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Hi all - The debates that spark on this forum are always interesting! As a zooarch from a human osteo/evolutionary background, I'm all for Terry's wish for consistency. My experience with bioarchaeology / phys. anthro / medical (human and vet.) / dentistry and zooarchaeology / zoology -- seems to suggest that getting a consistent terminology will be, shall we say, complex? Along those lines, what about changing phalanges terminology to be consistent with human osteo? Ph1 vs. Prox Ph. 3 (or 2...). PP3, IP3, DP3 certainly seems more universal and accurate than PH1, PH2, PH3. Or the use of os coxae rather than pelve? This one I'm not so sure of the argument as to which is 'more accurate' or more useful. But innominate, which is still used in both human and faunal studies should certainly be dropped --- calling it the 'unnamed' bone to protect Victorian sensibilities seems rather silly... But then, the Human osteo/medical terminology is not always consistent between the UK, Europe and the US (let alone other areas). So, an excellent cause, if a difficult achievement. But perhaps, ICAZ could start by holding some discussions to agree a consistent vocabularly for zooarchs and other bioarchs, including human osteos? Then move on the get the physical anthro / zoologocial community involved? Perhaps I'm behind the times and such a thing has already been worked on for the zooarch community? If so, these comments are just based on my personal experience. A reference guide with the varying/comparable terminologies would certainly be useful! Especially when using different existing texts of various origins and dates. The variety of anatomical vocabularly can be overwhelming to new practicioners... Pam Pamela J Cross MSc, Human Osteology & Palaeopathology PhD researcher: Bioarchaeology/archaeozoology Archaeological Sciences, University of Bradford, BD7 1DP UK p.j.cross (at) student.bradford.ac.uk / pajx (at) aol.com _http://www.barc.brad.ac.uk/resstud_Cross.php_ (http://www.barc.brad.ac.uk/resstud_Cross.php) _http://bradford.academia.edu/PamCross_ (http://bradford.academia.edu/PamCross) In a message dated 08/10/2012 17:54:20 GMT Daylight Time, [log in to unmask] writes: Well, since you raise the subject.... I am with Deb on this one. Granted the term 'molar' has taken quite a range of meanings over the years, both technical and vernacular, and yes, Cornwall (who got me started in animal bones) used to talk about 'deciduous molars', but then he was always more at home with bones than with teeth. We accept that some terms that are in vernacular use may have a more restricted technical definition: 'soil' is a good example. Defining molars by their 'grinding' function has a sort of logic when applied to people and badgers, though less so when applied to horses (in which the premolars do just as much grinding) or cats (in which the few molars do not grind at all). So an ontogenic definition, by which premolars have a deciduous precursor and molars sensu stricto are only present in the permanent dentition, seems to me to make an important distinction and to be worth maintaining. And while we are at it, can we persuade our human osteo colleagues (and dentists) to stop referring to the human premolars as 'first/second premolars'? We Old World primates have only 3rd and 4th premolars in each quarter-jaw, having got rid of the 1st and 2nd long, long ago in an evolutionary clade far away. Even the prosimians lack a 1st premolar, and I like to think that I am somewhat derived relative to an Eocene notharctine primate. So what do you think are our chances or getting consistent dental terminology into physical anthropology? Terry Terry O'Connor Professor of Archaeological Science Department of Archaeology, University of York Biology S Block, Heslington, York YO10 5DD +44-1943-328619 _http://www.york.ac.uk/archaeology/staff/academic-staff/terry-oconnor/_ (http://www.york.ac.uk/archaeology/staff/academic-staff/terry-oconnor/) And see the blog at _http://zooarchatyork.wordpress.com/author/zooarchatyork/_ (http://zooarchatyork.wordpress.com/author/zooarchatyork/)