Jenny indeed raises some excellent points.
Not wishing to put cat amongst pigeons (again) but it would still be really helpful if the whole licensing/charging/supply issue could be looked at across the board. It’s still the case that charges are highly variable, from nothing to a day rate that equates to best part of £1000/day. Some include explicit licenses to use data, some homebrew licenses and some (inappropriate) OS licenses which preclude certain (essential) use scenarios. Some don’t bother with licensing at all. VAT is variably applicable depending on who provided what advice. Not to mention data quality; some is good to go, some requires considerable man handling to make something of it. Turnaround is similarly variable, some HERs doing it on the spot and others taking eons to supply which as Jenny points out can be problematic when we have tight deadlines. Some contractors also apparently bypass charges by visiting and using the public access facilities.
All this makes it complicated to cost for and undertake work as obtaining HER data is so variable depending on where the job is. Clients are often confused when one job costs much less/more than another as a result of this situation.
I understand the idea of exempting HER data from OS licensing through the formal OS exemption procedure is actively being looked at and I would wholeheartedly support this; one less complexity to deal with. Some HERs have moved on this already which is fantastic. Of course, this would not preclude some charge for use of the data if that is seen as best option but let’s have some parity here please.
I’ve copied my previous post on this topic below for information and hopefully some discussion as to how best to move forward on this.
As I write previously:
Worms indeed...
Not wishing to throw in more worms, and any names below have been changed to protect the innocent, but...
It would be great if a national policy could be implemented. Currently there is enormous variation in what HER/SMRs charge, for what and also what they can supply. Some do not charge, some charge nominal fees to cover costs, some charge hundreds of pounds (!), some charge additional fees on top for licenses to use the data supplied.
At the same time, the nature of the information supplied is incredibly variable. This ranges from well structured digital data (GIS, tabular, XML) requiring minimal handling to some unstructured information in a pdf or word document, possibly even a jpg, requiring considerable manual handling.
Timescales for supplying information also vary considerably, up to many weeks in some cases which for rapid turnaround projects is problematic.
So, as an end user, we have to factor in the up front costs levied by each HER/SMR for conducting a query (= highly variable), any additional costs (eg for licensing; again variable) plus time taken this end to turn the information provided into something useable for assessment/analysis/reporting ( = highly variable, dependent on what is supplied).
A national Service Level Agreement (SLA) type approach could provide a level playing field against which contractors could operate. It could define:
* What data can/should be provided and in what format (GIS + MidasXML would seem logical, leveraging existing standards)
* Timescales in which a response can be expected including options for fast track searches
* Costs and associated licensing, VAT-ability, etc
Now, really not wishing to put cat amongst pigeons but...
It has also been noted here that the HER/SMRs who are less capable of providing structured data are also often those who take longer and charge more... Perhaps indicative of how the HER/SMR operates, with those operating more functional systems being able to respond quicker with more useable output for end users and hence lower costs due to it taking less time to deal with enquiries...?
I would welcome the thoughts of the forum on the idea of some nationally agreed standards.
Kind regards,
Paul.
From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
On Behalf Of Chris Webster
Sent: 14 November 2012 10:40
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: HER Charges
Jenny makes some good points. The normal HER search, given a GIS polygon, takes me about 10 minutes and the number of records produced is irrelevant. They are usually turned round the same day and we don't charge. If HERs are to create income, this all points towards the idea of licensing the use of the data - it has cost the HERs a large amount of money to accumulate and manage it to this point.
Chris Webster
Historic Environment Record
Somerset County Council
Somerset Heritage Centre
Brunel Way
Taunton
TA2 6SF
01823 347434
Online HER: www.somerset.gov.uk/her
From: Issues related to Historic Environment
Records [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
On Behalf Of Jenny Hall
Sent: 14 November 2012 10:26
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: HER Charges: North Somerset
.......£100 per hour...does that mean the person doing enquiries gets £4000 a week - £208000 a year? Or does it take four people on £52000 a year to do each enquiry?..........
