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**Please note that if you press the Reply button to respond to this mailing, it will be distributed to everyone on the Childlore List. If you want to make a personal reply, you will need to modify the Reply-To line of your message.** Thanks Thor. I can see how the 'helicopter' game could have a particular relevance to the girls on the island. Laurie and Winifred Bauer found a version of the game in New Zealand, but it had an updated rhyme: 'Helicopter, helicopter please come down. If you don't I'll shoot you down!' http://folksong.org.nz/pdf_copies/Bauer_skipgames.pdf Wonder where that one came from! Best wishes, Judy On 29/05/13 2:26 PM, [log in to unmask] wrote: > **Please note that if you press the Reply button to respond to this mailing, it will be distributed to everyone on the Childlore List. If you want to make a personal reply, you will need to modify the Reply-To line of your message.** > > Thank you Judy for telling this. I did not imply that the girls in Hundvåg > (Skeie skole) had "invented" the game. Nor did Kathren Marsh and I observed > it when we did the research for "The MusicaL playground" in 2002-2008 > > We are facing a global influences game, as many of the others, like > Teddybear and the rest. > > There have been other pop-songs witch included helicopters, we had one > "Pink helicopter" but that was not accompanied by a game of one sort of the > other. > > Why the helicopter is included may be the fact that at a time it was a > novelety and the ability to raise and set vertically was simulated in the > game. But I will keep a door open for the obvious likelihood that it may > not descend in and orderly way, but to crash and life being lost. The fact > remind that most of the inhabitants in the suburban area at the island was > populated strongly by people working in the "oil" and had their only > transport to the rig by helicopter. Coincidents? Perhaps, maybe....but > if....? > > Original email: > ----------------- > From: jmckinty [log in to unmask] > Date: Wed, 29 May 2013 12:47:38 +1000 > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: interpreting smashed tomatoes& Helicopter > > > **Please note that if you press the Reply button to respond to this > mailing, it will be distributed to everyone on the Childlore List. If you > want to make a personal reply, you will need to modify the Reply-To line of > your message.** > > Thor, I think the 'Helicopter' rhyme also has another source. I remember > playing the same game as a child, and chanting a similar rhyme. This is > how we played it in Ballarat, Australia, in the 1950s: > One girl stood in the middle holding both ends of a skipping rope in one > hand. She swung the (shortened) skipping rope around in a circle above > her head while we all chanted: 'Helicopter, helicopter please come down. > Helicopter, helicopter, land on the ground.' At the end of the rhyme, > the girl in the middle let go of one end of the rope (making it long > enough to now reach the other players standing around the circle), at > the same time bringing the rope downwards towards the ground and turning > herself around with the rope, to keep it skimming just above the ground. > The other players would try to jump over the rope as it reached them. > Whoever stopped the rope was out, and the last person left in went in > the middle next time. You could get really dizzy if you were in the > middle and the other players were good at jumping over the rope. > > A (very) quick look at the Opies books shows me that 'Helicopter, > helicopter' isn't listed in any index, and it doesn't appear to be in > Steve Roud's book /The Lore of the Playground/ or the Australian > compilation /Cinderella Dressed in Yella /either, but it does appear in > an early edition of /Play and Folklore/ (Nov. 1984, No 7, p.8), in a > list of playground games described by a 7 year-old girl. I've also come > across it being played in various places in Australia over the years so > it's been around in this country for at least 60 years. > > Here's the link to /Play and Folklore/ issues published in the 1980s: > > http://museumvictoria.com.au/about/books-and-journals/journals/play-and-folk > lore/1980-1989/ > > Best wishes, > Judy Mckinty > > > > On 28/05/13 7:18 PM, [log in to unmask] wrote: >> **Please note that if you press the Reply button to respond to this > mailing, it will be distributed to everyone on the Childlore List. If you > want to make a personal reply, you will need to modify the Reply-To line of > your message.** >> I have been thinking how I came to the conclusion that tomatoes equals >> children in the joke. >> 1. Children knows that a tomato can not move by itself. It does not posses >> feet. >> 2. Children knows that to cross a road you have to have feet or wheels or >> being able to fly. Tomatoes cannot walk, roll or fly. >> 3. When a tomato are crushed it's impact on the road will be similar to >> that of blood, huiman or what is the result of a crushed animal, like a > cat >> or a hedgehogs (the two most common items children are familiar with) >> 4. A parent are likely to sumond his/her child when something happens. >> 5. A crushed baby looking like a crushed tomato must appear funny >> (unexpected) and is in line with many other jokes on the wild side of > life. >> I do not suppose that children are familiar with Nestons laws on objects, >> but they sure can