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Hi Cath

It may be that she is against employees and managers dropping in for confidential chats outside process and in many OH departments this is discouraged as it breaks lines of communication between employee and manager and manager and HR etc. 

By all means you need a confidential environment for actual OH assessments (subsequent to the employee having told the manager they are struggling to cope with work etc) and  and for follow up telephone calls etc but it may be worth while looking at whether the current culture needs review. Managers can benefit from ad hoc coaching about how to refer etc but maybe you need to consider whether while you may be busy are you efficient from the perspective of what actually needs to be achieved by the OH department particularly since you are part time? Maybe this is what is driving her demands? Why would HR not be involved with the manager's confidential chats considering these should not include discussion of medical circumstance etc?

Carr


On 14 August 2013 20:07, Cath <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
Thanks for this
 
I have my IDP meeting this week and may mention my concerns re confidentiality and that the progress I have made with the managers and employees trusting me enough to drop in for confidential chats/advice and that this is definitely development of my role. I also think she expect a full tyime service in part time hours.
 
We can give it a try
 
thanks
 
Catherine
----- Original Message -----
From: [log in to unmask]" href="mailto:[log in to unmask]" target="_blank">Colthart Heather
To: [log in to unmask]" href="mailto:[log in to unmask]" target="_blank">[log in to unmask]
Sent: Monday, August 12, 2013 10:56 AM
Subject: Re: [OCC-HEALTH] HR

Hi

 

I would contact the RCN about this issue as sharing an office means that confidentiality can easy go out of the window.

 

I have used HR offices on the day the doctor uses mine and whilst I can control/avoid making calls I can’t control the calls coming in. I have ceased using their office since the call where a client who was under section phoned me up and poured out his heart and medical details to me, whilst I was careful not to use his name and tried not to repeat information back and talked in a whisper, HR could have narrow it down to 2 people in the organisation. I am reasonable confident that not one heard as the closes person to me was in a phone conversation as well and is a very loud talker… which was the other reason why I stopped using the office, he was this persons line manager and  just as I put the phone down he shouted the clients name down the phone along with the other persons and said “I am not sure why they are all going mental the only connection I can see is I am their line manager” and laughed.

 

 

From: [log in to unmask] [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Cath
Sent: 09 August 2013 21:52
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [OCC-HEALTH] HR

 

Very interesting, I am feeling uncomfortable with my HR manager 'picking up on' the least little thing I, as the OHA, and my colleague, her assistant, do that doesn't fit with the way she wants us to be. And yet she will sit through the morning mangers meeting checking out facebook on her phone or openly reading something else, whilst everyone else is listening to what is going on, or having her music playing in the office and again being on facebook all dayon her personal phone and updating her assistant with what her friends are up to. Fortunately I  am in the office next door, not ideal as a thin partiion wall, so if a private consultaion is required I have to decamp to the first aid room under the stairs. Now she has been discussing removing the partition wall so we are all a'team' when i have just got to the stage when managers will come and talk to me spontaneously.

She blatantly, blanks me if I go into her office, but I have to stop everything, on the rare occasion she comes in to me, she 'emails me' from the room next door (glass wall she can see me) She can endlessly chat about her wedding last year, the rugby, her extension issues with the builder, and now OMG, her pregnancy, but my colleague and I are not allowed to 'chat' as it is not productive.

Surely she cannot be so shallow not to be able to see how she is behaving?????

 

Cath F

----- Original Message -----

From: [log in to unmask]" href="mailto:[log in to unmask]" target="_blank">Carr Barnes

To: [log in to unmask]" href="mailto:[log in to unmask]" target="_blank">[log in to unmask]

Sent: Friday, August 09, 2013 8:43 AM

Subject: Re: [OCC-HEALTH] HR

 

Hi Tracy

You might find this interesting especially considering that you seem to have a lot personally invested in relationship with this colleague https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9nFhs5W8o8&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Best wishes

Carr

On 9 Aug 2013 07:47, "Tracy" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

Hi. Thank you to all who have responded. I work with three HR managers and one senior. THe senior is very supportive and so I have arranged to discuss the concerns with the HR manager involved and the senior one. The other two have no issues however we do not have any policies or procedures in place. I have requested many times for this to be addressed but there was no active response to do so. The HR manager to be fair is under a lot of stress at the moment absence is high. It is hoped with calm discussions we can all plan a policy to follow which is agreed by all. I think initially I was shocked at the way I had been spoken to. It came out of the blue. The week previously I had made her wedding cake an and 100 cup cakes and delivered them 60 miles free of charge and had never previously in 2 years had any problems. On reflection and through sdiscussion especially on this site I have realised that there may be a lot ore going on which I am not aware of. I also arranged for my son to take wedding photos in the evening. As a surprise we gifted a photo book. I left this for her yesterday as I was not able to give it to her personally. I know she has recieved it but I have not recieved an acknowledgement. People have told me HRcan be funny characters at times. Guess I am learning that the hard way,!