I completely support that costs need to be covered for a persons time to do the enquiry, plus any extra such as time to raise an invoice etc, but surely £100 an hour is way beyond cost-recovery and on the way to making of a rather large profit for the service provided.
Given that the HER for an area is a monopoly so we have no choice in which provider we use, and that the HER has to be consulted for certain types of work, this very high cost sometimes feels unfair. Having paid large sums for an enquiry, when we get back data which is wrongly located, misinterpreted, or with duplicate records for the same site, or with no description, as often happens, we start to get a bit grumpy. Adding in that the enquiry will be done within 10 working days (or 20 days in one area we work in) when our client requires us to have completed within a week and things really start to rankle.
Thinking about why archaeological contractors are charged when others aren't, is it because they are making money? If so then the processing of the enquiry has to be timely and purposeful in order for the contractor to be able to make that money. Data that arrives after the work is supposed to be finished, or that takes longer to tidy up than looking for new sites is not the service that contractors should expect for the amount charged.
We always want to give added value back to the HER and will often return a database as well as the report to help things along. We wonder what would happen if we charged £100 for the database and report to be returned to the HER. We may be required to return new information to the HERs but I don't believe that anything says it has to be for free.
I remember all the pressures within an HER/SMR and know it isn't easy but such high costs seem to be unreasonable and if the HERs weren't monopolies the charges would not stand up to market pressures.
Jenny
Ex SMR Officer - now a "contractor"
----- Original Message -----
From: [log in to unmask]"> Vince Russett
Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2012 8:30 AM
Subject: Re: HER Charges: North Somerset
Hi Stuart!
Vince here: we curently charge £100 per hour for searches, with a guaranteed level of search. We may be increasing this in the new financial year.
Vince (and Daniel Smith, HER Officer)
Vince Russett
County Archaeologist
Development Management Group
North Somerset Council
Our Historic Environment Record is now on-line: Go to the North Somerset web site (http://www.n-somerset.gov.uk) then use the tabs Environment / Conservation / Archaeology/ Historic Environment Record. Enjoy!
Landline: 01934 426456
Mobile: 07919 265645
Please note my work hours are usually 8am to 4pm
From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of CAKEBREAD, Stuart
Sent: 13 November 2012 16:52
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: HER Charges: Suffolk
Hi Colin,
Sorry about that, and thanks for getting back to me so quickly.
Regards,
Stuart
Stuart Cakebread | Greater London Historic Environment Record Manager
Direct Line: 0207 973 3731
English Heritage | London Planning
1 Waterhouse Square | 138-142 Holborn
London | EC1N 2ST
Please see our website:
http://www.english-heritage.org.uk/glaas
From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Colin Pendleton
Sent: 13 November 2012 16:49
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: FW: HER Charges: SuffolkStuart,
same as in 2010 for Suffolk but as it was blank on your form have re-completed. Likely to see some change in near future eg, licensing and charging some local authorites (currently under discussion).
Colin Pendleton
From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of CAKEBREAD, Stuart
Sent: 13 November 2012 15:43
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: HER ChargesAfternoon All,
As we in the Greater London HER are thinking of reviewing our search charges, and there is a discussion on HER charging policies at the next HERForum meeting, I was thinking that it was an ideal time to update the HER charging data in the JISCmail file area. I've attached a spreadsheet which combines the data from the 2010 and 2007 surveys, I can't seem to open the 2009 survey, and added a couple of new data fields which I've highlighted in italics. Could you please have a look at the spreadsheet and either email me ([log in to unmask]) your updated information or let me know if there has been no change. I'll then update a master spreadsheet and try and get it ready in time for the December meeting.
Thanks for your help,
Stuart
Stuart Cakebread | Greater London Historic Environment Record Manager
Direct Line: 0207 973 3731
English Heritage | London Planning
1 Waterhouse Square | 138-142 Holborn
London | EC1N 2ST
Please see our website:
http://www.english-heritage.org.uk/glaas
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