When we at LCC took our study trip to the Netherlands we deliberately visited higher-density urban areas such as Amsterdam, Utrecht and Rotterdam. We were guided by knowledgeable people from CROW, the Dutch Cycling Embassy and the Fietsersbond in order to provide context to what we saw. We also met the architect of Sustainable Safety (now retired) and others from Stop de Kindermoord.I don't claim to be the world's leading expert on Dutch infrastructure, but I am an advocate. I'm comfortable with this position because I've been to the Netherlands (several times), ridden it, talked about it, compared it with my own experience living in the UK and other countries, read the CROW manual (we have a copy, of course), and done my best to absorb information from countless other blogs (both for and against). I would say the same is true for my colleagues, and resent the cheap jibe that we might be "policy tourists".As for our trip being a "jolly", I can honestly say our study tour was one of the most tiring weeks I've ever worked.So rather than insulting those who've taken the effort to experience what it's like across the North Sea, I would reserve scorn for the countless people (the history of British cycle campaigning is littered with them) who dismissed Dutch cycling facilities without ever having seen them.Kind RegardsMike CavenettCommunications ManagerLondon Cycling CampaignOn 28 Oct 2013, at 18:34, Jim Davis wrote:I have to admit, I bought one, scanned each page and then made it available on a private Google Drive for other Board Members of the Cycling Embassy of Great Britain (it still can't be bought electronically) which took great patience and dedication :)John - You raise some interesting points, but surely it also helps to have interpreters of the Dutch cultural and historical background in such people as Mark Wagenbuur, Marc van Woudenburg and of course David Hembrow - a chap that has also banged his head against the wall of British Cycle Campaigning. One of the first things I did as Founder and Chair of the Cycling Embassy of Great Britain was to organise for a group of us to go on his Study Tour as it's all very well extolling the virtues of Dutch cycling infrastructure but quite something else to see it in context and how it's used and why a particular solution was selected in the first place. Most of us continue to go back to gain further background understanding - indeed, I am heading to Amsterdam at the end of the week (partly for the day job for World Architecture News). The difference being that unlike many, when we rode off the ferry at Harwich we were still convinced it could be done here and it was far from being a jolly. I think it would be insulting to arbitrarily write these opinions off, or dismiss them as the views of 'policy tourists'. Assuming you meant CEoGB of course!I also think it's a bit better than the previous UK arrangement of totally ignoring the Netherlands (et al) except on a CTC Tour sheet which I used to post to members on a regular basis :)Wishing you all the best--Jim DavisMob: 07545 598998Twitter: @lofidelityjimFounder & Board Member, Cycling Embassy of Great BritainMaking riding a bike as easy as riding a bikePersonal Jottings: The Lo Fidelity Bicycle ClubOn 28 October 2013 18:18, Jennings Gail <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
There are quite a few sites that offer a download, but I'm wary of handing over credit card details to a relatively unknown (to me) site - one being gobookee.org.CROW ordering is paper copy only I believe. About £85. Haven't heard about an electronic version.Kat
Sent from my iPadNo, bought mine at VeloCity in Munich a few years back….cost an arm and a leg (for a self-financing researcher….they don’t do discounts (I did ask))! Somewhat distressingly, despite having exposure to lots of highways engineers and their organizations across the UK, the only other copy I’ve ever come across was in the possession of CTC headquarters.
Cheers
John
From: Cycling and Society Research Group discussion list [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Jennings Gail
Sent: 28 October 2013 16:25
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Examples of Any Cycling Cities Which Don't Segregate?
Do you know how to download CROW by the way? I've seen it for download on sites that may or may not be trustworthy? Anyone had any experiences there?
On 28 Oct 2013, at 5:56 PM, John Meudell <[log in to unmask]> wrote:Actually, yes, the parameters for segregation and non-segregation are quite clear in the CROW……but I suspect few outside the Netherlands have “read” that document.
To be honest I’m really quite disappointed with the “Let’s Go Dutch” campaign in the UK. Most of the proponents have only spent a few days on a jolly designed to fulfil the intent of a small cadre of campaigners, few of whom take the time to gain an understanding of the wider transportation and spatial planning contexts, highways safety approach or the national culture within which those take place.
