives > Subject: Re: The most basic of Friday afternoon questions > > As an extreme example, here in the U.S.A., I always use the Declaration of > Independence and/or the U.S. Constitution as an example as the extreme at > one end of this argument; I don’t think any person would argue that you > photocopy (or scan) and then throw away the original. > > On the other end there are certainly records that can be, at the very > least, > sampled. As an example we used to have file cabinets filled with football > ticket requests (that’s American Football and not what we call Soccer). > This > is a perfect example of a record that can be sampled. In this case I might > also advocate that some statistics be compiled on the ticket requests being > thrown away. > > I’m not sure what you in the U.K. might consider to be your nation’s most > important document (Magna Charta?), but whatever it may be I would say that > there is your argument. You can also bring up personal/family documents > that > one would probably feel should be kept (e.g. birth certificates, > photographs > – particularly 19th and early 20th century images where the negatives no > longer exist and were not born digital). > > Thank you, > > Bradley D. Cook - Curator of Photographs Office of University Archives & > Records Management Indiana University Herman B Wells Library E460 > 1320 East Tenth Street > Bloomington, Indiana 47405 > 812-855-4495<tel:812-855-4495> > [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> > Visit our website at: > http://www.libraries.iub.edu/archives > VENI, VIDI, VICI. > > From: Archivists, conservators and records managers. > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Ed Sharpe, Archivist for > SMECC > Sent: Friday, December 06, 2013 10:34 AM > To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> > Subject: Re: The most basic of Friday afternoon questions > > In theory right... if the Orig. was a stored Email. that electronic > image would be the 'true first' > Ed# > > In a message dated 12/6/2013 8:31:53 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, > [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> writes: > And at that point we will lose many contemporary originals… > > From: Archivists, conservators and records managers. > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Ed Sharpe, Archivist for > SMECC > Sent: 06 December 2013 15:24 > To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> > Subject: Re: The most basic of Friday afternoon questions > > Paper is good... when the 'PULSE' comes.... it will survive... > any device with semiconductor junctions will be toast.... > > Ed Sharpe Archivist for SMECC > > In a message dated 12/6/2013 7:13:41 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, > [log in to unmask]<mailto: > [log in to unmask] > OM> writes: > The 'original' document is always required for authenticity , yes. > The look and feel of a manuscript or 16th century paper document yes, too. > > However the 'original' is also the blue print, loose the 'original' > document > and there is no going back, be it 15thC parchment or 21st electronic. > A lot of electronic records, such as pdf are security led and Microsoft > Word > have the security option, copyright plays a key role... > Also, would your friend bin a Monet or Turner original for a digital image? > > Richard Aitken ACR > Senior Conservator, > High Life Highland, > Highland Archive & Registration Centre, > Bught Road, > Inverness > IV3 5SS > T: 01463 256438 > M:07825 116513 > E: > [log in to unmask]<mailto: > [log in to unmask] > om> > > W: http://www.highlandarchives.org.uk<http://www.highlandarchives.org.uk/> > Follow us on Facebook: > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Archivists, conservators and records managers. > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Meic Pierce Owen > Sent: 06 December 2013 13:57 > To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> > Subject: Re: The most basic of Friday afternoon questions > > Archivally I agree entirely...and this is where we are at this > point...context and 'content v contact' (that is...what is of value > here- the content or the thing itself?) > > -----Original Message----- > From: Archivists, conservators and records managers. > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Payne, Andrew > Sent: 06 December 2013 13:54 > To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> > Subject: Re: The most basic of Friday afternoon questions > > I would suggest a simple experiment as follows: > > > 1. Select a suitably impressive document - something that has major > local or national historical significance or, if possible, one that would > have deep personal resonance for him (even a personal family document). A > holograph would be particularly good but it's not essential. > > > 2. Transcribe said document into a suitably boring typeface e.g. > Arial 10 point, and print on to A4 paper or display as a Word document on > screen (preferably with all the paraphernalia of menus etc) > > > > 3. Keep the original out of sight, but in a conveniently located box > (maybe with a cover and tied up in archival tape etc to add to the > theatre). > > > > 4. Invite your sceptical friend in and say you wish to show them a > document that you think they will find interesting. > > > > 5. Reveal the transcript on screen or paper and discuss the > significance of the document with them to engage them with the > "information" > which the document holds. > > > > 6. Once they are suitably engaged, dramatically reveal the original > with plenty of theatre to help build their anticipation. > > > > 7. Present them with the original, allow them to handle it if > possible, and stand back to monitor reaction. > > > > 8. If he can genuinely say he is has no response to the original > document as an artefact (as opposed to simply a piece of "information") > then > check his pulse and breathing for signs of human life. > > > Good luck! > > Andrew > Andrew Payne > Head of Education & Outreach > The National Archives > Tel: +44 (0)20 8392 5319 > Email: > [log in to unmask]<mailto: > andrew.payne@nationalarchive > s.gsi.gov.uk> > Web: www.nationalarchives.gov.uk<http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/> > See our new document bundle about Attlee's Britain > www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/education/topics/attlees-britain.htm< > http://www. > nationalarchives.gov.uk/education/topics/attlees-britain.htm> > > From: Archivists, conservators and records managers. > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Elizabeth Oxborrow-Cowan > Sent: 06 December 2013 13:02 > To: JISCMAIL Archives > Subject: The most basic of Friday afternoon questions > > Dear Colleagues > > I have utterly failed my profession. Over a rather good bottle of red last > Friday night I could not convince a friend of the importance of the > original > document (even though I have countered this several times for clients). He > simply could not see why you could not just have copies and I was unable to > find what to him was the killer argument. I thought this was an > interesting > fact as it perhaps displayed how the general public fail to understand why > archives matter whilst all the time benefitting from their presence. My > friend is very intelligent and certainly no cultural barbarian. So, I > thought I would lay this one before my esteemed colleagues. I also thought > that it might provide some of you with useful ideas for when it is your > Chief Executive rather than a slightly tipsy chum throwing this one at you. > > I look forward to all your comments, which I will then collate and pass on > to said friend and see if I can change his mind. All responses welcome both > serious and not so serious > > With warm regards > > Elizabeth > > Elizabeth Oxborrow-Cowan Msc, MIC, RMARA Consultant Archivist and Director > > Elizabeth Oxborrow-Cowan Associates > 01939 234289/ 07719 609894 > [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]<mailto: > elizab > [log in to unmask]:[log in to unmask]>> > > > This email was received from the INTERNET and scanned by the Government > Secure Intranet anti-virus service supplied by Vodafone in partnership with > Symantec. (CCTM Certificate Number 2009/09/0052.) 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