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Hugh said:
“For what it's worth, I do think that there should be a nationally set charge with a choice of whether to charge or not, both to reduce pressure on staff to justify their charging levels and to give a more coordinated appearance to the profession.” – hear hear!!
And to pick up Jenny and Vince’s points on advice, we very often just receive data, no associated advice. Which is fine, as we can always ask specific local questions that arise through our work with the data using our own expertise, going back to the HERs as needed. But this would not be the norm so being charged for this seems out of the usual scope of the service. Quite happy to pay something towards cost of maintaining data, that goes without saying and I would strongly support anything that reinforces the position of HERs as the definitive heritage record with associated service provisions, but my argument is that the current state of play for commercial access is too complicated and unpredictable; for example, even with the previous statements/clarifications on VAT this is still variably applied, and that should be an easy standardisation to make.
Even if HER data is exempted from OS licensing (which I would argue should be done forthwith) to make licensing more straightforward, the data produced by the HER could still presumably be covered by a charge for an HER license to use said data, it being OS derived but OS license free, yet still covered by HER copyright / database rights as originators of the data. This would be far easier to standardise than time. This figure could be based on full economic costings of maintenance or whatever but ought to be widely applicable and justifiable. Could even (in theory) be used as a lever to access funds to improve the record and associated systems through cost benefit analysis of efficiency (ie by investing a bit, the parent organisation would actually save money in the longer term).
I think charging for time spent is more problematic as some HERs have excellent IT resources and are very efficient whereas others are much less able, for a whole range of reasons, many of which beyond their control. So it may take one HER considerably longer to supply than others, largely because their system and procedures are more convoluted. I have also noticed an inverse correlation between taking ages to supply and quality of data, with HERs who have more efficient systems and more resources to hand apparently better able to manage and improve the quality of their data more effectively too.
Just some thoughts…
Paul.
From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
On Behalf Of Jenny Hall
Sent: 19 November 2012 10:37
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: HER Charges
So long as you don't say it is cost recovery that is okay, but seeing what others charge and comparing to other services/professions suggest it's not cost recovery but a mix of what can be got away with (easier when you are a monopoly) and what the neighbours are doing.
You can compare to others to see if they charge at all, although at the end of the day it is up to your department to decide whether a charge is made or not.
HERs are largely created and maintained by public money so they are in essence paid for by taxpayers, which include companies and businesses, so you can argue that they ought to free for all to use as all have paid, and it is a matter of choice whether people or businesses use them or not.
However if you accept that that is the ideal world, and that in cash-strapped times savings have to be made, then charging for the time a person takes to retrieve information for you, not the information itself and therefore not any maintenance or updating costs, is reasonable, but did all ought to be charged then? I know from experience that an enquiry from a member of the public can take far longer than a "commercial" enquiry, particularly if they visit in person, so should the rest of the public subsidise one person is taking an officers time for half a day or more? Just a thought...
One of the things missing from this debate is really the customers point of view about the service that is wanted.
----- Original Message -----
From: [log in to unmask]">Simon Walton
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2012 10:12 AM
Subject: Re: HER Charges
All,
To put HER charges in to context it might be useful to collate what other separate public sector record collections e.g. Library, family research, local history charge for collation and searching.
Regards
Simon
>>> "Winfield, Hugh" <[log in to unmask]> 19/11/2012 10:03 >>>Rob et al,
Some of us are already in the private sector :p
I still don't charge here, despite being reduced to a 4 day week, because as part of the planning/development management department I can only charge if the rest of the department charges for the same type of information (i.e. pre-application advice), and both the elected members and executive officers are strongly opposed to introducing pre-application charges - and as the partner/client of the Council we cannot go against their wishes. I also avoided charging in the past as the HER wasn't too well developed and updated, but that isn't true anymore.
For what it's worth, I do think that there should be a nationally set charge with a choice of whether to charge or not, both to reduce pressure on staff to justify their charging levels and to give a more coordinated appearance to the profession.
Hugh
Hugh Winfield
Archaeologist and Historic Environment Record Officer
Development Management
Origin One, Origin Way
Europarc, Grimsby
North East Lincolnshire
DN37 9TZ
Tel: (01472) 32 3586 Fax: (01472) 32 4216Access maps of the Archaeological and Historic sites, buildings and monuments in North East Lincolnshire here: http://isharemaps.nelincs.gov.uk/mynelc.aspx
From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of EDWARDS, Robert (Environment)
Sent: 15 November 2012 10:52
To: Winfield, Hugh
Subject: Re: HER ChargesHi all,
I thought I might add my tuppence to the debate. As I’m sure the majority of us are aware, in the present financial and political climate local authorities are radically re-evaluating how services are delivered and funded. Authorities are seriously questioning the fundamentals of service delivery:
a) Should services be subsidised by those who do not use them?
b) Where possible services will be cost neutral; service users should expect to pay.
c) Who can deliver the service most (cost) effectively?
d) Do we have to provide the service?
Over the next few years I think we will see a much more diverse range of organisations providing HE services, including the private sector. And, although it will be the role of these organisations to provide HE information and advice, it will not be seen as the Local Authority’s business rate or council tax payer’s responsibility to fund that service (unless they are a service user). Unfortunately, I suspect that charging will become more prevalent and charges higher. For example, you might like to take a look at some of the charges now levied for pre-application planning advice for comparison:
£40 p/hr is beginning to look a bargain ;)
Best wishes
Rob
Rob Edwards
Historic Environment Records Officer
Cheshire Archaeology Planning Advisory Service
Tel: 01244 973667
Location: The Forum, Chester, Cheshire, CH1 2HS.
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