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I would add to this that the importance of being able to contribute to society and for this contribution to be valued and taken seriously. I think one of the ways in which disabled people are made dependent is by being forced to be passive recipients rather than also considered as people who contribute and do things for other people. I would suggest that one of the difference between social model approaches to independence and interdependence is the difference in focus being in a position to make choices about your own life and being able to contribute to society and for this to be valued. However, these two aspects are complementary, not in competition. Marion On 21/11/2012 02:27, Pauline Boyles [CCDHB] wrote: > Apologies I just picked up this discussion. The concept of interdependence is > key to general understanding of what creates dsiabilty for people. > What all people need and crave for is a*utonomy* rather than a typical > definition of independence. IIndependence is optional for most people who do > not experience disability and they generally choose interdependence. > No matter how significant ones impairment and how dependent one is for support > for others to eat speak live etc.all deserve the opportunity to make decsisns > and have control over ones own life. The more significant ones impairemt(s) the > more likely one is to be disabled by lack of choice and to be dependent on the > choices and avialability of others for support. > The above is fundamental to all disablement whether at all levels and the belief > in the rights of human beings at individual, systemic and governmental levels > We still have a long way to go in spite of the UN Convention on the Rights of > Disabled People signed by New Zealand in 2008. Here there is still no > legislation to embed the convention therefore it is still optional > ** > /*Pauline*/ > /**/ > /*Dr Pauline Boyles*/ > /*Senior Disability Advisor*/ > /*Funding and Planning Directorate*/ > /*Level 12*/ > /*Grace Neill Block*/ > /*Wellington Hospital*/ > /*Extension 82436*/ > /*Mobile 027 545 4394*/ > /*DDI 04 806 2436*/ > /**/ > /**/ > // > *//* > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > *From:* The Disability-Research Discussion List > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] *On Behalf Of *Maria > *Sent:* Sunday, 11 November 2012 12:13 > *To:* [log in to unmask] > *Subject:* Re: independence / interdependence > *Importance:* High > > Sorry, maybe I was unclear in my message, by no means did I mean to say that the > social model was no longer relevant. In fact in this side of the world (Quebec) > we have not yet experienced it. And only in the last 5 years have we found a > term that can express just that “ person en situation d’handicap “ which denotes > that the situations we live with are disabling. > > *From:*The Disability-Research Discussion List > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] *On Behalf Of *Jenny Morris > *Sent:* November 10, 2012 6:44 AM > *To:* [log in to unmask] > *Subject:* Re: independence / interdependence > > Here's a blogpost which says it all about why the social model and the term > 'disabled people' are still as relevant as ever > http://m.xojane.com/issues/i-am-not-a-person-with-a-disability-i-am-a-disabled-person > > Sent from my iPad > > > On 10 Nov 2012, at 11:39, Maria <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote: > > Hi Paul > > As I said , in my younger days, I was a critique of the term. > > Although, I agree and nowhere more than my city, are barriers still so > evident. I do see some small changes, especially, both in attitude and > taking control of the situations, among the younger people with > disabilities. Perhaps not today, yet, we a little more liberated than when > I was a disable child. > > If I think, and I suspect if Oliver's generation of disabled people – > reflects on how we were in the 1960-70 to today, we can say progress is > happening. Partly, due to the efforts of that generation (as slow as it is) > some change toward liberation is here. Thus, we should say ‘people with > disabilities’ and think liberation > > *From:*Paul Swann [mailto:[log in to unmask]] > *Sent:* November 9, 2012 5:45 AM > *To:* Maria ; [log in to unmask] > <mailto:[log in to unmask]> > *Subject:* RE: independence / interdependence > > Hi Maria, > > In these days of increasing commodification of disability, the term > “consumer” has distinctly capitalist connotations. > > “People with disability” is another contested term from a Social Model > perspective, and does not equate to a “liberated group” since it locates > disability in an individual’s impairments, rather than recognising that > social barriers are the real disabling factor, thus making it a collective > responsibility. > > In my view, Mike Oliver & Colin Barnes’ book “The New Politics of > Disablement” should be required reading