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Hi Mark, yes Mallarme' certainly maximizes on potential meanings, and as a translator often enough you have to choose sometimes only the one impoverished option. Though there are sometimes ways of suggesting what's lost. In this case 'Greeting' is certainly an option, but 'benison'? What made me question the idea of the translations being "as close as a non-Francophone reader is likely to get" was that, of course, there's always the possibility of something closer, but more significantly that this 'Salut' - and not necessarily to its discredit - didn't look as if it was particularly aiming for 'closeness'. (As for me, I'm only sort of semi-francophone - I can read French ok but Mallarme' often goes beyond my limits.) Anyway, I look forward to reading the book, Jamie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Weiss" <[log in to unmask]> To: <[log in to unmask]> Sent: Friday, October 19, 2012 3:17 PM Subject: Re: Peter Manson's Mallarme translations It's the usual problem with translation. As a poet whose poem I had translated from the Spanish pointed out to me once, "by x I meant both y and z--but I know that in English you have to choose." And Mallarme always intends every possible meaning. As you point out, one can make a case here for either choice, but the French is better. Do a quick comparison with other translations of say l'apres-midi" or "Le vierge le vivace..." You'll find lots of other choices at each juncture. But Alison is I think precisely right--this is as close as a non-francophone reader is likely to get. And for the francophone the translations create a dialogue like yours with the original. Finally, a translation is a reading of the poem, valuable as such but contestable. -----Original Message----- >From: Jamie McKendrick <[log in to unmask]> >Sent: Oct 19, 2012 7:43 AM >To: [log in to unmask] >Subject: Re: Peter Manson's Mallarme translations > >Hi Alison, sorry to catch this thread after it's already expired, but it >was >good to read an appreciative review of a poetry translation that pays such >close attention to what the translator is doing. Most often the translator >is made invisible by reviewers or if visible only to be subjected to an >onslaught of nit-picking. I hope it won't look like I'm indulging in the >same but Manson's version of 'Salut' doesn't look to me "as close you can >get to experiencing the intoxicating fascination of Mallarmé's work". >Translating the title 'Salut' as 'Greeting' rather than, say 'Toast' >already >loses a primary sense and context. (I'm sure Manson knows this, and maybe >the accompanying notes enlarge on the question.) When Mallarmé repeats >'salut' later, Manson uses 'benison' which is archaic and religiose, and >I'd >have thought moves the poem in awrong direction (whereas other twists like >'showboating', I agree, are playful and inventive). The play on the >'coupe - 'la coupe de champagne'? - with its foam (écume) which links cup >to boat and then opens up the sea and sail imagery with which the poem ends >is far harder to trace or even guess at in the translation. It's a tricky >question because the poem has a well-known history and was first read at a >dinner to fete the poet, but also used as an introductory poem for editions >of his work. Perhaps Manson is following Marchal here who sees Mallarmé >moving away from actual circumstance to "the poetic": "'Salut' n'est plus >un 'Toast' porté au septième banquet de La Plume, mais un salut initial au >lecteur, et une dédicace de l'oeuvre." Roger Pearson argues with this as >"not strictly true.because. 'Bibliographie' carefully added by Mallarmé at >the end of Poésies precisely reminds us of its textual history and >implicitly invites us to note and explore the relationship between >circumstance and finished poem." Though the > translation certainly has merits it seems to have effaced much of this > history and, on the level of word-choice and imagery, it left me somewhat > stranded. That said, anyone prepared to grapple with the complexities of > Mallarmé deserves a warm Salut. >Jamie > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Alison Croggon" <[log in to unmask]> >To: <[log in to unmask]> >Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2012 6:27 AM >Subject: Peter Manson's Mallarme translations > > >> Belatedly reviewed for Overland Journal: >> >> http://overland.org.au/blogs/poetry-fiction-reviews/2012/10/and-what-an-ear-on-mansons-mallarme/ >> >> xA >> >> -- >> Editor, Masthead: http://www.masthead.net.au >> Blog: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com >> Home page: http://www.alisoncroggon.com