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Rich,

I think confirmation comes around even in everyday life where we have had something work and conditions change. Many of us will try the old again in hope that we need not change. I agree we need to explore when contradictory findings surface…

Best
Amy

From: Richard Saitz <[log in to unmask]>
Reply-To: Richard Saitz <[log in to unmask]>
Date: Sunday, May 5, 2013 1:34 PM
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: All-Cause Mortality With Overweight and Obesity

Hi All,

It is true that once a belief is established, when a study comes out with contradictory findings, it is often attacked.  On the other hand, a number of studies with unexpected results (eg hormone replacement and cardiovascular disease) have been rightly hugely influential.  Prior beliefs are important (we call them hypotheses sometimes!) but so too are objective studies that confirm or refute them.  It is particularly challenging to sort those out  when we are comparing observational studies as is the case with this controversy.

 

But Willett said this:  “the fundamental reason is that the authors did not adequately separate people who are lean because they are ill from those who lean because they are active and healthy”

 

That seems a critically important methodological issue if it is true.

 

It seems usually wise to replicate and/or scrutinize studies that have surprising conclusions.

 

Disclosure: I recently wrote about how we should be careful re Confirmation Bias and not blindly attack studies that counter prior beliefs here http://ebm.bmj.com/content/18/2/43.full (and reproduced below).

 

 

Best

Rich

 

Richard Saitz MD, MPH, FACP, FASAM

Editor, Evidence-Based Medicine

 

Professor of Medicine & Epidemiology

Boston University Schools of Medicine & Public Health

Boston Medical Center

 

ebm.bmj.com

 

 

Evid Based Med 2013;18:43 doi:10.1136/eb-2013-101221

·         Editorial

Accentuating the positive

1.     Richard Saitz

+Author Affiliations

1.        Section of General Internal Medicine, Boston University & Boston Medical Center, Boston, Massachusetts, USA

1.     Correspondence toRichard Saitz
Section of General Internal Medicine, Boston University and Boston Medical Center, Boston, Massachusetts 02118, USA; [log in to unmask]

You've got to accentuate the positiveEliminate the negativeAnd latch on to the affirmativeDon't mess with Mister In-BetweenJohnny MercerAc-Cent-Tchu-Ate The Positive, 1944

Although he was probably not thinking about medical scientists, lyricist Johnny Mercer's words described what we may be observing in the medical literature. In F1000 Research, Senn1raises doubt regarding the conclusions of observational studies that suggest major medical journals are not biased in favour of publishing positive studies. He points out that the observation of similar acceptance rates for manuscripts could even be indicative of the presence of a bias, if submitted negative studies tend to be of higher quality than positive studies, a situation for which he finds some evidence.

Senn's thought experiment is useful and a novel, clear-thinking way of understanding the issues, though the conclusion is not surprising in that it is consistent with what many authors believe. It serves as a plausible explanation for the data reported in studies of publication bias that he cites.

The larger context of bias towards positive studies is that of basic human psychology, and the recognition of confirmation bias.2 Confirmation bias occurs when observers favour data consistent with their beliefs. The bias is alive and well in medicine and is probably not discussed enough.

Studies that counter strongly held beliefs often attract not only criticism but also vitriolic comments. Two examples will suffice. A study in the New England Journal of Medicinesuggested that breast cancer screening was associated with a great deal of overdiagnosis and a very small effect on death from breast cancer.3 A radiologist and advocate of screening mammography called the study ‘junk science.’4 A review in Annals of Internal Medicine cited negative studies of screening and brief intervention for unhealthy alcohol use in hospitals, critically appraising a proposed performance measure's evidence base.5 Advocates for the practice commented on the review and its cited negative studies by simply asserting that ‘treatment works’, and describing the findings as ‘counterintuitive’, and ‘the death of medical common sense’.6 ,7 Although positive studies are also criticised, it seems less automatic when the intervention is believed to work. Further, the raw emotion that negative studies that counter strongly held beliefs seem to generate is remarkable, particularly when it comes from medical scientists. That confirmation bias may arise from deep psychological traits suggests we must be particularly cautious about it.

Fortunately, however, common sense and evidence-based medicine are not dead. And hopefully raising the topics of publication bias and its cousin, confirmation bias, will stimulate recognition of these biases and debate about how to handle them. I trust we will not apply Mr Mercer's advice blindly when we appraise the medical literature.

Footnotes

·         Competing interests None.

References

1.     Senn S

. Misunderstanding publication bias: editors are not blameless after all. [v1; ref status: indexed, http://f1000r.es/YvAwwD] F1000Research 2012;1:59 (doi: 10.3410/f1000reserch.1-59.v1) accessed January 20, 2013.

2.      

 

1.     Nickerson RS

. Confirmation bias: a ubiquitous phenomenon in many guises. Rev Genet Psychol 1998;2:175–220.

 

[CrossRef]

 

 

2.     Bleyer A

3.     Welch G

. Effect of three decades of screening mammography on breast-cancer incidence. N Engl J Med 2012;367:1998–2005.

 

[CrossRef][Medline][Web of Science]

 

 

4.     Kotz D

. 1 Million women ‘overdiagnosed’ with breast cancer due to mammograms, controversial study suggests. Boston Globe, 21 November 2012.

Search Google Scholar

 

 

5.     Saitz R

. Candidate performance measures for screening for, assessing and treating unhealthy substance use in hospitals: advocacy or evidence-based practice? Ann Intern Med 2010;153:40–3.

