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A fundamental difference between scientific methods and "other ways of knowing" lies in TESTABILITY of hypotheses and observations. Quantum physics - a paragon of the abstract thought - enjoys its reputation and credibility because of submitting its ideas to rigorous experimental testing, many of which stood the test of time. A paradox of science lies, however, in recognition of its FALLIBILITY- we know that what we know today will be revised in the future. "Other ways of knowing" typically claim immutable "truths". Yet, with all its fallibility and revisability, the accumulated human experience during last couple of millennia is pretty clear how to go about the problems we face. Ben Djulbegovic On Sep 28, 2012, at 10:23 PM, "Ayre Stephen (GEORGE ELIOT HOSPITAL NHS TRUST)" <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote: Dear all, I am not a philosopher, but I think this level of scepticism is impossible to live by. It would rule out all reports of scientific research written in journals, historical research and news reports (I haven't observed these things myself after all). It also assumes that my observations and reason are reliable (I assume that my own are, but what is the evidence?), and who decides what "is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all"? Is the latter a reliable filter of deciding whether something is true or not? Some degree of faith in reason, observations and dare I say it other people's reports is required to live life, whether it is acknowledged or not. The alternative is metaphysical and epistemological nihilism, which no one lives consistently. Apologies to everyone who finds epistemological arguments a bore, but they are absolutely foundational to all scientific endeavour. Kind regards, Stephen Stephen Ayre MA, MCLIP Clinical Librarian William Harvey Library George Eliot Hospital College Street Nuneaton Warwickshire CV10 7DJ 02476865464 (internal 3094) [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> Information, combined with the right support, is the key to better care, better outcomes and reduced costs. Equity and Excellence: Liberating the NHS. Department of Health, July 2010. 2.5 p.13. ________________________________ From: Evidence based health (EBH) [[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>] On Behalf Of Ronan Conroy [[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>] Sent: 27 September 2012 10:53 To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Teaching of complementary medicine to undergraduate medical students On 2012 MFómh 26, at 22:42, k.hopayian wrote: Their claims that the deaf will be able to hear, that paraplegics will walk again and that the terminally ill will have their cancer melt away can be tested by observation. Observation = a form of evidence. This then leaves us in the position of having a large body of observational evidence for miraculous cures through the intervention of saints. Clearly observation requires some sort of post-processing before it becomes evidence. So I thought I would add to the debate one of my favourite definitions of truth, which comes from the distant past, and which discusses the place of evidence in the wider context of truth: "Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it Do not believe in traditions, because they have been handed down for many generations Do not believe in anything, because it is spoken and rumoured by many Do not believe in anything, simply because it is found written in your books Do not believe in anything, merely on the authority of your teachers and elders But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it" This is a complex definition. It requires, as Dr Hopayian points out, observation, but also analysis. It also requires a process of integration between observation and underlying theory, but – and this is where it's an interesting definition for evidence based health – truth must entail benefit, and this benefit must entail the wider good, not just personal good. And, finally, truth, in this perspective, is not just knowledge but entails a lived commitment. The source? It is from the Kalama Sutta, one of the discourses attributed to the Buddha. Ronán Conroy [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> Associate Professor Division of Population Health Sciences Royal College of Surgeons in Ireland Beaux Lane House Dublin 2 ******************************************************************************************************************** This message may contain confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient please inform the sender that you have received the message in error before deleting it. 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