for all disability researchers. > > http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Politics-Disablement-Michael-Oliver/dp/0333945670/ref=ntt_at_ep_dpt_4 > > Regards, > > Paul > > *From:*Maria [mailto:[log in to unmask]] > *Sent:* 09 November 2012 10:33 > *To:* Paul Swann; [log in to unmask] > <mailto:[log in to unmask]> > *Subject:* RE: independence / interdependence > > Hi Paul, > > Lots of people these days, are put off by the word consumers. How do you > understand that word? > > A bit of history, as I recall it. > > Back in the days of Zola ‘s independent living(1970-1990) > > The term “Consumer” meant, that persons with disabilities had to have the > means(financial included to make choices).the term is bit capitalist, I > admit. And did some critique of it myself. In retrospect, I think, in the > end if people’s choices are determined by what government and bureaucracy > decided that is needed; we are not independent or interdependent. That is > true regardless of who we are, but more so as “disabled person” (oppress > group). Consumers in sense of having the means to have choices allows us > to become “ people with disability” (liberated group). > > *From:*The Disability-Research Discussion List > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] *On Behalf Of *Paul Swann > *Sent:* November 9, 2012 3:24 AM > *To:* [log in to unmask] > <mailto:[log in to unmask]> > *Subject:* Re: independence / interdependence > > The word “Consumers” in that title is enough to put me off! > > *From:*The Disability-Research Discussion List > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] *On Behalf Of *LILITH Finkler > *Sent:* 08 November 2012 15:13 > *To:* [log in to unmask] > <mailto:[log in to unmask]> > *Subject:* Re: independence / interdependence > > HI Marion. This might be helpful. > > White G., Simpson J., Gonda C., Ravesloot C. and Coble Z. ( 2010) Moving > from Independence to Interdependence: A Conceptual Model for Better > Understanding Community Participation of Centres for Independent Living > Consumers/. Journal of Disability Policy Studies,/ 2(4) :233-240. > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2012 03:08:50 +0000 > From: [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> > Subject: Re: independence / interdependence > To: [log in to unmask] > <mailto:[log in to unmask]> > > Does anyone have any references for discussion of the differences between > interdependence and independence? I also suspect there may be cultural > factors, with more collectivist cultures preferring interdependence and more > individualist cultures focusing on independence. > Marion > > On 05/11/2012 12:21, Tsitsi Chataika wrote: > > This is an interesting discussion. I am one person who is against the notion of > > 'independent'. I prefer the term 'interdependent' since we all depend on each > > other. Hence to expect that disabled people should be independent is to dispute > > the concept of 'ubuntu'. I am what I am because of other people. This is the way > > to go. I am still yet to see an independent person. In any case, what is > > independence? Is anyone independent. We rely on other people in order to fulfill > > our own obligations. Kate has itemised some of them. Even to go on a trip, one > > has to rely on visa coming on time; the taxi driver coming on time; the mood > > of immigration official, and the pilot taking them from point A to B. The > > concept of ubuntu suggests that we are all here because of other people, and > > therefore we should embrace and celebrate diversity. > > > > Tsitsi > > > > > > On 2 November 2012 06:00, Judy Mckenzie <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> > > <mailto:[log in to unmask]> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote: > > > > __ > > This is a really critical topic and seems to find itself at odds with much > > of the human rights rhetoric around disability. This is unfortunate as care > > and dependency are real issues for everybody. I think Kittay's work provides > > a good framework for thinking about this within the broader theories of an > > ethics of care. > > Eva Feder Kittay (1999) Loves Labor. Routledge. New York. I would love to > > hear from others on the list who are using this approach. > > Judy > > Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > *From: * Kate Kaul <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> <mailto:[log in to unmask]> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> > > *Sender: * The Disability-Research Discussion List > > <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> > > <mailto:[log in to unmask]> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> > > *Date: *Thu, 1 Nov 2012 18:55:49 -0400 > > *To: *<[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> > > <mailto:[log in to unmask]> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> > > *ReplyTo: * Kate Kaul <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> <mailto:[log