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I agree with Julian. The NSA wants to know everything about everyone, and only government policy can contain them. In a number of respects, the US has become a security surveillance state. Snowden has possibly sacrificed himself for nothing as far as many US citizens are concerned. Snowden is right about the increasing computing capacity and storage increasing by many orders of magnitude each year. It is worthy of some note that Snowden has some support on the far right, who of course will see this as one of the many dangers of big government. The first link contains an interview of Snowden by Glenn Greenwald. It is worth watching. http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2013/06/edward-snowden-makes-himself-an-even-bigger-problem-to-the-officialdom.html http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/jurisprudence/2013/06/nsa_s_prism_program_the_government_s_surveillance_will_lead_to_an_abuse.html larry ------ Original Message ------ From: "Wells, Julian" <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Sent: 10/06/2013 15:11:38 Subject: Re: Message from JISCMail Helpline: lists with public archives >I'm in favour of keeping the RADSTATS archive open, for the following >reasons: > >(1) as others have pointed out, if GCHQ or the CIA want to read them, >JISCmail's privacy settings are unlikely to prove an obstacle. > >(2) it's a public discussion list, which anyone can subscribe >themselves >to, so the discussions ought to be a matter of public record. > >Best wishes, > >Julian > > > > > > > >On 10/06/2013 13:49, "Macfarlane, Alison" <[log in to unmask]> >wrote: > >>Please see the bottom email in the trail. This came from jiscmail last >>week. Another email list I look after was keen to be private, but its >>members are in a different situation from Radstats. So far we have >>heard >>from very few members, but these include people who have replied >>several >>times. >> >>If no one has replied by the end of today to say they want it kept >>private, I will change it back. >> >>Best wishes, Alison >> >>Alison >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Humphrey Southall [mailto:[log in to unmask]] >>Sent: 10 June 2013 13:35 >>To: [log in to unmask] >>Subject: Re: Message from JISCMail Helpline: lists with public >>archives >> >>I am trying to get my head round this change: >> >>Given that JISCmail is funded entirely by the UK government via JISC, >>a >>government agency, and hosted on servers at the University of >>Newcastle >>in the UK. it is hard to see how another UK government agency, GCHQ, >>needs assistance from a US company to eavesdrop on our discussions >>.... >> >>Conversely, it is not hard to see how there is public access to >>Google's >>indices -- and there are other search engines. >> >>I agree there should be a vote on re-opening the list archive, as they >>are now closed, presumably as a result of Alison changing the setting >>(I >>just checked). I suppose there should also be a vote on moving it to >>an >>encrypted server somewhere outside the control of the UK and US >>governments, if people are seriously concerned about who can access >>it; >>but having them on a UK-government funded server but closing them to >>stop >>GCHQ seeing them doesn't make any sense. >> >>Best wishes, >> >>Humphrey >> >>On 10 Jun 2013, at 12:42, Paul Ashton <[log in to unmask]> wrote: >> >>> To discover the majority view, wouldn't it be necessary to poll >>>members? >>> >>> Paul Ashton >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Alison Macfarlane" <[log in to unmask]> >>> To: [log in to unmask] >>> Sent: Monday, 10 June, 2013 12:32:34 PM >>> Subject: Re: Message from JISCMail Helpline: lists with public >>> archives >>> >>> It's debatable whether Google /GCHQ make their booty public, though, >>>isn't it? Having said that, if there is a majority which wants the >>>setting changed back to public, this is easily done. >>> >>> Alison >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Paul Ashton [mailto:[log in to unmask]] >>> Sent: 10 June 2013 12:20 >>> To: [log in to unmask] >>> Subject: Re: Message from JISCMail Helpline: lists with public >>> archives >>> >>> It's ironic, if not actually amusing, that academics who constantly >>>demand that we have 'open government' and transparent dealings from >>>various organisations and companies should now be hiding themselves >>>from >>>public gaze. >>> >>> Paul Ashton >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Alison Macfarlane" <[log in to unmask]> >>> To: [log in to unmask] >>> Sent: Monday, 10 June, 2013 11:39:35 AM >>> Subject: FW: Message from JISCMail Helpline: lists with public >>> archives >>> >>> Following the warnings sent out by jiscmail last week, I have gone >>>through the lists of which I am listowner and changed the >>>configuration >>>of archives from public to private. This means that list archives can >>>only be viewed by members and not by whoever is in league with google >>>and its cronies. >>> >>> Please let me know if this causes any problems. >>> >>> Alison Macfarlane >>> >>> >>> Subject: Message from JISCMail Helpline: lists with public archives >>> >>> Dear subscribers >>> >>> We've had a lot of queries recently about the availability and >>>visibility of JISCMail list archives in Google. >>> >>> This is just a reminder that messages sent to a list with public >>>archives will be available to anyone on the internet. >>> >>> Your email will not be visible to non-subscribers, but remember if >>>you >>>reply to the list there may be information in your message which will >>>be >>>visible, such as your signature or attachments. >>> >>> This list is configured with public archives. >>> >>> JISCMail public list data has been available to search engines for >>>many >>>years. List owners choose whether their archives are public or >>>private, >>>so if you have any queries about whether a list should have public >>>archives, then contact the list owner (see >>>http://bit.ly/ContactListOwner for details). >>> >>> Public list archives are an important and useful source of >>>information >>>to the communities that we support, they enable wider collaboration >>>across educational research, learning, teaching and support networks >>>and >>>encourage new members. >>> >>> We hope this makes the situation clearer. >>> >>> >>> Lisa >>> >>> -- >>> Lisa Vincent >>> >>> Operations Manager >>> [log in to unmask] >>> 0191 222 8179 >>> >>> JISCMail is a JISC Advance Service >>> >>> ****************************************************** >>> Please note that if you press the 'Reply' button your message will >>>go >>>only to the sender of this message. >>> If you want to reply to the whole list, use your mailer's >>>'Reply-to-All' button to