More relevant part of the yougov poll to the discussion here:
"In the past few days, news reports suggest that British security services have had access to records kept by US intelligence services about British citizens’ online activity, even though the US agencies might have gained this information in ways that are currently illegal in Britain. If this information is correct, are you…
Pleased that the UK security services are getting information that might help them track down criminals and terrorists – 46%
Sorry that the UK agencies might be getting round British law to undermine our right to privacy – 39%
Don’t know – 15%
Once again, the public is divided, with slightly more people pleased rather than sorry.
Finally, we posed one dilemma that some people think is hypothetical but others believe to be all too real – whether security agencies should operate completely within the law at all times, or whether advances in technology mean that they should able, as some might put it, to do their work without one arm tied behind their backs.
If you had to choose between these two options, which would you prefer?
Britain’s police and security agencies should respect both our right to privacy and the right of Parliament to decide these matters; they should always obey the law – 45%
Britain’s police and security agencies must keep up with technology, if necessary going beyond the law in order to obtain information that help them fight serious crime and terrorism – 42%
Not sure – 13% "
Kellner's summary:
"So there is no majority for insisting on the rule of law – but neither do most people back GCHQ, MI5 or MI6 taking the law into their own hands. It is a moot point whether we should be reassured or appalled by the fact that law-breaking is backed four out of ten Britons. If the proportion is regarded as alarmingly high, this may reflect the fact that politicians and Parliament these days are held in such low regard."
Paul Ashton
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Ashton" <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Monday, 10 June, 2013 6:10:24 PM
Subject: Re: Message from JISCMail Helpline: lists with public archives
Yougov poll just released in the wake of the Prism revelations:
"It has been suggested that the law should be changed to give police and security services access the records kept by mobile phone and internet service provider companies. These would include individuals’ web browsing, email and social media activity, though not the content of emails or social messages. In principle do you think this proposal...
Goes too far: it undermines our right to privacy - 38%
Is a good idea, given the way technology is evolving - 43%
Does not go far enough: the police and security services should also access to the content of emails and social messages - 8%
Don't know - 11% "
Kellner summarises:
"Thus 51% either back the main thrust of the bill, or would like to go even further, as opposed to the 38% who think the powers proposed by the Bill go too far. Women divide almost two-to-one (55-30%), while men divide almost exactly evenly (48-46%)."
Paul Ashton
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Moore" <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Monday, 10 June, 2013 5:50:33 PM
Subject: Re: Message from JISCMail Helpline: lists with public archives
My understanding is that encryption is only absolutely secure if you have an early version of a Public Key Encryption program. After a certain date the US government ruled that PGP (for example) could not be exported unless it was in theory crackable by the NSA. So these programs were covered by the export of munitions legislation in the USA. There has been some to-ing and fro-ing over this , so I'm not sure what the current state of the US law is. PGP has been improved over the years and some loopholes plugged (so much for earlier versions), but I don't think it would be exportable from the USA if there wasn't some way into it for the NSA. The NSA might, for example, require a trap-door into any strong encryption program - I just don't know. The original restriction was on the length of the key.
In theory this stuff can not be decrypted with contemporary technology. But the use of the world's most powerful computers to crack routine private encrypted traffic would be an enormous waste of resources - much easier for the spooks to secrete a key-logger in your PC and read the plain text! Also if you use one of the Public key programs in the UK, under RIPA you can be required to disclose your key - and it would be a criminal offence then to tell anyone that this had happened.
One Time Pad probably guarantees total security, providing you do it by hand and not on a PC. But unless you're a 'rogue state' or a known target then it would all be a waste of your time.
But if you just want to protect some data, maybe names and addresses of respondents - go ahead.
The following is interesting:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pretty_Good_Privacy
Robert
Professor Robert Moore
School of Sociology and Social Policy
Eleanor Rathbone Building
The University of Liverpool
L69 7ZA
Telephone and fax: 44 (0) 1352 714456
________________________________________
From: email list for Radical Statistics [[log in to unmask]] on behalf of the.Duke.of.URL [[log in to unmask]]
Sent: 10 June 2013 16:38
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Message from JISCMail Helpline: lists with public archives
How to keep others from spying on you.
http://www.businessinsider.com/how-keep-the-feds-from-listening-2013-6
Public key encryption is the only really safe way to communicate these
days but it is a terrific hassle and for most people isn't worth it. Of
course, if you are going to use this technique, you will have to choose
two very large prime numbers to begin with. It goes without saying I
think that unless everyone does this at about the same time, anyone
doing this will immediately become a target.
Larry
------ Original Message ------
From: "Wells, Julian" <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: 10/06/2013 15:11:38
Subject: Re: Message from JISCMail Helpline: lists with public archives
>I'm in favour of keeping the RADSTATS archive open, for the following
>reasons:
>
>(1) as others have pointed out, if GCHQ or the CIA want to read them,
>JISCmail's privacy settings are unlikely to prove an obstacle.