in to unmask]> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> > > *Subject: *Re: independence / interdependence > > > > I would take this further; today, for example, I relied on city workers to > > clean up storm debris, municipal workers to maintain (kind of) the road I > > bump my cargo trike along, a teacher and school staff to care for my > > six-year-old, the staff of a Y facility to run the facility and to care for > > my one-year-old while my partner exercised, the invisible actions of > > various service providers to keep me online, connected by telephone and > > setup with electricity, water and gas here at my home -- and on and on. > > It's obvious and largely accepted that different people need different > > levels of some public services; other people pay a lot to educate my son, > > for example. It's interesting where people decide to draw the line and how > > sure so many people are about drawing it. > > regards, > > Kate > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > *From:* LILITH Finkler<mailto:[log in to unmask]> <mailto:[log in to unmask]> > > *To:*[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> > > <mailto:[log in to unmask]> <mailto:[log in to unmask]> > > *Sent:* Thursday, November 01, 2012 6:07 PM > > *Subject:* independence / interdependence > > > > Dear Colleagues; Can anyone suggest a critique of the notion of > > "independence" vis a vis > > disability? To me, it seems unfair to presume that disabled persons be > > "independent" > > when many non-disabled persons "depend" on house cleaners, nannies, > > gardeners, > > butlers, an entire assortment of "assistants". Any thoughts? Thanks, Lilith > > ________________End of message________________ > > > > This Disability-Research Discussion list is managed by the Centre for > > Disability Studies at the University of Leeds > > (www.leeds.ac.uk/disability-studies <http://www.leeds.ac.uk/disability-studies> > > <http://www.leeds.ac.uk/disability-studies> <http://www.leeds.ac.uk/disability-studies>). > > > > Enquiries about list administration should be sent to > > [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> > > <mailto:[log in to unmask]> <mailto:[log in to unmask]> > > > > Archives and tools are located at: > > www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/disability-research.html <http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/disability-research.html> > > <http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/disability-research.html> <http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/disability-research.html> > > > > You can VIEW, POST, JOIN and LEAVE the list by logging in to this web page. > > > > ________________End of message________________ > > > > This Disability-Research Discussion list is managed by the Centre for > > Disability Studies at the University of Leeds > > (www.leeds.ac.uk/disability-studies <http://www.leeds.ac.uk/disability-studies> > > <http://www.leeds.ac.uk/disability-studies> <http://www.leeds.ac.uk/disability-studies>). > > > > Enquiries about list administration should be sent to > > [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> > > <mailto:[log in to unmask]> <mailto:[log in to unmask]> > > > > Archives and tools are located at: > > www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/disability-research.html <http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/disability-research.html> > > <http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/disability-research.html> <http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/disability-research.html> > > > > You can VIEW, POST, JOIN and LEAVE the list by logging in to this web page. > > ________________End of message________________ > > > > This Disability-Research Discussion list is managed by the Centre for > > Disability Studies at the University of Leeds > > (www.leeds.ac.uk/disability-studies <http://www.leeds.ac.uk/disability-studies> > > <http://www.leeds.ac.uk/disability-studies> <http://www.leeds.ac.uk/disability-studies>). > > > > Enquiries about list administration should be sent to > > [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> > > <mailto:[log in to unmask]> <mailto:[log in to unmask]> > > > > Archives and tools are located at: > > www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/disability-research.html <http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/disability-research.html> > > <http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/disability-research.html> <http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/disability-research.html> > > > > You can VIEW, POST, JOIN and LEAVE the list by logging in to this web page. > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Dr Tsitsi Chataika > > Department of Educational Foundations > > University of Zimbabwe > > Faculty of Education > > P.O. 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