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Hi, Just thought as I'm a graduate who is looking for work in archives and has little experience that I should give my opinion on this subject. While I totally agree that any employer has the right to advertise this sort of position it still does not make it right. No matter what the financial climate is it would appeal to very few people who simply cannot afford to do it or later afford to pay for training. If the point is to help get people into the profession then things like this will only serve to do otherwise. I do not mean this as a slight to the employer only in general. My own experience is that it is very hard for people, such as myself, to get our foot in the door even when we have a volunteer position. Not having any money to do the needed training has meant that I need to gain it while gaining the experience so I would say that Joseph Bartoletti's point about not rising up through the ranks is the reality. I believe that the only reason this debate has arisen is due to people's growing frustration and the ever increasing evidence of the affect it is having on the profession. I feel that the argument is led by some views that are formed from half the story and that perhaps the very people who want to work within archives and records management should be asked for their opinions. My own opinion is that the people who want to work in the area are being prevented by all sorts of barriers, including the financial ones, and that this is the issue that should be addressed. Perhaps if everyone within archives and records management want the profession to thrive and continue doing so this is what they should do. Alison Sampson History Graduate and Greenwich Heritage Centre Volunteer On Thu, Aug 15, 2013 at 9:02 AM, Meic Pierce Owen <[log in to unmask]>wrote: > I understand the argument being put up against this unpaid internship > being offered. I understand it but I do not agree with it. > > To offer an internship on its own terms is surely the business of the body > offering the internship? Equally, if someone wishes to take it up, that is > surely that person's business? If it does not suit anyone, the offer will > not be taken up. It is a classic case of 'let the market decide'. If this > sort of opportunity were the only sort on offer it would be one thing, but > as it is not, I suggest we climb off our high horses and allow people to > offer and accept as suits them. > > I strongly agree that, as a profession, we need to do what we can to > ensure that those at all levels earn a living wage and indeed, those of us > around before the millennium will remember the appalling salaries being > offered to recently-qualifieds before the then SOA put its foot down (I > believe) and refused to take adverts offering under particular salary rates. > > I further think we should be pleased both that so many are looking to > enter the Profession and that pre-course positions are available. > > We cannot however, get involved in the business of trying to impose quotas > on academic institutions. If people wish to study, who are we to say no?- > just so long as we are not giving a false impression to people as to the > numbers of jobs available. > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Archivists, conservators and records managers. [mailto: > [log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Pamela Birch > Sent: 15 August 2013 08:05 > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: Vacancy for Archives and Records Management Intern, Solutions > > Bedford BC Not Protectively Marked. > > > Thanks Joseph, you summed up my feelings on this nicely. > > > > Having spent this year looking at the history of Bedfordshire Record > Office I would also point out that it was an 'independently wealthy, well > intentioned, do-gooder' who managed to kick start the profession of > archivist (in local government terms at least) 100 years ago by founding a > county record office and providing on the job training, something he > continued to do until his death in 1940. > > > > Pamela Birch > Conservator/Premises & Projects Officer > > Bedfordshire & Luton Archives & Records Service > 800 years of history, 100 years of service. Centenary 2013. Help us > celebrate www.bedford.gov.uk/archivecentenary > <http://www.bedford.gov.uk/archivecentenary> > > Open: Mon 9am-7pm, Tues, Wed & Fri 9am-5pm. Closed Thursday. > Tel: 01234 228908 (direct line) 01234 228833 (main office) > www.bedfordshire.gov.uk/archive Twitter @BedsArchives > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Archivists, conservators and records managers. > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Joseph Bartoletti > Sent: 14 August 2013 18:09 > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: Vacancy for Archives and Records Management Intern, Solutions > > > > > I feel compelled to offer another side to this debate. Since this argument > is continually used again and again, can someone tell me what profession > enforces a quota on University placements? I'm going to have to say none. > At the end of the day Universities are in the business of teaching and > academia, nothing more. While they may have some indirect concern with the > number of graduates employed six months after graduation (looks good in > stats) they are not there to rig the job market. If they have turned out > more quality candidates than the market can accept, well bad for some of > the graduates but good for the profession. > > Also, 'independently wealthy, well intentioned, do-gooders' are not a new > incarnation due to the current economic climate. They were in fact the > cornerstones for much of the museum profession. > > Some direct points to Craig's 'simple solutions'. > > 1. Decide on a set number of students to be admitted to the > archive schools each year. Any archives school that admits more than their > quota should lose their accreditation. > Again, this has been stated over and over in the past. State > exactly how this should be done accurately. Continually monitor the job > market for anyone retiring or changing professions? Adequately gauging this > year after year is not pragmatic. Again, the job of the Universities is to > turn out qualified suitable candidates. Every degree / profession have > people who for whatever reason go into another field and there are more > people who work in fields different to their degrees than those that do. I > spent eight months unemployed shortly after finishing my course and never > once did I blame the number of graduates. > I had many near misses and always lost out to experience. Certainly not > the Uni's fault. > 2. Legally define and protect the term 'archivist'. Define the > term to mean someone who has a recognised qualification from one of the > archive schools. > Not possible and nor should it be. Even if it was, then what? > Maybe instead of the term 'archivist' organizations will just use titles > like 'Keepers of Old Info and Stuff'. Plus what about all those > professionals who do not have a degree and have done WAY more for the > profession than most with the piece of paper? I guess there's no room > anymore for anyone rising up through the ranks of the profession without a > degree. > 3. Legally require all organisations subject to Section 46 - > Freedom of Information Act to employ an archivist. > You're leaving out people who have specifically done records > management degrees. > 4. The ICO should produce guidelines strongly advising the > retention of a qualified archivist in the role of an organisations > designated Data Protection Officer. > Why? What does the qualification of archivist bring to this role? > I am a qualified archivist (so my piece of paper tells me) and have a BCS > Cert in DPA. I do not agree that having the former was a huge factor in > earning the latter. If any argument can be made it is that the role should > be taken on by someone with a degree in law not archives management. > > Maybe people should stop blaming the Universities and move on to > something more productive? Society has gone information mad, and so there > should be no shortage of opportunities. We need to better fight the > information profession's corner and prove its worth. > > A good example is when a coursemate applied for a job at a school. > The job advert screamed 'Archivist', but the title was far from that. Not > one of the candidates who landed an interview had any experience or > qualification in archives. I'm sure many more have stories similar, and > while I know I don't have the answers, I do know that 'excessive' amounts > of graduates is not the problem. > > It should go without saying that the views express are entirely my > own and not my employer's. > > > Sincerely, > > Joseph Bartoletti > Corporate Records Management Officer > > Legal and Democratic Services > > ________________________________ > > Any opinions or statements expressed in this e-mail are those of the > individual and not necessarily those of Middlesbrough Council. Internet > communications are not secure and therefore Middlesbrough Council does not > accept legal responsibility for the contents of this message as it has been > transmitted over a public network. 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