Sent from my iPad


On 3 Aug 2013, at 07:46, sharon naylor <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

There is much news on the HR front about ETs being lost as some are courts being critical about NOT having such reports before dismissal. I have a few comments here:
 

  • From the HR perspective they are probably covering all bases (aka their backsides)
  • Therefore your objection is probably viewed as being obstructive....
  • .....but perhaps they should be clearer abour their rationale for wanting the report
  • Not likely to add any value or understanding to the case, but will be a bonus against a case of unfair dismissal
  • There is a difference between clinical need and HR backside covering, but this should be recognised and compromised on
  • Perhaps your differing perspectives (HR/OH) are promoting the conflict?
  • Unfortunately the title "Dr" carries more weight in court, thats just the way it is
  • Not sure a GP report would be much good, unless you are going to ask for copies of consultant correspondence (often cheaper)
  • My own practise is that if someone is heading the route to their P45 its normally "safer" all round to have a physician opinion, case escalated for OHP opinion (which is normally the same as mine and reports begins with " i fully concur with OHA opinion...)
  • Generally speaking most pension scheme medical advisors will want consultant report
  • I wouldnt want to be in ET (again) being cross examined, so the backside covering exercise might include mine....
  • I would have had these reports in advance of any dismissal, and would have stated in my reports that a consultants report has reinforced my view  - so not likely I would ever be "ordered" to do something like this
  • However - not sure her questions that she has ordered are the right ones, even from HR angle?
  • If I was going to write to a consultant I wouldnt want to look like a numpty - so discussion of what she actually needs rather than what she thinks she wants might be a good start
  • Surely the issue about work is recurrent absence and not longer term "fitness"?
  • What you "know" about this case is maybe based on the individuals account of what is happening rather than an objective medical statement - could be dodgy for you at a later stage, which is why I say in my reports "Mr Bloggs tells me that he is having treatment for...."
  • HR could write (with consent) to the consultant themselves if you really do object, but medical people often respond better to reports requested by other medical people - even so far as they are likely to respond better to an OHP than an OHA....sad but true
  • We need to remember that we are meant to be the objective middle (wo)man in OH, and maybe some dialogue about what you require to add value to clinical opinion and HR wanting things from a business perspective would be useful
  • There will always be conflict, but acknowledging your differing roles would be an advantage eg a clinical opinion on health as opposed to needing someone at work to contribute to the needs of the business
  • Not one to bow down to HR on many issues, but have to say that I would probably agree with the HR person based on what you have said - but it does appear that the communication from them has been a bit lacklustre


Good luck!
 
 

 

Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2013 23:12:21 +0100
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [OCC-HEALTH] HR
To: [log in to unmask]

As far as I know the tribunals want OH to have an up to date GP/ specialist report backing up any dismissals so this may be wjw she is asking for them

On 2 Aug 2013 23:03, "Tracy" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

Hi Karen. HR usually requests the reports for people she is managing out of the business due to long term sickness. I would have seen the person face to face for instance last week man with recurrent foot blisters seen by dermatologist and advised perhaps was caused be heredetary skin condition made worse by excessive sweating. He was referred for electronic treatment which may help reduce sweating and therefore hopefully reduce blisters. HR ordered me to write to the dermatologist asking three specific questions. What was the treatment. How long would it take. When would it take place and would he be fit return to work    I could answer all questions. But still she insisted a report was requested. Last week she said. Why do you need to question. Can't you just get it into your head that I need the information and do it!  She was rude and I will do more about that but first wanted to know if I was being obstructive.  Thanks Tracy

Sent from my iPad


On 2 Aug 2013, at 22:42, Karen Shields <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

Hi Tracy

 

I feel you will have an influx of messages about this one.  I come across this issue on a weekly basis.  In my opinion GP reports can often cause more conflict by requesting one than not.  The HR manager/advisor should accept your reasoning for not requiring one.  I suppose all  very dependant on the individual case - are they looking to ill health retire ?  dismiss due to capability ? or just being HR ?  If you feel you have given your best advice and feel comfortable that there are no other advice routes they can take then I would let them request it themselves and have nothing to do with it.

 

Why is the reason for them "telling you" she wants you to seek a report ?  What does she want to get out of the report ?  do you feel she will gain any further advice from the report ? or is this another case that needs managing by managers and actually not a lot to do with the OHA ?

 

Sorry if that all sounds a little negative but it is something I battle with every week.

 

Hope that helps a little Tracy, I know Anne will be here giving you some support too.

 

Karen 

> Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2013 22:32:44 +0100
> From: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: [OCC-HEALTH] HR
> To: [log in to unmask]
>
> Good evening. I am having a bit of a problem at work and as a lone practitioner I am not sure how to handle it and was looking to you all for advice please. One HR manager is telling me when she wants me to get either a GP or specialist report. Sometimes just to clarify what I have already advised. I have not had this previously and she feels I am being obstructive when I question why she should require it. Please can you give me your opinion and also when as a Specialist practitioner would you feel it was necessary to get a OHP opinion on a case. Thank you
>
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