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Early on our MOOC we needed a picture of William the Conqueror.

The best we could find was from the national portrait gallery who make some of their pictures available BY-NC-SA

I don't consider a MOOC to be non-commercial. Marketing is a commercial activity, even for a charity.

I called the NPG and they considered a MOOC to be commercial and so we couldn't use that content. We bid them well and I went off and found an alternative.

The problem with NC, SA and ND as terms is that you can have your definition and the content creator has their own.

I don't feel charitable status is akin to non-commercial and I don't think that'd hold in court. Eton is a charity and there are a fair few charities which just exist for the purpose of dodging tax.

People should approach the license in the spirit in which the content holder intended it to be. If in doubt, don't use. To play fast and loose with the definition of commercial seems to me to  mock the content holder, and to be an act contrary to the spirit of sharing.

On 24 Jul 2013, at 11:38, Andy Powell <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

Which seems to boil down to the following statement…

 

Don’t bother using NC… and even if you do use NC it probably won’t stop other people doing what you wanted to try and stop them doing anyway (and, in any case, that thing you’re trying to stop them doing isn’t really so bad)

 

??

 

I love boiling things down almost as much as I love Bath Ales and Katy Perry.

 

Andy Powell

Head of Product Research

 

Eduserv
[log in to unmask] | 01225 474 319 | 07989 476 710

www.eduserv.org.uk | @andypowe11 | blog.eduserv.org.uk | LinkedIn

Eduserv is a company limited by guarantee (registered in England & Wales, company number: 3763109) and a charity (charity number 1079456), whose registered office is at Royal Mead, Railway Place, Bath, BA1 1SR.

From: Open Educational Resources [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of David Kernohan
Sent: 24 July 2013 10:58
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Use of CC NC licences within UK F/HE - can we reach consensus?

 

I’d agree with Simon that NC isn’t the loveliest of CC licenses – indeed, this is why we advised people to avoid NC if possible during the majority of the UKOER problem. Creative Commons themselves do not appear to be entirely sure what “NC” actually means, and I would find it difficult to imagine why anyone would want to use a license that was not fully understood by those who designed it.

 

But assuming a consensus position of “NC = don’t use this stuff to make yourself money” – the continued absence of anything approaching a sustainable MOOC business model suggests that one thing F/L, Coursera et al would not be able to do with our NC resources is make money off the back of them.

 

I don’t see anything in the license terms forbidding a MOOC enterprise using a NC-licensed material – indeed, with the proper attribution I’m sure one would get it could be a means of getting your resources in front of thousands of people who wouldn’t otherwise have seen it.

 

If you felt so outraged about large MOOC providers that you slammed down your copy of the Guardian, drained your soy frappuchino and wanted to send a slightly passive aggressive email on your iPhone5 you may want to assert your Moral Rights as author to have the resource removed from the MOOC course, rather than try and work out what NC meant. I love Moral Rights, nearly as much as I love the Wild Brewing Company and the Spice Girls.

 

That’s my two-pennorth anyway.

 

David

(personal views only, not those of Jisc)

--

David Kernohan, eLearning Innovation Team, Jisc

[log in to unmask]

@dkernohan/@ukoer

 

From: Open Educational Resources [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Thomson, Simon
Sent: 24 July 2013 10:27
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Use of CC NC licences within UK F/HE - can we reach consensus?

 

My two penneth:

 

Can we argue to legitimately use NC in "education"? - Yes probably, considering the charitable status aspect.

 

Should we be using NC? - Morally no. I think that we should avoid using NC content wherever possible in order to promote a morally acceptable stance on open content.

 

If you really need to use some NC content then you could always contact the copyright owner for clarification? (I know it partially defeats the object of CC licenses but if you want a clear conscience it's potentially the only way).

 

Simon

 

 

 

From: Open Educational Resources [[log in to unmask]] on behalf of Thomas, Amber [[log in to unmask]]
Sent: 24 July 2013 10:18
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Use of CC NC licences within UK F/HE - can we reach consensus?

Thanks all

 

My view on the table then:

 

universities should not reuse third party materials with the CC NC clause in the courses they put on MOOC platforms.

 

This is only an edge case, but I think it’s an important one in the ecosystem of open licenced materials in open courses.

The risk of being challenged is very low, so my advice to my own colleagues is not because I’m risk averse.

If we don’t distinguish between the CC clauses in our advice to people, the clauses turn to mush.

 

That’s my view. I reserve the right to change my mind, but that’s how things look to me.

 

 

Additional question coming up to do with a different clause, actually!

