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I'm not sure about whether it was pagan v. Christian. I think it was just scientific curiosity. John Evelyn mentions seeing the preserved bodies of conjoined twins exhibited at Bartholomew Fair (I think) and if you look at the list of stalls at the Fair in the early 18th century, you'll see all sort of peculiarities exhibited. John Hunter was a real ghoul about getting examples for his museum - including the Irish giant, who must have been baptised, and the Italian midget - Caroline Crachami(?). Have a look at Jan Bondeson's work on this kind of thing. What we need to do is look at what was normal in society generally rather than instantly assuming that Black people were singled out. Kathy > Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2013 16:35:01 +0100 > From: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: exploitative practises among 'owners' of black servants in 17th century England > To: [log in to unmask] > > 'There's a contrast' -interesting, however the grammar of the 'profane' and the sacred are much closer than we often think. There is a whole literature on witches and saints and their similarities - bodily torture, voices, apparitions and connection with the supernatural. > Dr Wanda Wyporska > Equalities Officer, Association of Teachers and Lecturers > 7 Northumberland Street, London, WC2N 5RD > > E: [log in to unmask] M: 07435 970065 Twitter: @ATLWanda > www.facebook.com/ATLunion Twitter: @ATLUnion > ________________________________________ > From: The Black and Asian Studies Association [[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Susan Bolton / Jeffrey Green [[log in to unmask]] > Sent: 18 June 2013 14:58 > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: exploitative practises among 'owners' of black servants in 17th century England > > The diary entry of 7 Sept 1665 states that Vyner "showed me a black boy that he had that died of a consumption; and being dead, he caused him to be dried in a Oven, and lies there entire in a box" (Vol VI p 215) > > One assumes that such treatment was restricted to pagans (and to Christian saints - that's a contrast?). > > Jeff Green > > > > ======================================== > Message Received: Jun 18 2013, 12:24 PM > From: "Angela Allison" > To: [log in to unmask] > Cc: > Subject: Re: exploitative practises among 'owners' of black servants in 17th century England > > Isn't there reference, in Pepys diaries, about the 1665 'entertainment' provided by the banker Sir Robert Vyner who exhibited 'a black boy who had died of consumption'. Vyner had had the boy dried in an oven & placed in a box to be displayed to his visitors. > > Or did such treatment also happen to white servants too? > > Angela Allison, Coventry UK > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Susan Bolton / Jeffrey Green > To: [log in to unmask] > Sent: Mon, 17 Jun 2013 16:06:44 -0000 (UTC) > Subject: Re: exploitative practises among 'owners' of black servants in 17th century England > > The index (vol XI) of Latham and Matthews (eds) The Diary of Samuel Pepys (Harper Collins, 1995) does not show this but he did have a black servant named Doll who was a good cook (vol IX, p 510 [1686-1669] and numerous bad servants who were dismissed for gambling, theft, drinking, quarrelling, being lazy (all indexed). > Doll had been a servant to wine merchant William Batelier at the same time as a male servant. > > Best wishes > Jeff Green > > > > > > ======================================== > Message Received: Jun 17 2013, 01:22 PM > From: "Angela Allison" > To: [log in to unmask] > Cc: > Subject: exploitative practises among 'owners' of black servants in 17th century England > > This is a little later on in history, but doesn't Samuel Pepys make references to exploitative practises among 'owners' of black servants in 17th century England? > > Angela Allison, Coventry UK > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Fabian Tompsett > To: [log in to unmask] > Sent: Mon, 17 Jun 2013 09:17:34 -0000 (UTC) > Subject: Re: Helene, baptised 2nd May 1593 > > Yes, like Kathy I wondered what had lead the writer to such a conclusion. > > Something that researching the Black Presence is the way too often even > trained historians jump to conclusions without seeing what facts they have > to back them up. > > At one time I used to assume that Selina, Countess of Huntingdon was an > abolitionist. After all her name appears as a patroness in the dedication > pages of several early Black British writers books. > > Not so! She was a slave owner via an orphanage she started in Georgia - > she even had a slave named after her! > > Not only that but her chaplain, George Whitfield - whose preaching > converted John Marrant, and to whom Phyllis Wheatley dedicated a poem - > agitated for the legalisation of slavery in the colony of Georgia, where > it had been banned up until 1749. > > Likewise, Barclays Bank have contested their suggestion that they were > ever involved in the slave-trade, however admitting the situation where > they have acquired a company which had previously been involved in the > slave trade. There was someone with the name Barclay who wrote a book in > favour of slavery, which has led the unwary to assume