imagine pictures in their own heads... >> >> >> I observed once some girls in 4th grade skipping ropes. They used one > short >> rope, one girl swinging it over her head while the others jumped in or out >> as they do in "Teddybear, Teddybear". The funny thing was that they had >> made a song I never had heard before: Helicopter, Helicopter, jump. jump >> jump, helicopter helcopter come home now, helicopter helicopter hop out >> now.... (or something like it, I have the text somewhere but cannot get it >> right now...) >> The point is: This was a primary school on an island in Stavanger where >> most of the men-folk worked offshore on the oil instalations in the >> Northsea. They have to travel in helicopters no matter how rough the >> weather. It happened that the helicopters crashed and that people lost >> their lifes. I figure the kids were examining their fear for what could >> happen to their fathers on duty on the high seas... >> >> The same thing I experienced with an exibition of childrens 3d >> constructions in the Cultural Center in Stavanger. The motto for the event >> was "My father works in oil(bussiness)" Most of the items was > constructions >> of oil-rigs and drawings. The interesting things were that the >> constructions was very detailed, but tecknical details was missing. But >> there were an overwhelming amount of lifeboats, helicopters, lifefloats > and >> supplyships, everything that could bring their parents safe ashore. And > the >> drawings gave the same impact, and in addition there were many drawings of >> Jesus Christ (as the Saviour) walking on the waves reaching out for the >> people on the plat-form... You don't have to be a genius to see what the >> kids were telling... >> >> I would be very honoured if you could see that you lend a bit of your >> consideration to these thoughts as it mean something to me that we can be >> assured that we understand what kids are telling us when they keep their >> thoughts to themselves.... >> >> All the best, >> Thor G. >> >> >> Original email: >> ----------------- >> From: Andy ARLEO [log in to unmask] >> Date: Sun, 26 May 2013 13:57:13 +0200 >> To: [log in to unmask] >> Subject: Re: interpreting smashed tomatoes >> >> >> **Please note that if you press the Reply button to respond to this >> mailing, it will be distributed to everyone on the Childlore List. If you >> want to make a personal reply, you will need to modify the Reply-To line > of >> your message.** >> >> Thanks, Thor. That smashed tomatoes may be a metaphor for babies/ >> toddlers for some chldren is an interesting proposal, but I often feel >> that such interpretations lack evidence to back them up. If we were to >> find texts within and across cultures that support this idea, I would >> be more convinced. Better yet, we could ask kids themselves for their >> own interpretations. But even if some kids did explicitly say that >> they identify tomatoes and toddlers, that would not mean that all kids >> do. So I see it as a potential metaphor, and now that you've planted >> it in my brain, it will influence my own future interpretations of >> "smashed tomatoes." Perhaps a psychoanalytical approach would suggest >> that it was already there in my unconscious mind waiting for someone >> like you to bring it to awareness (now how could that be proved or >> disproved?). >> >> The fact that kids like to hear a joke about tomatoes crossing a >> motorway does not necessarily imply that this "means something else". >> Simply imagining tomatoes as people (metaphorical thinking) is >> incongruous and amusing in itself for kids young and old. >> >> Cheers, have a pleasant Sunday, >> >> andy >> >> >> Le 25 mai 13 à 10:41, [log in to unmask] a écrit : >> >>> **Please note that if you press the Reply button to respond to this >>> mailing, it will be distributed to everyone on the Childlore List. >>> If you want to make a personal reply, you will need to modify the >>> Reply-To line of your message.** >>> >>> Dear all >>> >>> Jane Stemp Wickenden ask: What is it with english schoolchildren and >>> smashed tomatoes?? >>> >>> Smashed tomatoes translates to babies/toddlers. Children cannot >>> eksperience >>> with grown ups beating up children but they can see smashed tomatoes >>> and >>> the similarities to blood. Come on ketchup, is a common joke in >>> kindergartens, perhaps in a global context... >>> >>> When 99% of children in a kindergarten demands to tell you this joke >>> about >>> the two tomatoes crossing a highly trafficked motorway, it must mean >>> something else to them then... >>> >>> All the best, >>> Thor G. >>> >>> >>> Original email: >>> ----------------- >>> From: Andy ARLEO [log in to unmask] >>> Date: Fri, 24 May 2013 12:44:08 +0200 >>> To: [log in to unmask] >>> Subject: Re: BBC radio 3 program on Frère Jacques - parody >>> asrequested >>> >>> >>> **Please note that if you press the Reply button to respond to this >>> mailing, it will be distributed to everyone on the Childlore List. >>> If you >>> want to make a personal reply, you will need to modify the Reply-To >>> line of >>> your message.** >>> >>> great, thanks for these versions! >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> Message du 23/05/13 19:52 >>>> De : "Jane Stemp Wickenden" >>>> A : [log in to unmask] >>>> Copie à : >>>> Objet : Re: BBC radio 3 program on Frère Jacques - parody as >>>> requested >>>> >>>> **Please note that if you press the Reply button to respond to this >>> mailing, it will be distributed to everyone on the Childlore List. >>> If you >>> want to make a personal reply, you will need to modify the Reply-To >>> line of >>> your message.