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And there may be some for officers of good family in the odd cathedral. I believe there is one for a subaltern in Salisbury Cathedral, who died early in the War, so that may have gone up before a policy had been decided. Tim ___________ Tim Connell Professor Emeritus City University ___________ 07754 48 46 52 ________________________________________ From: Christopher Newbould [[log in to unmask]] Sent: 06 January 2013 17:39 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: War graves It is certainly true that one of the earliest principles of the War Graves Commission was that all of our dead would be treated the same, with no private memorials being permitted. That principle was adhered to throughout both World Wars. There are a few exceptions that can be found in war cemeteries that are near former Base areas, where it is clear that old habits died hard. At Etaples War Cemetery for example, although all ranks have the same headstone, the officers have been buried together, separate from the men and on slightly higher ground. I always find this rather sad when I go there. Yours Christopher Colonel CJ Newbould CBE Battlefield tours & lectures "Bringing the Past to Life" www.spiritofremembrance.com -----Original Message----- From: To exchange information and views on the life and work of Rudyard Kipling [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of IMAP AIM Sent: 06 January 2013 11:57 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: War graves Pinney has a useful note to a letter in Vol 5, p.18 >> the plans of the War Graves Commission, since they had become generally known at the end of 1918, had provoked a determined oppostion to 3 main points: the provision of a headstone rather than a cross; uniformity of treatment for all graves; and the refusal to allow repatriation of the remains. The conflict came to a head in the parliamentary debate of 4 May 1920, when the policies of the Commission were affirmed. >> The letter itself, to Col. Lewin, shows Kipling standing behind the Commission's policies. He notes particularly that equality of treatment 'confirms and admits equality of sorrow' -- which forms the principle that he, no democrat, holds to, in this situation. John Lee On 6 Jan 2013, at 11:39, Richards, David wrote: > I thought Kipling's contribution on this question was rather to stand firm with his IWG Commission colleagues behind the proposition that officers and other ranks would have the same uniform, individual grave marker, instead of allowing different headstones or markers by rank, and instead of shipping officers' bodies home (as was done I believe early in the war, before the scale of the slaughter was known and made that economically improbable even for recoverable bodies) and leaving other ranks to lie abroad. > > See my bibliography for the discovery of Kipling's preface to the Cook's brochure for travel to the battlefields of Belgium and France, which were really cemetery tourism for the widows, parents, siblings and orphans of the dead. > > Dave Richards > > From: To exchange information and views on the life and work of Rudyard Kipling [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Alastair Wilson > Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2013 4:19 AM > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: War graves > > I don't know the answer to Fred's specific question, but I would think that it was pretty generally a 'given' that all were buried together. So far as I am aware, in earlier wars, all the dead were buried together, usually in common graves (you can't go and visit the individual grave of a five-greats-grandfather who died at Waterloo). So when the IWG Commission was formed, I suspect that it was already in the terms of reference that the dead from one area would all be buried in a single cemetery - but I don't know. > It is quite instructive to look at how differently different parishes recorded their dead. Many, possibly the majority, just recorded their names, in alphabetical order. Others recorded their names in alphabetical order, but recorded also their rank or rating, and sometimes their regiment or ship. And a few (the parish church which I attended when I was growing up was one), recorded the officers first, followed by the men. > Alastair Wilson > > > On 06/01/2013 00:16, Fred Lerner wrote: > A colleague asks, "Do you know if it was Kipling's idea to bury the men and officers together rather than in separate places, in contrast for example to their separate hospitalizations in England?" > > I don't, but I expect that someone on this list will. > > Fred Lerner > > > __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 7864 (20130105) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. > > http://www.eset.com > > > > This email message from the law firm of McCarter & English, LLP is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply email and destroy all copies of the original message. >