Barclay's corporate > involvement. I have not seen any other evidence. > > So, we need to be very careful . . . > > all the best > > fabian > > > > I don't think Mortimer ever read the document about the horse- quite > > unrelated. Just read far too much into the parish register! But we'll have > > to ask him... > > > > > > On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 8:28 AM, Kathleen Chater > > >> wrote: > > > >> I thought this was doubtful, but as it's not my period didn't comment. > >> Now someone who has spent years on this has commented and rightly points > >> out the need do proper research. At this period, there was a strong > >> Puritan influence - not sure how strong in the West Country - but I'd be > >> very surprised if even a rich and influential person would get away with > >> something like that. > >> It's yet another example of careless research, like Simon Schama's claim > >> that there were people making a living as slave hunters in London in the > >> 18th century. > >> > >> This idea of Black people being used in this way crops up from time to > >> time, but is never substantiated by actual research, e.g. the widespread > >> belief that one of the Caribbean islands was used as a breeding colony > >> for > >> slaves. As I understand it, this was the result of misreading a letter. > >> > >> It looks like this was a casual misreading of the hire of a horse - plus > >> the need to sex up a thesis. I found the rest of the programme a bit > >> Horrible Histories for grownups. > >> > >> Kathy > >> > >> ------------------------------ > >> Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2013 15:05:41 +0100 > >> From: [log in to unmask] > >> Subject: Re: Helene, baptised 2nd May 1593 > >> To: [log in to unmask] > >> > >> > >> You can watch the episode here for the next 6 days: > >> http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b02xdbw7/Time_Travellers_Guide_to_Elizabethan_England_Brave_New_World/ > >> > >> The record mentioned is from St. Andrew's, Plymouth, where on 2nd May > >> 1593 > >> the baptism register reads: > >> > >> ‘Helene, daughter of Cristian the negro servant to Richard Sheere, the > >> supposed father beinge Cuthbert Holman, base’ > >> > >> Cristian had at least one other child, as on 14 April the following year > >> ‘Cristian, daughter of Cristian, Richard Sheer's Blackmoore’ was buried > >> in > >> the same parish. This time, no father is named, and the child may have > >> died before she could be baptized, or may have been an older child, > >> baptized elsewhere with the name ‘Christian’. > >> > >> [You can read some more Devon parish registers mentioning Africans here: > >> http://www.devon.gov.uk/text/index/councildemocracy/record_office/services_policies/outreach_activities/friends_of_archives/blacks_reference.htm > >> ] > >> > >> However, these records do not provide any evidence at all that "Sheere > >> rented out Cristian to his friends for sexual novelty & > >> experimentation." I > >> would certainly like to know how Dr. Mortimer came to this conclusion. > >> The > >> parish registers include many cases of illegitimate births, both to > >> African > >> and Englishwomen. Neither Sheere nor Colman have left many records in > >> Plymouth- the only reference I found was to Sheer hiring out a horse in > >> 1591. Holman could just as well have been Sheer's servant, as his > >> friend. > >> Further research into these individuals would be great! > >> > >> Records such as these should be viewed alongside those which tell a more > >> positive story, such as this St. Philip's and St. Jacob's, Bristol > >> baptism record of 18 August 1600: > >> > >> "Richard a Bastard, the sonne of Joane Marya a Black Moore & nowe the > >> wyffe of Thomas Smythe Byllysmaker, was baptized." > >> > >> You can read more about my research into Africans in Britain, 1500-1640 > >> on > >> my website: http://www.mirandakaufmann.com/history.html > >> > >> Miranda. > >> > >> > >> On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 8:06 AM, msherwood > >> wrote: > >> > >> Has anyone asked Dr M for more info? > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: The Black and Asian Studies Association > >> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] > >> On Behalf Of Angela Allison > >> Sent: 15 June 2013 00:17 > >> To: [log in to unmask] > >> Subject: Helene, baptised 2nd May 1593 > >> > >> Baptismal records state that the illegitimate Helene, baptised 2nd May > >> 1593, was the daughter of Cristian, the negro servant of Richard Sheere. > >> It > >> also states that the supposed father was Cuthbert Holman. Eg. Sheere > >> rented > >> out Cristian to his friends for sexual novelty & experimentation. > >> > >> Source: 45 mins into TV documentary: Episode 3 (Brave New World) of > >> ‘Time > >> Traveller’s Guide to Elizabethan England by Dr Ian Mortimer, June 2013 > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> Dr. Miranda Kaufmann > >> > >> www.mirandakaufmann.com > >> > >> [log in to unmask] > >> > >> 07855 792 885 > >> > > > > > > > > -- > > Dr. Miranda Kaufmann > > > > www.mirandakaufmann.com > > > > [log in to unmask] > > > > 07855 792 885 > > > > -------------------------------------------- > Moved house? 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