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Dear all - I wasn't going to post anything at all more in this thread but I just wish to point out that I haven't posted anything since the 13th - 4 days ago. I was having a mental firestorm last week and this was only a part of it. I had by late on the 13th, a little before Anthony's post, decided to go silent. Anything to do with poetry is of little help in crisis I'm afraid. On 16 December 2012 17:44, Tilla Brading <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > ... at last! Thanks Ian, I was going to ask it to end by saying, 'Might a > woman step between them?' > Cheers, > Tilla > . > > > > > On 15 Dec 2012, at 09:08, ian davidson wrote: > > Dear All >> >> I have been away for a few days and only just picked up this exchange. >> >> The list should not be used for personal attacks. We might have strong >> views about poetry, and the ways it is supported and distributed, but that >> should not spill over into attacks on individuals, present or absent. >> >> Ian Davidson >> >> >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> On 14 Dec 2012, at 20:57, "Pam Thompson" <[log in to unmask]> wrote: >> >> >>> >>> >>> >>> On 14 Dec 2012, at 15:08, "Jamie McKendrick" <[log in to unmask]> >>> wrote: >>> >>> Antony is right to protest at the list being used for this kind of >>>> exchange. I have to take some responsibility, although I replied civilly to >>>> the first taunt from David, his second achieved its presumably desired >>>> effect. >>>> For reasons surprisingly close to Jeffrey's (though Dylan as a great >>>> poet - rather than a brilliant songwriter?), I’m not troubled by David’s >>>> account of me as a minor poet, even if the remark by MacDiarmid seems too >>>> crass and snobbish to be worth quoting, let alone sourcing. Yet I wonder >>>> about this for two reasons. First, is that in the five or so years of >>>> contributing I have never made disparaging remarks about anyone’s poems on >>>> this list – whether the poets were present to defend themselves or not. And >>>> second, I've never mentioned my own books or translations (with the single >>>> exception of a translation of a Pasolini verse play). Had I in any way >>>> promoted my own work here, or even referenced or submitted any particular >>>> poem, I would see it as a more legitimate target for attack. Not that >>>> there’s anything wrong with anyone doing so, but as this is not the case, I >>>> consider it especially petty and provocative. Though of course I could have >>>> done, I have not replied in kind. >>>> What I object to more strongly are the unsubstantiated aspersions >>>> and generalized slurs that I’ve now received on more than one occasion from >>>> David – of dishonesty, of political association, and now of ‘social >>>> placement’ (which I take to be a reference to class prejudice) – wrapped in >>>> lofty rhetoric, never quite fully articulated and therefore never easy to >>>> confront. These really seem to me one of the banes of internet literary >>>> life, and I’m curious as to whether the list thinks this is ok, or even has >>>> some kind of procedure to deter it. Why I think it should be discouraged is >>>> that it leads almost inevitably to this kind of exchange which is futile >>>> and irritating for others to witness, and decidedly unpleasant to engage in. >>>> >>>> In this instance, I think David is quite entitled to attack anything >>>> I’ve actually written or argued but should not be at liberty to air these >>>> kind of vague but damaging imputations - based now, for the second time, on >>>> a general and oracular view of my character as revealed to him by my posts. >>>> We all, I’m sure, make assumptions about each other, but for a discussion >>>> to proceed in any interesting way responses have to be anchored not in >>>> these assumptions but in what has actually been said. If I am alone in >>>> believing this, then this list is obviously not the place for me to be. >>>> (Perhaps it never was, but I’ve found quite a few of the discussions >>>> informative and stimulating, and I have been treated here, for the most >>>> part, with respect and generosity by poets who may well not approve of my >>>> aesthetics or, for that matter, my work.) >>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: Anthony Barnett >>>>> To: [log in to unmask]**AC.UK<[log in to unmask]> >>>>> Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2012 8:02 PM >>>>> Subject: Re: Mouldering in my grave >>>>> >>>>> Please stop this. The list is not the place for this. In private >>>>> please. Thank you. >>>>> >>>>> Anthony Barnett >>>>> http://www.abar.net >>>>> >>>>> Tilla Brading > Shiplap (Flat 2) > 43, Quay St > Minehead, > TA24 5UL > > 01643 708160 > -- David Joseph Bircumshaw ** Website and A Chide's Alphabet http://www.staplednapkin.org.uk The Animal Subsides http://www.arrowheadpress.co.uk/books/animal.html Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/david.bircumshaw twitter: http://twitter.com/bucketshave blog: http://groggydays.blogspot.com/ Leicester Poetry Society: http://www.poetryleicester.com