Thanks Simon, I had feared that LaTex etc. might not work well with screen readers. The location issue is a tricky one – the family issue that necessitates
the student being London based is disability related to a close family member so we are trying to be as accommodating as we can. But the logistics of trying to get a workable solution at such a geographical distance might defeat us despite our best efforts.
Kathryn
From: Discussion list for disabled
students and their support staff. [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of
Simon Jarvis
Sent: 26 April 2013 12:21
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: NMH support in London - advice please
We have had a very similar situation here in recent years where a visually impaired student was enrolled on a Maths undergraduate programme. To my knowledge there is still no text-to-speech
program that can handle LaTex and other Maths code - if anyone knows different, I'd be delighted to hear from them - and it quickly became apparent that the only realistic way the student would be able to progress was if they learned Maths Braille.
The student used a very similar strategy to the one that Kathryn describes, i.e. someone copying the various mathematical symbols out onto a large whiteboard, but this was so labour intensive that the student's DSA was exhausted before the end of the year (and
this was with the £20k undergraduate DSA). One issue we found was that offering postgraduate Maths / Physics students £10-£12 per hour for this kind of work was nowhere near attractive enough, so without wishing to sound pessimistic I think you will struggle
to engage anyone with the requisite skillset for that kind of money. And I don't think this would be unique to London, either.
This may sound a tad harsh, but why is it your responsibility to find him someone in the London area? You've said that he wants to stay in London for family reasons, i.e. not course or disability related, so I am not convinced it is 'reasonable' for you to
spend hours and hours trying to source someone 80-odd miles away from where you are based.
Good luck with this, anyway.
Best wishes,
Simon
On 26/04/2013 07:29, Alistair McNaught wrote:
Emma makes very important points here. This is a highly specialised field of accessibility support, never mind a highly specialised field of study!
Critical to any support will be a thorough understanding of the current skill levels (screenreader? Braille? MathML? LaTeX?) and strategies employed by the student in getting to this point. The nature and stability of the sight problem may also be a relevant factor if there is stable usable sight you might get away with a very large screen and very high magnification.
I don't know the answers to this but do any Maths and Science specialists on this list know of any VI/STEM communities of practice where VI practitioners and advise and support one another? It may not be a day-to-day solution but it could be a contributory factor to maintaining confidence in the face of the adversities that are almost certainly going to be there!
Alistair
-----Original Message-----
From: Discussion list for disabled students and their support staff. [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Emma Cliffe
Sent: 25 April 2013 15:13
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: NMH support in London - advice please
Dear Kathryn,
There are methods of working with a screenreader or stand alone programmes with self voicing ability which can cope to an extent with many advanced mathematical notations. The more likely difficulties/costs
are:
* gaining access to the right tools
* work to acquire or transform resources with such content into a suitable format for the tools to work
* the student learning how to work with those formats and tools effectively to support their studies The above will almost certainly require support but not necessarily so much in person and over time the number of hours will likely drop. The right working methods are dependent on how the student currently works with text, their technical confidence and the ways their department tend to create documents.
http://mathstore.ac.uk/headocs/InclusiveCurricula_0.pdf contains some starting points including papers on accessing mathematical content and a list of resources. If you wish to get in contact off list I will be able to direct you to targeted resources specific to the query - but I would need further information.
Beyond that, I can't help with most of the rest of the below other than express two fears capturing why I feel a careful exploration of the available technology for accessing symbolic content would be needed.
Firstly, that you will find it very difficult to recruit suitably qualified support at that pay rate. Secondly, a PhD student might find it very hard going if they do not develop effective methods to read widely in their subject, work through problems, write and generally communicate with their peers and supervisor.
Kind regards,
Emma
Emma Cliffe
Mathematics and Statistics Resource Centre Development Officer University of Bath
On 24/04/13 18:15, Fisher, Kathryn wrote:
I'd be grateful for any help and advice on a challenging situation
regarding some NMH support - it's not your run of the mill request!
Any information that might help from colleagues would be much appreciated.
We have a student who is shortly hoping to start a PhD with us at
Warwick. The PhD is in Symbolic Logic, part-time, through our
Philosophy department. As I now know, this is a rather specialised
technical subject, closer to advanced mathematics in many ways.
The student has a severe visual impairment and this presents a few
logistical challenges. For example the symbols used in this subject
are too specialised for any screen reading software (or at least any
that we are aware of), meaning that that symbols would need to be
written out for him on to a whiteboard or on to large pieces of paper.
It seems that any support worker working with him would need to have a
Philosophy, Maths or at least a scientific background.
The situation is more complicated as the student wishes to remain
based in London (Teddington) for compelling family reasons. We are
therefore in the position of having to think about the best way we
might recruit a suitable support worker for him in London and also
try to find somewhere that it may be possible for him to work with his
support worker close to his home.
As a part-time student, the amount of DSA funding available is going
to be limited to around £10,260 for each year of his course, we have a
fairly limited budget at the university to go over this amount. The
student is anticipating needing 3-4 hours per day for most of the year.
Whilst we employ our support workers at around £10.25 an hour in
Warwick, of course London rates will be higher - £11.50 has been
suggested - not sure if this is realistic?
Do colleagues have any view on how easy it might be to find such a
support worker? We would consider working with agencies if the costs
are not prohibitive so contact from agency based colleagues would be
welcome on or off list - to [log in to unmask]
<mailto:[log in to unmask]> please.
In the unlikely event of any London based colleagues having "spare"
support workers who might be available and suitable, please do get in
touch!
The other issue is a suitable venue for working with a support worker.
Whilst I'm reasonably confident colleagues in London based
institutions would grant him access to their libraries and communal
study spaces through SCONUL or other arrangements, we have advised the
student that his expectation of being able to use a separate room with
a white board at an institution he is not registered at, is probably
unrealistic. I have emailed RNIB to see if they have any study spaces
in London that they could make available to him, but any other
suggestions would be welcome.
I'm sure you'll appreciate it's quite a conundrum so any
help/advice/sympathy is much appreciated!
Best wishes
Kathryn
Kathryn Fisher
Disability Coordinator
Disability Services
University House
The University of Warwick
Coventry CV4 8UW, UK
Tel: +44 (0)24 76573734
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Simon Jarvis
Head of Disability & Dyslexia Service
Queen Mary University of London
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