 

 

From: Open Educational Resources [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of B.Attwell
Sent: 24 July 2013 09:47
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Use of CC NC licences within UK F/HE - can we reach consensus?

 

I agree whole heartedly with Jason and  I think those that ‘rely’ on clarity all of the time are not the people who should be charged with making decisions on taking their businesses (whatever they are) forward.  There is no such thing as zero risk and those that seek it or rely on it hold up progress.  Informed decisions fine, deciding on an acceptable level of risk fine;  requiring 100% clarity before making a decision?  – no such thing.

 

Cheers Bernie

 

 

 

From: Jason Miles-Campbell [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: 24 July 2013 09:33
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Use of CC NC licences within UK F/HE - can we reach consensus?

 

“Clarity would be good.”

 

Clarity is one of my favourite things.  Along with whisky, and Girls Aloud.  However, it needs to be clear that decisions as to interpretation will also depend on appetite for risk.  Long live those who push the boundaries, and may they sometimes reap rewards by doing so.  For others, the safe path is preferred.  Users deciding on NC limits need to be able to make informed choices as to risk, and I think that’s going to be as big an issue as finding areas of ‘certainty’.


Cheers,
Jason

 

From: Open Educational Resources [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Thomas, Amber
Sent: 24 July 2013 09:26
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Use of CC NC licences within UK F/HE - can we reach consensus?

 

Hi All

 

The thing I'd welcome clarification on is how the provision of free content can be part of a business model, I think this relates to Tony's point.

 

The MOOC scenario could be the opposite of the Oxfam scenario ...

Oxfam has a profit making subfunction that subsidises the meta charitable aims.

What if a MOOC platform provider has a free subfunction that enables the meta profit-making aims?

 

I'm not asking whether the MOOC provider is ethical/good/right or not. I’m asking whether in good faith, the university can use third party content licenced as CC NC under that scenario?

I think not. Clarity would be good.

 

If the free course = subfunction of a profit-making objective, then the options for CC licenced content in MOOCs reduce.

That might be fine and sensible.

But as others have said on this thread, understanding OERs in relation to MOOCs is important in terms of the ethos of our decisions. The distinction matters to folk like us, even if not to the big scheme of things.

 

In particular, I'm still not sure I understand the pay-with-your-data aspect of MOOCs. If MOOC platform providers  are building business models out of data, how does the NC clause work?

 

 

Amber

 

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Open Educational Resources [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Tony.Hirst
Sent: 23 July 2013 17:18
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Use of CC NC licences within UK F/HE - can we reach consensus?

 

Couldn't I set up a MOOC platform with a non-profit company (MOOCPlat Ltd, eg as a not-for-profit company limited  by guarantee) and a commercial assessment company MOOCass Ltd, and then offer OERs through MOOCplat in a non-discriminatory way for free-in-exchange-for-registration, then commercially sell assessment related to the course through MOOCass?

 

Notwithstanding a lack of case law, I'm sure the lawyers could figure out a CC license accommodating equivalent of a double Irish with a Dutch sandwich?

 

 

________________________________________

Tony Hirst

Personal blog: blog.ouseful.info

 

Tel/SMS: +44 (0) 1908 652789

Lecturer in Telematics

Dept of Communication and Systems

The Open University

Milton Keynes, MK7 6AA, UK

________________________________________

From: Jason Miles-Campbell [[log in to unmask]]

Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2013 5:13 PM

To: [log in to unmask]

Subject: Re: Use of CC NC licences within UK F/HE - can we reach consensus?

 

Charitable status certainly doesn't guarantee "non-commercial", however.  For example, an organisation might raise a surplus through commercial trade in order to fulfil charitable purposes - Oxfam shops, perhaps?

 

 

Cheers,

Jason

Jason Miles-Campbell | Manager | Jisc Legal | T 0141 548 2889  | E [log in to unmask]" target="_blank"> [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>

Jisc Legal,  a Jisc Advance service, is hosted by the University of Strathclyde, a charitable body, registered in Scotland, with registration number SC015263

 

 

 

 

 

> -----Original Message-----

 

> From: Open Educational Resources [mailto:[log in to unmask]]

 

> On Behalf Of Lorna Campbell

 

> Sent: 23 July 2013 17:08

 

> To: [log in to unmask]

 

> Subject: Re: Use of CC NC licences within UK F/HE - can we reach consensus?

 

> 

 

> Hi Tony,

 

> 

 

> That's an interesting point regarding universities charitable status.  Is that not

 

> changing though?