send your message automatically to >>>[log in to unmask] >>> Disclaimer: The messages sent to this list are the views of the >>>sender >>>and cannot be assumed to be representative of the range of views held >>>by >>>subscribers to the Radical Statistics Group. To find out more about >>>Radical Statistics and its aims and activities and read current and >>>past >>>issues of our newsletter you are invited to visit our web site >>>www.radstats.org.uk. >>> ******************************************************* >>> >>> ****************************************************** >>> Please note that if you press the 'Reply' button your message will >>>go >>>only to the sender of this message. >>> If you want to reply to the whole list, use your mailer's >>>'Reply-to-All' button to send your message automatically to >>>[log in to unmask] >>> Disclaimer: The messages sent to this list are the views of the >>>sender >>>and cannot be assumed to be representative of the range of views held >>>by >>>subscribers to the Radical Statistics Group. To find out more about >>>Radical Statistics and its aims and activities and read current and >>>past >>>issues of our newsletter you are invited to visit our web site >>>www.radstats.org.uk. >>> ******************************************************* >>> >>> >>> ****************************************************** >>> Please note that if you press the 'Reply' button your message will >>>go >>>only to the sender of this message. >>> If you want to reply to the whole list, use your mailer's >>>'Reply-to-All' button to send your message automatically to >>>[log in to unmask] >>> Disclaimer: The messages sent to this list are the views of the >>>sender >>>and cannot be assumed to be representative of the range of views held >>>by >>>subscribers to the Radical Statistics Group. To find out more about >>>Radical Statistics and its aims and activities and read current and >>>past >>>issues of our newsletter you are invited to visit our web site >>>www.radstats.org.uk. >>> ******************************************************* >>> >>> >>> ****************************************************** >>> Please note that if you press the 'Reply' button your message will >>>go >>> only to the sender of this message. >>> If you want to reply to the whole list, use your mailer's >>> 'Reply-to-All' button to send your message automatically to >>> [log in to unmask] >>> Disclaimer: The messages sent to this list are the views of the >>>sender >>>and cannot be assumed to be representative of the range of views held >>>by >>>subscribers to the Radical Statistics Group. To find out more about >>>Radical Statistics and its aims and activities and read current and >>>past >>>issues of our newsletter you are invited to visit our web site >>>www.radstats.org.uk. >>> ******************************************************* >>> >>> >>> ****************************************************** >>> Please note that if you press the 'Reply' button your message will >>>go >>> only to the sender of this message. >>> If you want to reply to the whole list, use your mailer's >>> 'Reply-to-All' button to send your message automatically to >>> [log in to unmask] >>> Disclaimer: The messages sent to this list are the views of the >>>sender >>>and cannot be assumed to be representative of the range of views held >>>by >>>subscribers to the Radical Statistics Group. To find out more about >>>Radical Statistics and its aims and activities and read current and >>>past >>>issues of our newsletter you are invited to visit our web site >>>www.radstats.org.uk. >>> ******************************************************* >> >>****************************************************** >>Please note that if you press the 'Reply' button your message will go >>only to the sender of this message. >>If you want to reply to the whole list, use your mailer's >>'Reply-to-All' >>button to send your message automatically to [log in to unmask] >>Disclaimer: The messages sent to this list are the views of the sender >>and cannot be assumed to be representative of the range of views held >>by >>subscribers to the Radical Statistics Group. To find out more about >>Radical Statistics and its aims and activities and read current and >>past >>issues of our newsletter you are invited to visit our web site >>www.radstats.org.uk. >>******************************************************* >> >>****************************************************** >>Please note that if you press the 'Reply' button your >>message will go only to the sender of this message. >>If you want to reply to the whole list, use your mailer's >>'Reply-to-All' button to send your message automatically >>to [log in to unmask] >>Disclaimer: The messages sent to this list are the views of the sender >>and cannot be assumed to be representative of the range of views held >>by >>subscribers to the Radical Statistics Group. To find out more about >>Radical Statistics and its aims and activities and read current and >>past >>issues of our newsletter you are invited to visit our web site >>www.radstats.org.uk. >>******************************************************* >> >>This email has been scanned for all viruses by the MessageLabs Email >>Security System. > >This email has been scanned for all viruses by the MessageLabs Email >Security System. > >****************************************************** >Please note that if you press the 'Reply' button your >message will go only to the sender of this message. >If you want to reply to the whole list, use your mailer's >'Reply-to-All' button to send your message automatically >to [log in to unmask] >Disclaimer: The messages sent to this list are the views of the sender >and cannot be assumed to be representative of the range of views held >by subscribers to the Radical Statistics Group. To find out more about >Radical Statistics and its aims and activities and read current and >past issues of our newsletter you are invited to visit our web site >www.radstats.org.uk. >******************************************************* ****************************************************** Please note that if you press the 'Reply' button your message will go only to the sender of this message. If you want to reply to the whole list, use your mailer's 'Reply-to-All' button to send your message automatically to [log in to unmask] Disclaimer: The messages sent to this list are the views of the sender and cannot be assumed to be representative of the range of views held by subscribers to the Radical Statistics Group. To find out more about Radical Statistics and its aims and activities and read current and past issues of our newsletter you are invited to visit our web site www.radstats.org.uk. *******************************************************