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Hi all
I've been wondering about this having seen it from the Research Councils side of the fence, and as someone in a similar position to Ben. This has also arisen for me recently
when I had some work done by a sole trader who is small enough not to have to be VAT registered: I suddenly found I was getting 17% more bang for my buck...
On reflection, my feeling is that the "fairest" solution is to quote a fees: "VAT registered companies will be paid up to £1200 for this work inclusive of VAT; others
will be paid £1000". But that may not give the best value for money solution...
Dom
From: psci-com: on public engagement with science [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
On Behalf Of Melanie Knetsch (ESRC, PCD)
Sent: 12 February 2013 20:26
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [PSCI-COM] Question for Evaluators
Sorry it has taken me so long to get back to you Ben - I have been away for a few days. Can I just pick you up on a few points below as VAT has been something
I have given quite a lot of thought to when writing tenders.
We are very aware of the difference between research grants and contracts and they are very different in many ways beyond VAT. I am not going to pretend that
I know enough about VAT claims, but I am pretty sure that if we could claim back for the 'service' of the evaluation contract we would be doing so. However I will check with our finance people to get their views - I suspect we cannot. This aside, I am more
interested in your earlier comment about 'fairness' in the tender.
The amount I highlighted below at £6k isn't really a significant amount for VAT. If we were to look at an evaliution piece at eg £80k or £100k, then VAT becomes
significant if not accounted for at the start. If we plan for an evaluation to cost the maximum of our budget for the work, and then VAT is charged on top of this - this means the money may not be there (eg a potentially additional £20k for the £100k budget).
How do I get around this? My answer has been to say the maximum amount anyone can apply for is £100k VAT inclusive and be up front at the start about the maximum
amount. However, if you are saying this isn't 'fair' how do you think this issue should be resolved? Should we offer two tiers? £80k withouth VAT maximum and £100k with VAT - similar to how FEC (fulll economic costing) is stated in grant calls? I am happy
to have value for money and not spend all allocated, I just like to build this into my planning hence my suggestion of a two tiered costings in the tender. No one that I work with would think underspending in an area is inefficient. However, it is being caught
out the other way - of not adding in VAT costs to the top end of my budget- that causes many more challenges.
So I welcome your, and any others on the list, views of how to make this 'fairer'. Or is "upto £X amount inclusive of VAT" the best way to go?
Many thanks
Melanie
From: psci-com: on public engagement with
science [[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Ben Johnson [[log in to unmask]]
Sent: 07 February 2013 12:54
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [PSCI-COM] Question for Evaluators
Just because I complain about it, doesn't mean i understand it, but...
Funders need to distinguish between grants and contracts; they can be very different things in relation to VAT. Also, a number of bodies are able to declare services they procure as "outside the scope of VAT",
in particular, this relates to services supporting education, but I think there are other arguments that can be made. I would also look into how research councils recover VAT on other goods and services they procure; if the council is recovering VAT on vehicles,
furnishings etc then why not add the contract in question to that list? This way, your budget is unaffected.
As regards setting a level playing field, I feel quite strongly that ethical conduct should be fundamental to public bodies and their procurement procedures. We should also bear in mind that many organisations
are delighted to procure services with a net underspend against projections and as a tax payer I would be delighted if public bodies were able to achieve an underspend, or sponsor more activity - isn't that a win-win?
That said, I do appreciate that the job of the funder is to spend the money, and having some left over looks like inefficiency to some managers. It's a funny old world.
ben
Ben Johnson
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From: psci-com: on public engagement with
science [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Melanie Knetsch (ESRC, PCD)
Sent: 07 February 2013 12:10
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [PSCI-COM] Question for Evaluators
Hi Ben
The Vat is an interesting point that I struggle with as a 'funder'.
Eg we have a maximum budget for this evaluation of £6k. Do you then recommend that we advertise the amount as £5k which will create the level playing field and enable VAT to be included?
The challenge that this may leave us is with an underspend on the budget, but I welcome your thoughts on if think this is fairer option.
Melanie
Melanie Knetsch
Deputy Head Communications Team
ESRC
Polaris House
North Star House
Swindon
SN2 1UJ
+44 (0)1793 413049
From: Ben Johnson [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2013 11:36 AM
To: [log in to unmask] <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: [PSCI-COM] Question for Evaluators
Hi Bruce and all,
The biggest problem i have at the moment is the phrase "inclusive of any VAT". VAT is not an income tax for registered bodies; it is a tax on transactions. Therefore, when
you advertise a fee as 6000 including any VAT you are saying that the fee is 5000 for VAT registered bodies and 6000 for non-registered bodies (such as Universities). This is unfair for us and actually bad value for you.
My other perennial complaints are:
Getting involved too late in the process - sometimes after the activity has been completed and the evaluator is called in to validate what has already been done and add an appearance of "external" scrutiny.
Project managers who don't have clearly defined Aims AND Objectives against which to benchmark delivery of the project.
A general lack of imagination, both in terms of methodology and the role of evaluation. Clients often specify exactly what they want, leaving no room for creative input from the contractor or else are so vague
the contractor cannot identify their needs. Ultimately, evaluation should be about learning, not auditing the activity to keep the funder off your back.
Hope this helps
ben
Ben Johnson
Graphic Science
Part of The Training Group - Supporting public engagement in the research community
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-----Original Message-----
From: psci-com: on public engagement with science [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Bruce Etherington
Sent: 06 February 2013 12:44
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [PSCI-COM] Question for Evaluators
Hi,
Also as part of our Schools Partnership, we will be looking for an external evaluator for the programme. We will be putting out a document that describes what we are looking for, but before we do so:
What information do evaluators want to see in calls for evaluation work?
Is there anything that you hate to see or that makes your job difficult?
(I'll collate the replies and create an anonymised summary as I expect this will be useful to others)
Thanks for your help
Bruce
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