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Hi Seamas. - I can't do the accent on this pesky device. As someone who may have contributed to and prolonged some of the discussions you have every right to object to, I feel I'm in a weak place to oppose what you say, but however badly some have been conducted I still see this as place where it's appropriate for discussion to take place. Alison puts this sense that art and criticism shouldn't have to be inimical activities better than I can, so I'd only add that the nineteenth century might offer some powerful counter-arguments (I'm just reading Baudelaire's art and other criticism at the moment, and it seems very much a part of his artistic activity). Of course no-one needs to articulate any ideas about the art in order to pursue it. Having enjoyed the privilege of several collaborative ventures with music, sculpture, painting, science and theatre, I still don't consider them necessary, or even necessarily signal adjuncts to poetry. With best wishes, Jamie Sent using BlackBerry® from Orange -----Original Message----- From: Séamas Cain <[log in to unmask]> Sender: British & Irish poets <[log in to unmask]> Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2013 13:23:44 To: <[log in to unmask]> Reply-To: British & Irish poets <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: mr lace Alec, and other British & Irish poets, I just checked the name "David Lace," as author, in both Copac and WorldCat, the largest library cataloguing databases in the world. I could find NO poet and NO creative writer of any kind by this name in either database. (I did find one author by this name in Ohio; but he writes nothing but sports-related local history.) I do grow increasingly tired of contrived debates and "discussions" on this list. Invariably these "discussions" collapse into nothing but name-calling and insult, manipulation, or mere superficiality. I find it quite sad if not embarrassing as Geraldine (once again) is forced to defend herself against yet another verbal bully. I see little benefit to any list (of any type) in repeated experiences of this verbal bullying by alpha-males who want everyone to know that they have THE correct notions regarding EVERY literary possibility, and no other ideas will be tolerated. THE COMPLAINTS : 1.) The list has "changed." Well, yes, doesn't everything change? Some people, though, are really "with it" and have "moved on" to Facebook, Twitter, LinkedIn, etc., etc. Yes, well, do as you think best. What do I care what you do? Personally, I think Twitter, Facebook et al are unbelievably shallow. 2.) I have always been amazed by the degree to which most poets, artists, composers, novelists, etc., etc., would rather be ART CRITICS than poets, artists, composers, etc. And thus, from time to time, everywhere we end up with these odd and contrived "discussions." Usually, such "art criticism" is vulgar, élitist, boorish, and stupid. It is our DUTY as artists to DO art, to MAKE art. We should leave to the future the determination of what art has been most meaningful, what art has been important or lasting. (Indeed, I think it would be preposterous and goofy to do otherwise.) In furthering this idea, an artist might make a practical approach to an e-list. Does that e-list introduce the artist to new work, new kinds of work, new art possibilities in the world? Does that e-list stimulate networking and collaborative activities on the part of more than a few people who are on the list? Does that e-list provide tangible opportunities for more than a few people to really produce art? Or, does that e-list offer nothing but contrived "discussions" and the notion that only a certain in-group have all the right ideas? 3.) A couple of years ago I purchased a book by p.inman, published by "if p then q" in England and first ANNOUNCED on this list. I found myself reading this book again over last weekend. I was very happy to encounter the poetry of p.inman, and this very poetry opened doors for me to other kinds of writing that I previously knew nothing about. So, a number of self-appointed élitists are condemning the idea of "ads" on this list. (I call them "announcements.") Well, I for one wish we had MORE announcements on this list. I would like to know much more about what each and every micro-press in Britain and Ireland is publishing. I WOULD like to be introduced to new work and new kinds of work. But the contrived "discussions" on aesthetics, sincerely I could do without. 4.) Please examine the last Section (the list of works) in the MIT anthology of the works of Ian Hamilton Finlay. Please observe the lengthy sub-section list of collaborations. So, who on this e-list today has such a number of collaborations? In the U.S. I could point to John M. Bennett, Sheila E. Murphy, and others, whose variety and number of collaborations far EXCEEDS the count up for IHF. But where are such collaborations in Britain or Ireland today? Now, of course, collaborative artistry would be impossible in any social context where fundamental disrespect of others is routinely tolerated if not encouraged by an élite. 5.) Notions of literary in-group, literary élite, are so decidedly Nineteenth Century. And the literary or aesthetic élites of the Nineteenth Century were such obvious flops in their own time. Therefore, I see little reason to encourage ANY exclusionary in-group today. Finally, in conclusion, perhaps the rank-and-file of this e-list might contemplate a few new Rules and Regulations FOR the non-moderator Moderators of this list, especially as concerns contrived debates or "discussions." Sincerely, Séamas Cain http://www.priosma.net ___________________ On Sun, Jul 21, 2013 at 12:17 PM, Alec Newman <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > What has David Lace published, or curated? I can't place him. > > Alec. > >> Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2013 18:13:48 +0100 >> From: [log in to unmask] >> Subject: mr lace >> To: [log in to unmask] > >> >> I've deleted David Lace's subscription to the British and Irish Poetry >> discussion list. >> >> best wishes >> >> Randolph