>
>(2) it's a public discussion list, which anyone can subscribe
>themselves
>to, so the discussions ought to be a matter of public record.
>
>Best wishes,
>
>Julian
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>On 10/06/2013 13:49, "Macfarlane, Alison" <[log in to unmask]>
>wrote:
>
>>Please see the bottom email in the trail. This came from jiscmail last
>>week. Another email list I look after was keen to be private, but its
>>members are in a different situation from Radstats. So far we have
>>heard
>>from very few members, but these include people who have replied
>>several
>>times.
>>
>>If no one has replied by the end of today to say they want it kept
>>private, I will change it back.
>>
>>Best wishes, Alison
>>
>>Alison
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Humphrey Southall [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
>>Sent: 10 June 2013 13:35
>>To: [log in to unmask]
>>Subject: Re: Message from JISCMail Helpline: lists with public
>>archives
>>
>>I am trying to get my head round this change:
>>
>>Given that JISCmail is funded entirely by the UK government via JISC,
>>a
>>government agency, and hosted on servers at the University of
>>Newcastle
>>in the UK. it is hard to see how another UK government agency, GCHQ,
>>needs assistance from a US company to eavesdrop on our discussions
>>....
>>
>>Conversely, it is not hard to see how there is public access to
>>Google's
>>indices -- and there are other search engines.
>>
>>I agree there should be a vote on re-opening the list archive, as they
>>are now closed, presumably as a result of Alison changing the setting
>>(I
>>just checked). I suppose there should also be a vote on moving it to
>>an
>>encrypted server somewhere outside the control of the UK and US
>>governments, if people are seriously concerned about who can access
>>it;
>>but having them on a UK-government funded server but closing them to
>>stop
>>GCHQ seeing them doesn't make any sense.
>>
>>Best wishes,
>>
>>Humphrey
>>
>>On 10 Jun 2013, at 12:42, Paul Ashton <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>
>>> To discover the majority view, wouldn't it be necessary to poll
>>>members?
>>>
>>> Paul Ashton
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Alison Macfarlane" <[log in to unmask]>
>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>> Sent: Monday, 10 June, 2013 12:32:34 PM
>>> Subject: Re: Message from JISCMail Helpline: lists with public
>>> archives
>>>
>>> It's debatable whether Google /GCHQ make their booty public, though,
>>>isn't it? Having said that, if there is a majority which wants the
>>>setting changed back to public, this is easily done.
>>>
>>> Alison
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Paul Ashton [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
>>> Sent: 10 June 2013 12:20
>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>> Subject: Re: Message from JISCMail Helpline: lists with public
>>> archives
>>>
>>> It's ironic, if not actually amusing, that academics who constantly
>>>demand that we have 'open government' and transparent dealings from
>>>various organisations and companies should now be hiding themselves
>>>from
>>>public gaze.
>>>
>>> Paul Ashton
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Alison Macfarlane" <[log in to unmask]>
>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>> Sent: Monday, 10 June, 2013 11:39:35 AM
>>> Subject: FW: Message from JISCMail Helpline: lists with public
>>> archives
>>>
>>> Following the warnings sent out by jiscmail last week, I have gone
>>>through the lists of which I am listowner and changed the
>>>configuration
>>>of archives from public to private. This means that list archives can
>>>only be viewed by members and not by whoever is in league with google
>>>and its cronies.
>>>
>>> Please let me know if this causes any problems.
>>>
>>> Alison Macfarlane
>>>
>>>
>>> Subject: Message from JISCMail Helpline: lists with public archives
>>>
>>> Dear subscribers
>>>
>>> We've had a lot of queries recently about the availability and
>>>visibility of JISCMail list archives in Google.
>>>
>>> This is just a reminder that messages sent to a list with public
>>>archives will be available to anyone on the internet.
>>>
>>> Your email will not be visible to non-subscribers, but remember if
>>>you
>>>reply to the list there may be information in your message which will
>>>be
>>>visible, such as your signature or attachments.
>>>
>>> This list is configured with public archives.
>>>
>>> JISCMail public list data has been available to search engines for
>>>many
>>>years. List owners choose whether their archives are public or
>>>private,
>>>so if you have any queries about whether a list should have public
>>>archives, then contact the list owner (see
>>>http://bit.ly/ContactListOwner for details).
>>>
>>> Public list archives are an important and useful source of
>>>information
>>>to the communities that we support, they enable wider collaboration
>>>across educational research, learning, teaching and support networks
>>>and
>>>encourage new members.
>>>
>>> We hope this makes the situation clearer.
>>>
>>>
>>> Lisa
>>>
>>> --
>>> Lisa Vincent
>>>
>>> Operations Manager
>>> [log in to unmask]
>>> 0191 222 8179
>>>
>>> JISCMail is a JISC Advance Service
>>>
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