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Nicely
articulated, Fabian and Deveon!
Thanks,
Caroline
-----Original Message-----
From:
Sent: 24 November 2012 13:45
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: an African descent British army officer prior to Walter Tull
I
too would question the value of twenty first century eyes peering at photographs
to evaluate whether people "appear white". In fact one of the
problems
of enforcing apartheid and other racial segregated social systems is that the
boundaries are difficult to police. In some areas, such as
categorisation
in force in
The
invention of the Afrikaans as a racial category revolved to a great extent around
language, and in particular how a creole language cased on
Dutch
developed with the appearance of mass produced newspapers which could vary in
how the used language etc. Confronted with an ethnic continuum amongst the
Afrikaanse speaking communities, the architects of the new racial category
sought the establishment of a racial category broader enough to represent an
electoral challenge to the English speakers, but still excluding a substantial
number of Afrikaanse speakers
they
could call "coloureds".
Gerald
Horne's "Race War: White Supremacy and The Japanese Attack on the
So
let us not add further confusion to an area which through its very irrationality
must perforce be riddled with confusion by adding a further
layer
of speculation.
all
the best
Fabian
>
Looks can be deceiving and names are also not a very good guide to a persons
ethnic or racial antecedents! Many people with mixed
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backgrounds ˜passed as their route ˜up and out during these times.
>
>
D. Thomas
>
>
Co-ordinator, Pepys Heritage Centre
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Chair of the Black Heritage Group
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07535 500 726(mobile)
>
From:
>
On Behalf Of Peter B Freshwater MA, DipLib, FSA Scot
>
Sent: 23 November 2012 18:33
>
To: [log in to unmask]
>
Subject: Re: an African descent British army officer prior to Walter Tull
>
>
Just one caveat over this stream of identities, in that, of course, some West
Indians were White. I have two, dead, in the
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WW1 Roll of Honour:
>
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George Staunton HUSBAND, from
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From their photographs they both appear to be White.
>
>
And there were others, whose names are European, among serving officers who
fought and survived the War. The photographs of those who served and survived
do not appear in the published Roll of Honour, so there is nothing here to
indicate their ethnic origins. I am systematically
>
collecting their names from the alphabetical list, for further research.
>
>
Peter
>
> Peter B Freshwater MA, DipLib, FSA Scot
>
>
>
EH12 5QQ
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Tel. +44(0)131 337 7049
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Email: [log in to unmask]
>
>
On 23/11/2012 16:23, Susan Bolton / Jeffrey Green wrote:
>
>
There were black British soldiers in the British army in WWII so Marika
>
needs to adjust her focus in her planned book - Stephen Bourne's recent
>
The Motherland Calls (History Press, 2012) details some.
>
>
Cyril Charles Alcindor, the son of Dr John Alcindor, was a regular soldier
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in the 1930s and on 24 March 1944 he was commissioned as a 2nd Lt in the
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Bedfordshire and Hertfordshire Regiment (Army List 1945, p 1596). At the
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time of his death in 1936 he was a Captain. He was born in
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rather dark-skinned. His brother served in REME and Roland Alcindor, the
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youngest brother, flew in the RAF (including flying Lord Mountbatten in
>
>
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There is a strong suggestion that in the elite infantry group which seized
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Pegasus bridge in the small hours of the morning of D Day (6 June 1944)
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included an infantryman nicknamed "Darkie".
>
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Leslie Thompson, born
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ex-West
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is shown in
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Island (Northway Press, 2009). I lent the photograph to Stephen Bourne for
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his book.
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>
Jeff
>
>
>
>
========================================
>
Message Received: Nov 23 2012, 12:58 PM
>
From: "msherwood"
>
To: [log in to unmask]
>
Cc:
>
Subject: Re: an African descent British army officer prior to Walter Tull
>
>
>
>
>
I dont think the ‘Pure European descent’ was lifted
in WWII. I know of
>
no Black British soldiers in the British army at all – except for
the
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medical folk already mentioned. Moody’s non-medical son was sent
to the
>
>
short of men with suitable qualifications. And then of ‘ground
crew’,
>
so some 5,000 men were imported from the ‘West
Indies’.
>
>
I’m working on a book, World War II: Colonies and
Colonials….. Should
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be ‘out’; fairly soon. Self-published, to keep the
price down.
>
>
From:
>
On Behalf Of BBM/BMC
>
Sent: 23 November 2012 11:27
>
To: [log in to unmask]
>
Subject: Re: an African descent British army officer prior to Walter Tull
>
>
As it's obvious there were African officers before Tull, the distinction
>
pointed out by Marika is a good one to highlight
>
>
It would seem although around the 2nd world war the "European
descent"
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barred the likes of Dr Alcindor, and Dr Moody had to kick up a fuss for
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that criterion to be lifted, in the 19th century African doctors were
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allowed to become officers despite the "European descent" criterion
for
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pragmatic reasons. Unlike Bemand, Horton asserted his Africanness by
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adding Africanus to his name, so the military could be in no doubt that he
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was not of "European descent". Of course, whilst he worked with
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(colonial) European officers and subordinates, he spent most of his
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military life in west Africa
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>
Kwaku
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>
www.TAOBQ.blogspot.com
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>
On 23 Nov 2012, at 08:10, msherwood wrote:
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>
>
>
Very important information. Thank you, dear Jeff.
>
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Of course, even during WWII the colour bar was there – though it
was
>
lifted for the children of Dr Harold Moody (even for the son who was not a
>
doctor) and for a dentist.
>
>
I wonder if we should differentiate between medical officers, who are all
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‘officers’ and those who become officers by rising
through the ranks,
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like Walter Tull.
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