** >>>> Andy, >>>> >>>> Not sure you would want to *hear* me singing it! I suppose it is >>>> not so >>> much >>>> a parody as a song to the same tune, and it is embarrassingly puerile >>> (well >>>> I was only 9). The year must have been about 1970, because I recall >>>> both >>> my >>>> brothers joining in, and they're 2 years and 5 years younger than >>>> me. We >>>> lived in the south of Surrey, about 20 miles from London. >>>> >>>> Ahem... >>>> >>>> Squashed tomatoes, squashed tomatoes >>>> Irish stew, Irish stew >>>> Soggy semolina, soggy semolina >>>> I feel sick, I feel sick. >>>> >>>> (what is it about the British schoolchild and squashed tomatoes?) >>>> >>>> I've just asked my husband, and he remembers a version whose first >>>> two >>> lines >>>> were >>>> >>>> Bread and butter, bread and butter >>>> Spotted dick, spotted dick >>>> >>>> - this seems likely to be the original to judge by the matching >>>> rhymes? It >>>> was about 1964, and he was living in north-west London. >>>> >>>> For the purposes of clarification I should perhaps add that >>>> "spotted dick" >>>> is the name for a rolled-up, boiled, suet pudding filled - often >>>> sparsely >>> - >>>> with currants. >>>> >>>> >>>> Jane >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: The Children's Folklore Mailing List >>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] >>>> On Behalf Of Andy ARLEO >>>> Sent: 23 May 2013 15:11 >>>> To: [log in to unmask] >>>> Subject: Re: BBC radio 3 program on Frère Jacques >>>> >>>> **Please note that if you press the Reply button to respond to this >>> mailing, >>>> it will be distributed to everyone on the Childlore List. If you >>>> want to >>>> make a personal reply, you will need to modify the Reply-To line of >>>> your >>>> message.** >>>> >>>> Thanks, Jane. I would love to hear, or have the words, to your >>>> parody! >>>> >>>>  >>>> >>>> I just got a message from the producer (below), in case you want to >>>> listen >>>> to the program in the next week. >>>> >>>>  >>>> >>>> cheers, >>>> >>>>  >>>> >>>> andy >>>> >>>>  >>>> >>>> Dear Andy, Adam and Richard, >>>> >>>> >>>> IÂ'm very pleased to let you know that my feature on Â"Frere >>>> JacquesÂ", >>> titled >>>> Â"Are You Sleeping, Brother JohnÂ" will be broadcast TONIGHT >>>> (Thursday >>> 23rd >>>> May) at around 8.15pm UK time on BBC Radio 3, in the interval of >>>> live in >>>> concert. >>>> >>>>  >>>> >>>> You can listen to it live, anywhere in the world at the BBC Radio 3 >>> homepage >>>> www.bbc.co.uk/radio3 - and for 7 days after transmission (UK only) at >>>> http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01sj122 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> Message du 21/05/13 22:45 >>>>> De : "Jane Stemp Wickenden" >>>>> A : [log in to unmask] >>>>> Copie à : >>>>> Objet : Re: BBC radio 3 program on Frère Jacques >>>>> >>>>> **Please note that if you press the Reply button to respond to this >>>> mailing, it will be distributed to everyone on the Childlore List. >>>> If you >>>> want to make a personal reply, you will need to modify the Reply-To >>>> line >>> of >>>> your message.** >>>>> Well done Andy! >>>>> >>>>> My brothers and I drove my mother mad by singing a parody of this >>>>> in the >>>>> 1970s... >>>>> >>>>> Here is the exact link to the programme: >>>>> http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01sj122 >>>>> >>>>> Jane >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Jane Stemp >>>>> >>>>> Waterbound (Hodder, 1995) / Secret Songs (Hodder, 1997) >>>>> contributor: The Sixpenny Debt - The Lost College - The Bodleian >>> Murders - >>>>> The Midnight Press /& other Oxford stories (2006, 2008, 2010, 2012 >>>>> [forthcoming]) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: The Children's Folklore Mailing List >>>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] >>>>> On Behalf Of Andy ARLEO >>>>> Sent: 21 May 2013 15:01 >>>>> To: [log in to unmask] >>>>> Subject: BBC radio 3 program on Frère Jacques >>>>> >>>>> **Please note that if you press the Reply button to respond to this >>>> mailing, >>>>> it will be distributed to everyone on the Childlore List. If you >>>>> want to >>>>> make a personal reply, you will need to modify the Reply-To line >>>>> of your >>>>> message.** >>>>> >>>>> Dear All, >>>>> >>>>>  >>>>> >>>>> BBC Radio 3 will be airing a program on Frère Jacques on Thur May >>>>> 23 >>>> around >>>>> 8:15pm UK time. Thanks to Julia Bishop, I was contacted and >>>>> interviewed >>> by >>>>> the producer. You can listen to it live at: >>>>> >>>>>  >>>>> >>>>>  www.bbc.co.uk/radio3 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Best regards, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Andy >>>>> >>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> mail2web LIVE -- Free email based on Microsoft® Exchange technology - >>> http://link.mail2web.com/LIVE >> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >> mail2web.com -- What can On Demand Business Solutions do for you? >> http://link.mail2web.com/Business/SharePoint >> > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > mail2web LIVE – Free email based on Microsoft® Exchange technology - > http://link.mail2web.com/LIVE >