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I think this indeed a subject worthy of debate, not least as a former student of mine who is now doing her PhD elsewhere recently asked me if I would undertake the proofreading of her thesis, which she would pay out of funding secured for the purpose from her department. Quite clearly, the university in question has a rather different attitude from Canadian universities, where students are expected to demonstrate self-editing abilities as part of their scholarly performance, in contrast to professional academics, who Mary Jane points out are not. I would qualify Margie's comment that "employers... expect students/new employees to be able to write". I would say employers expect the written product that comes from employees to be of a high standard. Setting aside for the moment the issue of confidentiality, few of them would get upset if their employees subcontracted the editing part of their job to someone else. The point is that academics can afford to do that; secretaries can't. The other point I'd raise is that most of us who work with writing tend to or wish to focus more on macro concerns than micro ones; we say that writing is about clarity of argument, effective relation to the works of others, understanding the structural and stylistic expectations of the audience, drafting, rethinking and reflecting, and so on. Few of us relish the idea that writing is really about the right preposition, the right tense and the right article in the right place. As has been mentioned before on this list, medical practitioners not only don't do their own proofreading, they even employ medical writers to write their articles for them. Engineering as a discipline , I understand, also sets little store by grammatical accuracy. I have heard of (but not read) an article by Swales that showed that grammatical (in)accuracy in engineering grant proposals does not affect the securing of funding. In English literature in contrast, we might expect grammatical accuracy and dexterity with the language to play a more important role. If a student in clinical psychology is being assessed on her ability to be a clinical psychologist, we would expect her to be assessed as to whether she can present her research clearly, coherently and in the terms and frames dictated by the community she is seeking membership of. If that community (and the university department as its proxy) believe that one of prerequisites of being a clinical psychologist is good proofreading skills, she would be wrong to subcontract that part of her work to someone else, and I or anyone else would be wrong to take it on. The best solution, I suggest, is for anyone contracted to proofread a thesis or other assignment to check with the department/university concerned that this is OK with them. Best, John >>> Margie Clow Bohan <[log in to unmask]> 13/8/13 15:09 >>> Good Morning Elizabeth and Everybody, Thank you for sending the request to us. It brings up a very important issue, one that some on the listserv may want to discuss. In Canada and elsewhere academics differ in their views on the editing of student work. At my university in Atlantic Canada, many faculty would view editing of academic material (before it is graded) as an academic offence. Students are expected to learn to write well (including the stages of writing called editing and proofreading) in English in order to graduate. When explaining the point to students who want editing, I often ask them the following question: if faculty are giving say 10% of the value of the assignment for expression of content, then if I edit, are they willing to give me 10% of their mark (or a portion of it at least)? My understanding is that these students would not have fully written the documents and should not have full value. Students, of course, are very quick to grasp "the unfairness" of my request. Whether my request would be fair or unfair is inconsequential; the question does bring the importance of editing to the discussion. Are we helping students learn to be good writers by allowing editing? Is editing of student work ethical? One further point: eventual employers in the long run, also, expect students/new employees to be able to write. That writing needs editing and co-op students or new employees do need to edit their work: businesses rarely employ editors and supervisors are not fond of fixing employees' work. Other faculty, however, take alternative views on the issue of editing. What do you think about the idea of allowing editing of academic assignments? Have a lovely summer day. Margie Margie Clow Bohan PhD Manager, Writing Centre Dalhousie University Writing Centre Room G25D Killam Library 6225 University Avenue PO Box 15000 Halifax, NS B3H 4R2 (902) 494-3379 ________________________________ From: European Association for the Teaching of Academic Writing - discussions <[log in to unmask]> on behalf of Elizabeth Harding <[log in to unmask]> Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2013 8:40 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: editing - Clinical Psychology Hello Everyone, Although I have retired from teaching Scientific Writing I still have some contact with former students who want a bit of help with this and that. Today I received an e-mail from one of my students asking if I knew a native speaker of English who would undertake the editing of 'papers and other documents produced during my PhD.' She particularly wants someone who has Clinical Psychology as an academic background and who is experienced in editing papers within this field. If anyone feels they can tackle this, please contact Aida Dias [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> kind regards Elizabeth Harding