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I'm just going to add one thing at the end. I suspect we're mostly in agreement. >> I am made painfully and well aware of their use as such in XML schemata every day. And it is a big fault in XML, IMHO. People may do this - and standards, e.g. SOAP WS-*, etc may mandate it - but that, in my opinion, is merely one of the very many things wrong with those standards, and the usages that people put them to. > > You may not like it, but they're not breaking any rules. SOAP makes me all stabby too, but I can only argue that it's stupid, not that it's wrong. Yeah, but no, it's still wrong. Even the standards are wrong. Maybe even beyond just wrong. They are wrong on several different fronts, mostly to do with sensible software engineering, for reasons that you obviously understand. Just because a WS-I or IETF standard officially encodes the wrong doesn't make it right. regards scot