JISCMail - OCC-HEALTH Archives

Hi Jane

There is no hard and fast guidance on when to refer for treatment in such cases as it does not follow the normal medical model of illness. In these sort of cases I would normally keep it simple and advise management that as yet the employee does not feel able to resume normal life as yet and that at this time there is no evident "medical" solution that would facilitate OH in advising on an early return to work. Then suggest that management stay in regular supportive contact and ensuring they are willing to support a phased return to work at any time she feels ready and re-refer if no RTW in 8 weeks at which time it may be more appropriate for medical interventions to be discussed with employee/GP if no progress by that time.

Then step back

carr

On 19 September 2013 10:48, Jane Gould <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

Thank you all and sorry if it made for painful memories for any of you .
I have searched everywhere for that evidence of waiting 6 months - which I thought the case but my research found no mention of this time span (CRUSE, Royal Society of Psychiatrists, Nice etc) PLEASE would someone kindly provide me a link which advices the 6 month wait? Thanks again

Jane

From: Jo Clayton <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Thursday, 19 September 2013, 9:50

Subject: Re: [OCC-HEALTH] Bereavement when it goes on

Hi,

I think this is a very tricky one… CRUSE will not see someone at this early stage of bereavement. They prefer around 6 months. It is too raw to consider counselling and most GP’s won’t advocate counselling at this stage for this reason.

Bereavement hits everyone differently. Being a young girl and losing her mum must be extremely traumatic. I don’t think 2.5 months is excessive at all. Although I would look at some form of reduced hours return at around 3 months. Adding some structure to the day can be useful in ‘recovery’. From personal experience (fiancé was killed in RTA) I found 3-4 hrs a day helpful. I was nursing at the time and told myself I must keep it together for this time and saved any tears for home time. It was helpful, it did add structure and socialisation but that really was all I could manage for a few months.

Jo

From: [log in to unmask] [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of sharon naylor
Sent: 18 September 2013 20:59
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [OCC-HEALTH] Bereavement when it goes on

Bereavement isnt an illness, its a natural (albeit unpleasant ) process. However - peoples reaction to bereavement is so variable, and I have yet to determine when it becomes a more "clinical" state eg depression. And its a situation that a lot of people dont want to tackle from a management perspective, especially when a GP is sanctioning longer term absence via a fit note. In cynical moments I believe this could be termed as "medicalisation", especially when there is no evidence of intervention or treatment. When faced with similar cases in the past I have been tempted to sit on the fence but have normally stated my bit about bereavement being a natural process etc so from a clinical perspective I might consider the individual "fit" to return to work but that the GP (as his patients advocate)may disagree, and then outline ways that management may want to expedite a return to work by offering reduced hours etc and that they may need to acknowledge that performance and demeanour may be adversely affected in the longer term . The effects of bereavement are normally fairly acute for 12 months or so, and the anniversary of the loved ones death is a pivotal moment. So to me it begs the question - what about people that DONT take extended absence but come to work, and get on with it accompanied by their grief? Doesnt seem quite equable to me.

In answer to your question, I believe that an employer may indeed have the right to dismiss if the persons attendance does not meet a satisfactory standard (defined in their policies) , esp if their absences are high without the "bereavement" ones.

Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2013 16:51:59 +0100
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [OCC-HEALTH] Bereavement when it goes on
To: [log in to unmask]

Sorry this is long

Have a case young girl off since her Mum died 2.5 months ago- does not want counseling does not want to talk to any but her family. (I have informed her of Cruse)

Reading around the subject to see different policies - so many organizations suggest go back when you feel ready . Also came across the following case (please see below) . Do I understand correctly that in theory an employee may lose their job for taking extended or (more than one) bereavement leave? from this. I am trying to coax her back to work with phasing in etc.. etc..
With all sympathy when is grief too long? I do not want to lose my therapeutic relationship with her and push too hard.
As always many thanks
Jane

Forster v Cartwright Black [2004] IRLR 781, EAT

Within five months of the commencement of her employment, Forster had taken 12 days' bereavement leave following the death of her father. Five months later, her mother died. She then took five days' bereavement leave, and suffered an illness described as a 'bereavement reaction', for which she took two consecutive periods of two weeks' certified sick leave.

Prior to the first bereavement and before the second, she had five other days of sick. At the end of the month of bereavement reaction illness, she was dismissed due to her absence record. She claimed unfair dismissal in the employment tribunal on the grounds that she was dismissed for taking time off in consequence of the death of a dependant under s.57A of the Employment Rights Act 1996.

Her case failed because the employment tribunal held that following a doctor's advice not to work did not amount to "action which is necessary ... in consequence of the death of a dependant".

The Employment Appeal Tribunal agreed with that finding. Her dismissal because of her absence record was not for an inadmissible reason.

The law is clear that taking time off is a "necessary action" in consequence of a death. This does not have to be applied solely to making funeral arrangements, but also includes other actions that have to be taken when a dependant dies.

However, the court confirmed that the provisions of the Act are not intended to create a right to compassionate leave as a result of a bereavement, but are only intended to enable people to deal with the practicalities of death.

Jane

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