 

> 

 

> Cheers

 

> Lorna

 

> 

 

> On 23 Jul 2013, at 16:54, T.Coughlan wrote:

 

> 

 

> Hi Nick,

 

> "We're still public sector of course" - but as most UK universities are charities,

 

> isn't there an equal argument for saying we're third sector?

 

> 

 

> Charitable status and NC seem to me to be happy bedfellows. We play by the

 

> rules of charitable status (more or less), so why shouldn't NC be included as

 

> part of the package?

 

> 

 

> Lorna - yes, it's a good idea to air these issues!

 

> 

 

> Tony

 

> 

 

> 

 

> -----Original Message-----

 

> From: Sheppard, Nick [mailto:[log in to unmask]]

 

> Sent: 23 July 2013 16:42

 

> To: [log in to unmask]" target="_blank"> [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>

 

> Subject: Re: Use of CC NC licences within UK F/HE - can we reach consensus?

 

> 

 

> I think many folk in HE have a knee jerk reaction to NC and become

 

> apoplectic at the thought of the grubby commercial sector using our OER for

 

> commercial gain! (We're still public sector of course :-!)

 

> 

 

> I probably shared that view myself not so long ago but would now argue for

 

> the lowest barrier licensing possible.

 

> 

 

> I'm not sure I'm clever or politically literate enough to think through the

 

> implications but I've have similarly lively discussions on twitter around the

 

> neo-liberal agenda that has contributed to normalising CC-BY for research

 

> such that it can be mandated by RCUK (to much teeth gnashing of course.)

 

> 

 

> Nick

 

> 

 

> 

 

> 

 

> -----Original Message-----

 

> From: Open Educational Resources [mailto:[log in to unmask]]

 

> On Behalf Of Lorna Campbell

 

> Sent: 23 July 2013 16:29

 

> To: [log in to unmask]" target="_blank"> [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>

 

> Subject: Use of CC NC licences within UK F/HE - can we reach consensus?

 

> 

 

> Hi there,

 

> 

 

> Earlier today there was a short but lively discussion on twitter about the pros,

 

> cons and ambiguities of using the CC NC licence in academic contexts.   I'm

 

> sure many of your will be aware of the complex issues that this raises,

 

> particularly with regard to whether or not education is regarded as a

 

> commercial activity.  If anything, these issues have become more pressing

 

> with the advent of commercial MOOC providers such as FutureLearn.   Trying

 

> to define "commercial" "non-commercial" and even "education" in global

 

> terms is a difficult task if not impossible task, however our twitter discussion

 

> this morning led David Kernohan to ask if it might be possible to define what

 

> these terms mean within the context of our own community, i.e. UK F/HE.

 

> So what do you think, is there any mileage in trying to agree how and in what

 

> context the CC NC licence can be used appropriately within UK Higher and

 

> Further Education?  What are the chances of us being able to reach a

 

> consensus?  Would it be useful just to air the issues?   Let us know what you

 

> think!

 

> 

 

> Cheers

 

> Lorna

 

> 

 

> --

 

> Lorna M. Campbell

 

> CETIS Assistant Director

 

> Email:

 

> l<mailto:[log in to unmask]>[log in to unmask]" target="_blank">[log in to unmask]<mailto:orna.m.ca<mailto:[log in to unmask]:[log in to unmask]>

 

> [log in to unmask]:[log in to unmask]" target="_blank"> [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]:[log in to unmask]>>

 

> Skype: lorna120768

 

> 

 

> 

 

> To view the terms under which this email is distributed, please go to

 

> http://disclaimer.leedsmet.ac.uk/email.htm

 

> -- The Open University is incorporated by Royal Charter (RC 000391), an

 

> exempt charity in England & Wales and a charity registered in Scotland (SC

 

> 038302).

 

> 

 

> --

 

> Lorna M. Campbell

 

> JISC CETIS Assistant Director

 

> University of Strathclyde

 

> Glasgow

 

> Email: [log in to unmask]:[log in to unmask]:[log in to unmask]" target="_blank"> [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]:[log in to unmask]>>

 

> Phone: +44141 548 3072

 

> Skype: lorna120768

 

> 

 

> The University of Strathclyde is a charitable body, registered in Scotland,

 

> number SC015263.

 

-- The Open University is incorporated by Royal Charter (RC 000391), an exempt charity in England & Wales and a charity registered in Scotland (SC 038302).

 

 

To view the terms under which this email is distributed, please go to http://disclaimer.leedsmet.ac.uk/email.htm