This is one of the areas I feel the cycling research communities efforts have fallen down (though I’ll agree I’m not as widely read as some). That said, having lived and worked (and cycled……and caught buses and boats and trains and aeroplanes!) in a number of countries I have (of necessity) learnt to understand, and work with and within, the cultural frameworks and norms of the particular country I’m in.
To somehow extract cycling elements without critical examination of the context and frameworks within which this activity takes place, in my view, will tend to undermine the quality and robustness of the analysis.
Don’t get me wrong, having lived, worked, cycles (and caught buses and boats and trains and aeroplanes) in the Netherlands since I first moved there in the 70’s, I’m all for going Dutch (or any other country of city where cycling is comparatively safe and convenient). But, without recognising and addressing the context and culture within which cycling take place, results are likely to be, at best, inconclusive and, at worst, downright dangerous.
The same would apply for any trans-national comparisons.
Cheers
John Meudell
From: Cycling and Society Research Group discussion list [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Carlosfelipe Pardo
Sent: 28 October 2013 00:42
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Examples of Any Cycling Cities Which Don't Segregate?
As far as I know, Segregation is a function of volume, speed and presence of lorries. Isn't it defined pretty clearly in the CROW manual?
Probably sent while riding a bicycle. Please excuse typos
On 27/10/2013, at 16:33, Katja Leyendecker <[log in to unmask]> wrote:Has anyone read City Cycling? Segregation, as you call it, is a necessary item in the engineering and planning toolbox of creating a liveable city - as are filtered permeability, car parking charges, pedestrianisation and other vehicle restraint measures.
Kat
Sent from my iPad
On 27 Oct 2013, at 18:40, burton richard <[log in to unmask]> wrote:Steve,
the question you ask seems to beg the answer that segregation is the answer, and having attended the debate at UWE on the subject where you were proposing segregation, one might be forgiven for thinking that there might be some researcher bias here! That debate came to no conclusion, since as you point out, there are a large number of variable factors at work together and isolating the effects of any single factor is practically impossible. Since it is so difficult to identify any single cause and effect, it would be misleading to try to prove that one single factor is or is not responsible for changing levels of cycling. It is indeed unlikely that any single factor has a significant effect, and there are examples of this e.g. Milton Keynes with an extensive segregated network, but low levels of cycling.
Surely a better approach than the almost impossible task of trying to identify a single cause and effect, would be to identify which combination of factors has acheived significant changes? There may be examples which show that segregation has some effect, and some which show the opposite, but in both cases, it is likely that other factors had a significant effect also. Or perhaps looking at what factors were influential in common with segregation.
To say that segregation is or is not the answer is asking the wrong question.
On 27 October 2013 15:55, Steven Melia <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
I am currently writing a book with the working title 'Why Transport Isn't Moving' (for UIT Cambridge www.uit.co.uk). A few of the chapters will deal with issues related to cycling.
The more you look into the broader questions of 'what causes what?' you realise that the typical question: what difference did policy X make? is almost always impossible to answer. Over the longer term, politics, infrastructure, culture and behaviour are all related to each other. It may, however, be possible, to approach a question from a different angle. One way of looking at the old chestnut about segregation versus 'cycling on normal roads' is to ask:
Are there any examples of cities in developed countries with high rates of cycling (e.g. over 20% modal share) which do NOT have an extensive network of segregated cycle routes?
A 'cycle route' is not the same as a 'cycle path' of course. 'Segregation' may take many different forms, including filtered permeability i.e. roads closed to through traffic except bikes. In several years of studying European 'cycling cities', I have never found an example of such an exception. I have never been to Japan. Osaka is the only city which appears in the international top lists. I understand there are few cycle paths, but pavement cycling is normal (tolerated though not legal). Osaka also has narrow historic streets where segregation is not needed. I can't find any English language literature about cycling in Japan.
Is anyone aware of any examples, or anything which has been written which might help to answer this question?
Best Regards
Steve Melia
Senior Lecturer
Transport and Planning
University of the West of England
Mike101 Ohio BuildingDeals GatewayLondonSE13 7RX07939 606359