 

[Medline]

3.      

 

1.     Gentilello L

2.     Goplerud E

. Letter in response to candidate performance measures for screening for, assessing and treating unhealthy substance use in hospitals: advocacy or evidence-based practice? Ann Intern Med 2011;154:73.

 

[Medline]

4.      

 

1.     Madras BK

. Letter in response to candidate performance measures for screening for, assessing and treating unhealthy substance use in hospitals: advocacy or evidence-based practice? Ann Intern Med 2011;154:72–3.

 

[Medline]

 

 

 

 

From: Evidence based health (EBH) [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Anoop B
Sent: Sunday, May 05, 2013 1:10 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: All-Cause Mortality With Overweight and Obesity

 

Hi Amy,

 

Thanks for the comments as always.You are really passionate about EBM.

 

Considering how obesity is risk factor for almost everything out there, this is such an important paper.

 

And you said it right. Flegal showed us the data, now it is upto the rest of the people to interpret it and untangle the relationships. If they did the stats wrong, then we better stop reading papers. The people who worked behind are the best in the country. Hence my question about Willet's comments. For me it is strange, we talk about meta analysis being the pinnacle of evidence and how should put money into research, always look at meta analysis, and so forth, yet experts seems to be totally confused about how well was this meta-analysis done. Or maybe it is too obvious to comment and I don't see it. The first comment by Kev is a good example. And not even one single reply!! And this forum is supposed have the best in EBM. I think your  post about "knowledge for all" goes along with this. 

 

And if someone comes and ask about his meta-analysis and the results, I would hate to say nobody has a clue and start with "I personally prefer". 

 

Thanks!

Anoop

 

On Sun, May 5, 2013 at 11:17 AM, Amy Price <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

Hi All,

I wonder if this was simply a pragmatic paper to find out if ideal weight was ideal for the purpose of mortality why the need for explanatory criticisms arise. Could not future research break down explanatory factors? Suppose they observe that fat people are living as long as them and decide to answer the simple question is ideal weight ideal or do those boundaries need reexamination? From there they can look at things like maybe ideal weight in a prosperous society can encompass a greater range or not? Historically what about other civilizations that celebrated plumpness, was there a higher mortality rate? What if metabolic disease kicks in at a higher threshold than previously imagined? Does dieting add to life span and if so by how much…is it worth it? 

 

(Short subjective rant)

I personally prefer to be slim because I feel healthier but if  the choice means using dieting chemicals and eating food that tastes like used sneakers I am not on board. If I buy something considered decadent or relish my food at a restaurant I want to enjoy this without feeling peer pressure or social guilt. If we make a bid deal about people being fat but can offer them no long lasting resolution like maintained health and weight loss what is the point?

 

Amy

 

 

From: Anoop B <[log in to unmask]>
Reply-To: Anoop B <[log in to unmask]>
Date: Thursday, May 2, 2013 1:42 PM
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: All-Cause Mortality With Overweight and Obesity

 

Has anyone read the paper yet? I am curious to know what's the clinical significance of a 6% decrease in mortality in the over weight group or what's .94 HR means clinically?

 

Thank you

Anoop

 

On Sun, Mar 24, 2013 at 6:11 AM, k.hopayian <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

Hi Anoop,

An interesting question in several ways:

1 A reflection on how we react when evidence conflicts with deeply ingrained beliefs: What, over weight people live longer than 'ideal weight' people? There must be something wrong with this study. 

2 How we non-epidemiologists (evidence-based clinicians as end-users of epidemiology) approach disagreement between experts in epidemiology. Can we take a stand? We can and must even if it is only to acknowledge uncertainty.

3 An appraisal of the evidence itself.

 

Picking up number 3, I had a look at the paper and did not find anything to justify Willett's assertions that there was no consideration of confounding factors. For example, under data extraction, the authors stated;

"In studies that only presented results stratified by smoking or health condition, we selected results for nonsmokers or never smokers or for those without the health condition."

…and in considering the quality of the analyses in the studies they stated:

"We considered the results adequately adjusted if they were adjusted for age, sex, and smoking and not adjusted for factors in the causal pathway between obesity and mortality, or if they had reported or demonstrated that adjustments or exclusions to avoid bias had shown little effect on their findings."

Now there may be some finer points that elude me so I look forward to hearing from those with more epidemiological knowledge. However, I remain unconvinced that there was no confounding because I am led to ask, What did they do about studies that did not report stratified data or give adequate descriptions of adjustment? And I don't like the fact that they included publications with some overlap in populations. So returning to points 1 & 2 above, my conclusion is that there is probably something wrong with this study but I cannot dismiss it as a pile of anything.

 

BTW, I can email a copy of this paper for those who want it so long as it is for personal study only.

 

Dr Kev (Kevork) Hopayian, MD FRCGP
General Practitioner, Leiston, Suffolk
Hon Sen Lecturer, Norwich Medical School, University of East Anglia
Primary Care Tutor, Suffolk

RCGP Clinical Skills Assessment examiner

 

On 24 Mar 2013, at 04:27, Anoop Balachandran <[log in to unmask]> wrote:



I am curious to know anybody has any comments about Flegal's controversial paper on mortality and BMI:

Here is the link: http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=1555137

Harvard epidemiologist Walter Willett says that the paper is a "pile of rubbish":http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/questions/ask-the-expert-does-being-overweight-really-decrease-mortality-no/

 

 

 


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