Bernadette I agree that it would be redundant to say "This work-description of (work)-That work" twice. But if the refined designators in Appendix J.2.3 are used, then it is not redundant to say "This work-analysis of (work)-That work" and "This work-commentary on (work)-That work" where This work is both an analysis and commentary on That work. Note that I am assuming the "description of (work)" designator is equivalent to the inverse of FRSAD's "has as subject" relationship. The point you make about unhelpful repetition in records is important, particularly when metadata statements (triples) are being aggregated from multiple sources. As I have suggested, the range and number of such sources is likely to increase. We already have the experimental WorldCat and BNB linked data making duplicate statements, and I think it is inevitable that, say, in 10 years' time there will be hundreds of sources of linked open, but duplicate, metadata about any one bibliographic resource. Libraries will want to use this free metadata, but will have to work out how to reject any duplicated or irrelevant or dodgy statements - provenance (who made the statement, when they made it, and under what context/rules) will become essential information. Cheers Gordon -----Original Message----- From: CIG E-Forum [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Bernadette Mary O'Reilly Sent: 24 October 2012 13:47 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [CIG-E-FORUM] Discussion of record 2 All points accept, but even if each FRBR and FRAD entity has a separate record why would we want to give a work record two links to the same other work for essentially the same relationship (Work A is about Work B)? And even when we have a system where data exists as separate records or in more granular units and is compiled only at the point of delivery, we still have to consider how to deliver a reasonably neat package without unhelpful repetition. Best wishes, Bernadette ******************* Bernadette O'Reilly Catalogue Support Librarian 01865 2-77134 Bodleian Libraries, Osney One Building Osney Mead Oxford OX2 0EW. ******************* -----Original Message----- From: CIG E-Forum [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Gordon Dunsire Sent: 24 October 2012 13:32 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [CIG-E-FORUM] Discussion of record 2 Bernadette and others RDA is most effectively and efficiently used in the first of the RDA Database Implementation Scenarios (http://www.rda-jsc.org/docs/5editor2rev.pdf), where there are separate records for each FRBR and FRAD entity. The records are linked; the most effective and efficient type of link is a machine-readable identifier rather than a human-readable access point. At global scale, this becomes critical as there is no agreed universal and exclusive system for access points. As the document says, RDA data can be expressed in all three scenarios, but this may be less effective and efficient in the second and third scenarios. Unfortunately, those scenarios are the ones used by most of the LMSs currently available. We (the cataloguing profession) are moving to a more distributed and disaggregated view of bibliographic metadata, in the direction of linked data where the focus is on the single statement (e.g. "This person is the creator of that work") rather than the record. See my presentation A short history of the evolution of the catalogue card (http://www.gordondunsire.com/pubs/pres/EvolCatRec.ppt) for more information. The utility of the record will remain, of course, but records will be assembled from statements which may have sources other than cataloguers, such as machines ("This Dewey number matches that LCSH"), publishers, or end-users ("This film is a comedy about librarians"). So I think it will be our long-term interests to use FRBR and RDA in all their glory, than to hold back because of the limitations of current library systems. I think it is particularly important that, where at all possible, we provide metadata at the finest level to support the widest range of uses. For example, many people regard the introductions to each episode of "Alfred Hitchcock presents" as works in their own right, and would, I guess, appreciate being able to find, identify, and obtain them as such. Of course, it can be difficult in practice to do this, especially during a period of transition. But I don't think it will matter in the end; presumably Hitchcock fans will do it for themselves, and someone else will link their "Alfred Hitchcock" entity to VIAF - but whither the cataloguing profession? Cheers Gordon -----Original Message----- From: CIG E-Forum [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Bernadette Mary O'Reilly Sent: 24 October 2012 12:30 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [CIG-E-FORUM] Discussion of record 2 Coming back very later to record 2: I very much hope that we will not go in the direction of making RDA related-work (7XX) AAPs in records for resources which are introductions, explanations, commentaries and criticisms of other works. We have to make subject headings for them, and that should be quite enough. 7XX would just be extra work and would make records unnecessarily long and confusing for readers. Even in electronic records size matters - people don't want to be scrolling all the time. Best wishes, Bernadette ******************* Bernadette O'Reilly Catalogue Support Librarian 01865 2-77134 Bodleian Libraries, Osney One Building Osney Mead Oxford OX2 0EW. ******************* -----Original Message----- From: CIG E-Forum [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Helen Doyle Sent: 24 October 2012 11:59 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [CIG-E-FORUM] Discussion of record 2 I'm not aware that AACR2 does anything like this, as this is pure FRBR. Also I am (sneakily) avoiding the MARC issue, as our LMS can't cope with it! HelenD. Helen Doyle Assistant Librarian Royal Academy of Dance 36 Battersea Square London SW11 3RA 0207 326 8032 >>> Nicky Ransom <[log in to unmask]> 10/24/2012 11:36 am >>> I can see what you mean. Is this a change from AACR2, or is it just that I haven't understood AACR2 properly, never mind RDA! If, for example, I'm cataloguing a manual about a computer program, I would ordinarily have put the name of the computer program in a 630 field (title subject). But it should also go in 740 as a related title? Nicky Ransom Data Quality Manager & Cataloguer University for the Creative Arts Farnham GU9 7DS 01252 892739 [log in to unmask] ________________________________________ From: CIG E-Forum [[log in to unmask]] on behalf of Helen Doyle [[log in to unmask]] Sent: 24 October 2012 11:28 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [CIG-E-FORUM] Discussion of record 2 I did wonder about this. RDA 25.1 defines a related work as "a work related to the resource being described (e.g., an adaptation, commentary, supplement, sequel, part of a larger work)" and Vanda's book is none of these. But, her book would not have been written if LCSH hadn't been written first - like the example of "Bored of the Rings" she took an existing Work and wrote her book around it, rather than just on the same subject. I've used this reasoning for other records later, so would be good to know if any else has any thoughts on this! HelenD. Helen Doyle Assistant Librarian Royal Academy of Dance 36 Battersea Square London SW11 3RA 0207 326 8032 >>> Nicky Ransom <[log in to unmask]> 10/24/2012 11:03 am >>> Is the relationship between the book and LCSH not one of subject, rather than Work? Nicky Ransom Data Quality Manager & Cataloguer University for the Creative Arts Farnham GU9 7DS examples like that in downloaded RDA records.