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I hope I have explained clearly why I think the EH definition is the best from my perspective. I also reiterate the fact that this is my opinion and only my opinion. However, I would say one more thing about the EH definition. Brown, many of you will know of his work for example the 'Holy and Notable Wells of Devon', was instrumental in conserving a significant number of Holy Wells in Devon by helping what would become EH to list (give legal protection to) Wells in the aftermath of the Town and Country Planning Act 1947. The point is that the people who informed the current EH definition are respected Holy Well authors as well as (non specialist) historians, archaeologists, architectural historians and field researchers. And the result of the development of the EH definition has been the listing and protection of many 100’s of Holy Wells a number of which would otherwise have been destroyed. ________________________________ From: Janet Bord <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Sent: Wednesday, 13 March 2013, 19:29 Subject: Re: Holy Well newsletter help If you agree that the EH definition is not perfect, omits things and needs clarification, why are you so wedded to it? The EH definition of a holy well hardly scratches the surface of the topic, and is also inaccurate. It was clearly not written by someone immersed in the study of holy wells. You will be pleased to hear I do not intend to pursue this argument any further, having now had my say. I’ll leave it to others to thrash out a workable definition – but please ensure it’s accurate! Janet Bord ________________________________ From:Wells and Spas - The email discussion list for Holy Wells. [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of R Lee Sent: 13 March 2013 10:57 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Holy Well newsletter help I am not arguing that the English Heritage (EH) definition is perfect as I say. And there are some things it omits and needs to clarify, this is most definitely true. I guess this is because EH is an archaeological (pretty much) organization and so is interested in fabric and finds and their interpretation in the first instance (they do include etymology, typology, folklore, etc within their definition and its application but this is usually in the second instance). I am archaeologist by trade and I agree with this approach and so by extension definition. But there are of course alternative approaches in other fields that are no less valid. Re. the newsletter, the EH definition is a guide, it is not a barrier. Study of any Well classified by definitions in any other field/way are of course welcome. Indeed I would welcome any article that offers non-archaeological approaches to Wells. From:Janet Bord <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Sent: Wednesday, 13 March 2013, 18:39 Subject: Re: Holy Well newsletter help This is all well and good, but we come back to the basic point I made originally, that not all holy wells incorporate structures, in fact a large number of them don’t, therefore the EH definition is inaccurate. Surely in our study of holy wells we need to strive for accuracy. Janet Bord From:Wells and Spas - The email discussion list for Holy Wells. [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of R Lee Sent: 13 March 2013 09:53 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Holy Well newsletter help I appreciate that not everyone agrees with this definition, and I respect that. All are entitled to an opinion. Yes the EH definition does a few things badly, but it does a multitude of things very well, in fact in my opinion (and it is only opinion) significantly better than any other definition I have read. For a start it is derived from the following: an excellent and comprehensive dating framework based on the architectural classification of Wells. I have never seen this done in any systematic way in any other work or database (except the NWI's). It also, again almost uniquely (see above), contains a framework for including extensive archaeological evidence. Its terms allow systematic referencing and site reports to compensate for material losses for any given site. It also provides data required by the EH listing framework for Wells and relates seamlessly to other archaeological and architectural collections by providing a superb and standardized comparative framework for its data. I believe nobody and no organization can claim the same kind of support for their definition hence I use the EH definition. It is not perfect I know, it can be disputed here and there, agreed, but what it delivers is just exceptional and unsurpassed and I personally think the benefits far outweigh the flaws. Personally, I consider that if material has been introduced to a site, or a natural site modified, then it comes under the EH definition. If neither of these things have occurred then actual classification becomes tricky and is perhaps not ‘concrete’ in so far as I can apply that term. But again this is just my opinion. From:Janet Bord <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Sent: Wednesday, 13 March 2013, 15:23 Subject: Re: Holy Well newsletter help With regard to a definition of a holy well, here is one by Tristan Gray Hulse, quoted in Jeremy Harte’s English Holy Wells: A Sourcebook (vol.1) p.4, where further discussion of the problem of defining holy wells by Jeremy can be found. ‘A natural (or, rarely, an artificial) source of water, either with or without some form of associated material structure, for which, either in the past or in the present, some evidence (either actual or presumed) of some form of cult can be demonstrated: evidence of cult to include onomastics; topography (i.e. associations in space – the ‘sacred’ landscape); history; archaeology; hagiography; legend; pilgrimage; bathing or drinking for sanative, penitential or other ends; presence of votive deposits; architecture; folklore and local oral/written tradition; &c.’ By the way, who is the EH whose definition was offered initially? The only writer on holy wells with these initials that I can think of is Ethelbert Horne, writing in the 1920s, and of course our knowledge and understanding of holy wells has moved on since then. Janet Bord From:Wells and Spas - The email discussion list for Holy Wells. [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of R Lee Sent: 12 March 2013 02:10 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Holy Well newsletter help Re: comments about the Holy Well definition. I understand people will take issue with this. That is fine, I certainly do not call this definition definitive in any way. However I would stress two things. Firstly, some sort of definition needs to be deployed in a newsletter about Holy Wells and the EH definition which is what I am using (I wish I could claim I came up with it, but sadly no), is the best and most embracing definition I have seen, that still retains something usefully diagnostic. Secondly, I don’t think I am excluding anything from this newsletter because it does not meet the definition. I certainly know that coming are articles on Bath, Roman river rituals and the like. I guess what I am saying is that these areas all focus and contextualize Holy Wells, as defined by EH, in some way. The definition is just a guide. What I would really welcome is an article challenging this definition. Now that would be very interesting if there are any offers? From:"Cormack, Margaret Jean" <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Sent: Tuesday, 12 March 2013, 1:35 Subject: Re: Holy Well newsletter help I agree with an earlier contributor, not all holy "wells" have manmade surrounds, in Iceland hardly any of them do. Meg From:Wells and Spas - The email discussion list for Holy Wells. [[log in to unmask]] on behalf of R Lee [[log in to unmask]] Sent: Monday, March 11, 2013 11:06 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Holy Well newsletter help It will only include information that in some way relate to Holy Wells, but we have a very broad definition of Holy Wells that could include Spas, Pre Christian water veneration, pilgrimage, customs etc. Our definition of a Holy Well is EH's, 'a well or spring, possessing religious or otherwise ritualistic significance, around which a structure, such as a niche, wall or shelter, has been constructed' 'a well or spring, possessing religious or otherwise ritualistic significance, around which a structure, such as a niche, wall or shelter, has been constructed' So pretty broad then. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Text inserted by Panda GP 2013: This message has NOT been classified as spam. 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