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I think this is really tricky. There is no question, in this request, of commenting on the content of the submission, but only on its presentation. Thank you for posting it, because it raises a lot of questions for me. Do we know that it is clear to the student what is being assessed in this kind of submission, and that we expect them to write to this standard without any help? Is this really explicit in the assessment criteria? We may all know what is expected for an English-language award but do we know that because we've already both been a student and worked for years in the UK HE system? Or is a particular standard of English actually codified in the regulations? Thinking about the purpose of the assessment, would this kind of proof-reading actually be helpful in ensuring that the content of the student's work is properly presented and is not lost behind poor written English? If we proof-read submissions for friends/children/colleagues where do we draw the line between pointing out sample errors and suggesting alternatives? I would expect to work on this kind of thing with a student, as a supervisor, but not all supervisors are willing or able to do so - does the availability of this service redress the balance? Or does it just enshrine inequities? This kind of service is considered acceptable for submissions to English-language scientific journals - and is even recommended sometimes - so what's different about assessment for a taught degree? I am only asking these questions, I don't necessarily agree with the implied statements in them! I do think that Chris is probably right. But is this approach perpetuating the uncertainties? (steps back and waits to be told the answers fairly forcefully....!) Rachel Dr R Forsyth Principal Lecturer for Curriculum Development and Innovation [cid:image001.png@01CE9E8C.418E2DD0] 1st Floor, All Saints Manchester Metropolitan University Manchester M15 6BG [log in to unmask] +44 (0) 161 247 1128 rachel.forsyth (Skype) @rmforsyth (Twitter) http://www.celt.mmu.ac.uk/ From: Plagiarism [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Christopher Whyley Sent: 21 August 2013 16:14 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Translators and Proof Readers In my opinion it is fine for a student to ask for his errors to be pointed out, but not to ask for them to be corrected. A supervisor should do a lot of the first and a little of the second without being asked and without being paid. That's part of a supervisor's job surely? Chris On 21/08/2013 15:56, Wells, Julian wrote: Several points here: (1) It's a worry if any student (international or otherwise) has got the stage of being asked to write 35,000 words (MRes? MPhil?) without losing the habit of the various style crimes mentioned in the call (2) On the other hand, there's no way of telling what scale of problem is anticipated. If at least one of these varied sins is committed on every page, then see point (1) above. But perhaps the student is one of the "worried well", in which case see (4) below (3) Proof-reading a 35,000-word text to a professional standard is not a small job (and in the days when I worked in newspapers and publishing no-one was supposed to proof-read their own work). (4) Moreover, I used to find that there's a U-shaped curve relating percentage of errors detected to their density on the page (too many, or too few, errors make it harder to catch the ones that are there) Julian Dr Julian Wells Director of Studies Economics staff web-page: http://fass.kingston.ac.uk/staff/cv.php?staffnum=287 personal web-site: http://staffnet.kingston.ac.uk/~ku32530<http://staffnet.kingston.ac.uk/%7Eku32530> Principal lecturer in economics School of Economics, History and Politics Faculty of Arts and Social Sciences Kingston University Penrhyn Road Kingston-upon-Thames KT1 2EE United Kingdom +44 (0)20 8417 2341 From: Plagiarism [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Niels R. Walet Sent: 21 August 2013 15:19 To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Translators and Proof Readers It does depend. Do they want this highlighted to them (i.e., where is it wrong) or corrected. The first is, I think, OK even though it probably violates some rule (most supervisors will normally do that anyway), the second is absolutely not. I suspect they are looking for the second, not the first: so that would be too far. Niels On 21/08/13 14:59, PENELOPE BOOTH wrote: My immeate reaction is - no, it is far too far. However, I wonder if anyone out there would argue that it is not more than what is normally done nowadays (yes, I know that doesn't make it 'right', I'm just saying it is what 'normally' happens. I wonder what the student expects to pay for this wonder-job......? From: Robert Clarke <[log in to unmask]><mailto:[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> Sent: Wednesday, 21 August 2013, 14:53 Subject: Re: Translators and Proof Readers Here is a typical posting on Freelancer. Does it represent a "legitimate" action by the student? I need someone to proofread an academic dissertation of 35,000 words. Level of English is already very good, just need to go through some details like : 1. Avoiding colloquial abbreviations. 2. Avoiding bombastic words when simple ones do. 3. Avoiding using the same word over and over again. 4. Avoiding a conversational tone. 5. Use a more academic style of writing, by using 'we' instead of 'I', for instance.- improve style and tone. Material will be submitted in parts within the next few days. Deadline for the whole job is Wednesday 28th August. I'm attaching the first chapter here. KINDLY PROOF READ THE FIRST FIVE TO TEN PAGES AS A SAMPLE OF YOUR WORK ************************************************************************* You are subscribed to the JISC Plagiarism mailing list. To Unsubscribe, change your subscription options, or access list archives, visit http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/PLAGIARISM.html ************************************************************************* ************************************************************************* You are subscribed to the JISC Plagiarism mailing list. To Unsubscribe, change your subscription options, or access list archives, visit http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/PLAGIARISM.html ************************************************************************* -- Prof. Niels R. Walet Phone: +44(0)1613063693 School of Physics and Astronomy Fax: +44(0)1613064303 The University of Manchester Mobile: +44(0)7905438934 Manchester, M13 9PL, UK room 7.7, Schuster Building email: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> web: http://www.theory.physics.manchester.ac.uk/~mccsnrw<http://www.theory.physics.manchester.ac.uk/%7Emccsnrw> This email has been scanned for all viruses by the MessageLabs Email Security System. ************************************************************************* You are subscribed to the JISC Plagiarism mailing list. To Unsubscribe, change your subscription options, or access list archives, visit http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/PLAGIARISM.html ************************************************************************* This email has been scanned for all viruses by the MessageLabs Email Security System. ************************************************************************* You are subscribed to the JISC Plagiarism mailing list. 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